 Symbolic Links: Any way to defend yourself?, Are they crazy or merely insane? |
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 Aug 6 2007, 04:36 AM
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#51
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Running, running, running  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769  |
not entirely, no, but then, i dont think that ritual spellcasting is really needed, as a PC option either.
i also dont think the sole use of ritual spellcasting should make wards null and void |
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Aug 6 2007, 06:34 AM
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#52
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Since it comes into being inside the ward, how does it differ from a spell that is cast inside the ward? |
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Aug 6 2007, 07:06 AM
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#53
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
And if the Ward surounding the target affects the spell why doesn't the various background counts and wards scattered across the world also affect the spell?
In fact, as has been asked, forget fireball, how does firebolt work via Ritual Magic IF you assume spell travel? |
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Aug 6 2007, 07:33 AM
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#54
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
:applauds: Works for me. -K. |
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Aug 6 2007, 08:41 AM
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#55
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I can't really express it any better than Adarael. |
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Aug 6 2007, 10:46 AM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Ok, frankly I'm seeing alot of nonsensical rules-lawyering garbage in this thread, time to put it straight. In this response I'll referance previous editions (yes, the fluff logic of such in regards to magic should still hold between editions as nothing happened between '64 and '70 to change it) and common sense. Why? Because the SR4 rules on ritual sorcery in relation to wards are apparently as clear as mud.
This is correct. Ritual magic works based on the Law of Association (Sota 63, page 32) which states: If two subjects or objects have one or more factors in common, then they interact through those commonalities and facilitate control over one or the other. This means, that in targeting the sympathetic link ritually, the magician is actually targeting the ritual target (thus bypassing LOS). This does not mean that the effect simply teleports to the target and poofs into being however (no teleporting, remember?). Various folk are correct in stating that the spell does not travel from the ritual team to the target as well - you aren't going to see a lightning bolt ripping around the world to strike some schmuck (astrally or physically). However, this does not mean that the spell uses some mythical "third route" akin to a metaplanar shortcut to get to the target as Frank states. In fact, the spell doesn't get to the target at all. In all previous editions, ritual sorcery has been divided into two stages, the targeting and the actual sending (MitS page 37). This has been collapsed into one stage in SR4 to streamline the process - a mistake IMO. The targeting phase and test was the point in which the ritual team forged a functional magical link (made possible by the Law of Association) with the target. Logically, what is a magical link folks? A connection forged of mana. The same thing as a bond between a magician and his trusty power focus. When the link is forged, the second part of the ritual begins - the sending. What the sending does is builds the spell around the target, manipulating the ambient mana at the target's location to do so remotely via the ritual link. I bolded that because it is crucial to understanding how this works. As you can see, the spell doesn't teleport or "third way" to the target, but it is rather formed around the target remotely. The ritual link is vital to this process, just like the wireless signal between a jumped-in rigger and his drone is vital from him to run the drone. Since that link is composed of mana, it will be hindered by anything that prevents the motion of mana, just like jamming or other interference degrades the signal between the drone and the rigger. Physical walls don't do that, but magical barriers (lodges, barrier spells, and wards) do - it's what they are designed to do. When the time for the sending rolls around, too much interference in the link makes the formation of the actual spell effect more difficult, meaning impaired results (spell defense, btw works in the same manner (see SR4, page 176). In game terms, the ward's Force adds to the target's resistance dice pool, just like spell defense does. Now, why does all this work in SR4? Because we know that this link is present and can be viewed (and tracked) astrally: SR4, page 175 For the duration of the ritual, a link is present between the spotter’s astral form and the ritual group. If the spotter is noticed by the target, it is possible to use the link to track her back to the ritual team’s physical location. See Astral Tracking, p. 185. So, yes this means that Joe Wagemage can be walking down the street in MSP, look up (astrally perceiving) and see the ritual link between the Ritual Assassin Team in New York and their hapless victim in Seattle (logically, the link would take the shortest path of least resistance between the caster and target IMO). I would imagine this link would be very faint and hard to notice (5+ hits on an Assensing test) unless one was at either end of it, but it would logically be possible to notice it. Thus it is written, thus it has always been, thus it shall be. QED
Another unfortunate design choice IMO, since it takes the "location" of a spell from being clearly defined as the astral plane and puts it into some ill-defined in-between "place". IMO it would have been better to state that yes, spells have as astral form, but it is diffuse enough that it cannot be harmed in astral combat but rather only be undone by the Counterspelling skill. |
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Aug 6 2007, 11:25 AM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The closest you'll get to an official answer outside the FAQ is that Wards are "aspected disruption fields" affecting any external magic trying to affect anything within their boundries - once a ward is raised everything within the volume established by its boundries is "warded" (especifically on the physical and astral planes since wards are dual mana barriers).
I used "aspected" on purpose and I mean that wards are astral barriers specifically designed to interfere with magic being cast (and astral forms trying to break) into their area of effect (unlike, say, background counts/domains/mana static spells which affect all magic cast into and cast within their limits via the physical and astral planes) and not to interfere with magic cast within their limits (once inside those boundries all bets are off). Spells do not "travel" at all - directly or indirectly. Magic users focus mana into a spell effect - channelling it on the physical or astral planes and suffering Drain for it, "syncing" it with a target - and the effect simply manifests/comes into being at the point/aura/whatever chosen as a target. Furthermore, spells do not "go metaplanar" at any point when cast via ritual sorcery - in fact, spells cast on the physical plane do not even go astral. Whether its remotely formed at the target as NightmareX suggests or the targeting link forms an instant "wormhole" to the target doesn't really matter. Wards are designed to interfere with any mana effects from without affecting things within (regardless of whether this means disrupting the remote manipulation or disrupting the instant wormhole effect ) Astral spotting and/or sympathetic/symbolic linking simply replace the need for LOS during the targeting of a casting. Otherwise, the spell works as normal (ie. mana is instantly channeled to the intended target through the link established by LOS/astral spotting/sympathetic or symbolic linking). |
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Aug 6 2007, 11:39 AM
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#58
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
I'd avoided bringing SR2 into it, since that was the edition where you could physically fight the travelling spell construct on the astral. That was explicitly removed in SR3.
The original spun-off ritual magic/astral barriers thread |
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Aug 6 2007, 01:57 PM
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#59
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Insofar as writer's intention counts for anything, my intention with wards matches what Adarael and NightmareX said. The spell may be constructed at the ritual link inside the ward, but the link itself exists between the ritual object in the ritual team's possession and the sympathetic object within the ward. The ward still affects this linkage and consequently affects the ritual spellcasting.
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Aug 6 2007, 02:14 PM
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#60
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Is this the developers/writers collective intent on Ritual Spellcasting? Does a ward interfere with a spell cast from within that ward? Where is the point of origin of a ritual spell then? Can the spell originate from within the warded volume? |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:27 PM
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#61
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
No. I put writer's intention (note the singular possessive) in there intentionally. It is my intention only, which can be totally trumped by an official FAQ/errata statement. More of my personal intentions:
No.
Technically, the point of origin of a ritual spellcast would be at the sympathetic object (or its astral shadow).
It can, but the ability to remotely manipulate mana, which is what a ritual spellcast is doing, depends entirely on the strength of the sympathetic link, which is affected by the ward. As for whether my intention matches up with Peter's intention, I don't know. I haven't talked to Peter about this before. If he needs to overrule me with an official statement, that's cool by me. |
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Aug 6 2007, 02:34 PM
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#62
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
And I quoted Peter's post as well intentionally. What is the point of origin for a astral spotter ritual spell? |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:00 PM
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#63
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Mechanically, this should work similar to a normal, non-ritual spellcast. The spotter is choosing a target using line-of-sight, and the point of origin for the spell is at the chosen target. Note that a ward can prevent him from picking a useful target, though. |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:16 PM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Awesome, this is perfect thanks! So the bottom line answer to my original question would be: "Wards do subtract their rating from all spellcasting and ritual spellcasting tests against a target who is inside the warded volume from outside the warded volume." Followup questions:
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Aug 6 2007, 03:25 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
No. The target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to their resistance dice pool. |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:31 PM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As the lead developer on Street Magic, Jay's approach matches my own.
Agreed. See my earlier post.
To clarify: while Jay is correct about the spell using the sympathetic link to target someone, however the "point of origin" of a ritual spell is actually where it is for any spell at whoever is casting it, and in the case of ritual spells that's the ritual leader (and not the astral spotter since spotters aren't strictly necessary). |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:37 PM
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#67
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
So you're saying that a normal ritual spell cast through an astral spotter would have to get the spotter through the ward (because the ward is astrally opaque and the spotter cannot spot through it), and then the spellcasting would be opposed by the ward anyway? That sounds an awful lot like double jeopardy. -Frank |
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Aug 6 2007, 03:59 PM
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#68
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
That's my interpretation. Obviously, the best time to use ritual sorcery is when the target is not inside a ward. |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:04 PM
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#69
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Wait. If you get your spotter inside the ward, then the target doesn't get the bonus from the ward? You just lost any kind of credibility. Either, he should get the bonus always on spells incoming to him that weren't cast from inside the ward. Or he shouldn't get it on ritual spells.
Not, he gets it on ritual spells unless they get the spotter inside the ward. Why? Because, whats connecting the spotter to the ritual? A link! A link that someone can astrally follow. So, why wouldn't the ward impact that link the same as the sympathetic link. It would. Which, by your logic here, is that it does nothing to a spotter's link, and the sympathetic magic is a spotting link, thusly, it does nothing to sympathetic magic links either. Huzzah! |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:12 PM
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#70
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The mistake is here:
The point of origin is still the ritual team, casting through the link - thus being hindered by the ward. If the spotter casts a spell himself, he would not be hindered in doing so... but usually, he wouldn't be able to cast at all, since usually he is astral and his target is physical. |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:12 PM
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#71
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Where did I say that? No, if you get the spotter inside the ward, they can pick a valid target without worrying about the opaque barrier preventing them from seeing where the spell should be cast. That's all. |
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Aug 6 2007, 04:14 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'll quote myself from the thread Talia made on the subject...
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Aug 6 2007, 04:15 PM
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#73
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, sorry, I think the confusion here is due to a misinterpretation of what was meant by "point of origin." |
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Aug 6 2007, 11:56 PM
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#74
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
This implies that the spotter could try to cast from outside the ward, which is not the case. The ward is astrally opaque and the spotter cannot send the spell through the ward. The spotter has to go through the ward, at which point what exactly is the point of Ritual Spellcasting? Once on the inside of the ward he could simply drop all his spirits in to materialize. There's no penalty for that, so why should there be a penalty for having him channel a spell from a itual team? -Frank |
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Aug 7 2007, 12:41 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
1st quote response: If the point of origin for the ritual spell is within the ward, which I realize you disagree with, then why would the ward even matter? To say that the ward somehow affects ritual spells is to say it is somehow going through the ward. How is the ward affecting the ritual spell? How is the ritual spell being cast through the ward? The only way I can think of a ward making a ritual test more difficult is if it affected the mana INSIDE the ward. But we know it does not. So, if the mana inside the ward is just as good as the mana outside, why would it hinder a ritual caster? Its the mana that matters, not what is in between, because there is no path the spell takes. Of course, this is bearing in mind that the point of origin is the link, which I believe to make the most sense. 2nd quote response: If the point of origin is the ritual leader then how does the spell get from point A to point B? The spell would be forming at the ritual caster, correct? If the spell is forming at the ritual caster, how does it get to the link? I think it makes more sense that the ritual leader is remotely manipulating magic at the point of origin, this point of origin being wherever the link is. In my opinion, the point of origin for any spell, is wherever the mana is being manipulated. |
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