 Called shots, Forgive me....... |
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 Nov 18 2003, 06:41 AM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Good ole Funkie. But can you, Kage, categorically say that 6's pop up all the time in your games, but 2s, 3s, or 8s almost never do? That sounds a bit odd, too. Oops, BitBasher, it SHOULD have said "even harder". |
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Nov 18 2003, 06:42 AM
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#52
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, I can't. 2s and 3s are rare, 6s are fairly common, 8s are quite common indeed (though less than 6s).
~J |
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Nov 18 2003, 06:59 AM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 9-November 03 Member No.: 5,806 |
I will mention that... by passing makes flechette ammo a bit over powered.. and the AVS the most ultimate gun. Why... Flechette double impact and you pick which is better to defend with, also dermal armor reduce the Damge... well.. what happens when you an armor target you say? "Call shot, unarmored spot! look +4 to TN, take aim -1 to aim, look internal smartgun -2. Short Range.. look a net TN of 5 to hit with 9S, now if you did a BF burst with no recoil comp that is a 8 TN, but still that is 12D now... nasty nasty.. and that target is gunna resist that how? |
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Nov 18 2003, 07:01 AM
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#54
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh, the AVS is already the most ultimate gun. Didn't you hear? It's required to be by law. After all, it's Molly's gun.
~J |
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Nov 18 2003, 07:47 AM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If it's really a problem for you, lower the TN penalty to only +2 or +3 to make it a more attractive offer. Just about anything along those lines are better than ignoring armor completely (and you'll note that even with the FAQs, you're still not making a Called Shot against a specific body part; you're just either increasing Damage or ignoring armor... it's still "abstract" in that regard -- so even if you're opponent is wearing Form Fitting Body Armor complete with hood and gloves, you can still ignore all of it).
Now if you want to go through and completely recalculate every piece of armor relative to what portion of the body it's protecting, and assume that antagonists are always shooting at center mass (and thus the chest) and thus greatly increase the armor ratings for those locations... then apply a house rule to ignore armor in a specific region, I wouldn't see as much of a problem there. At least then you're making a genuine attempt to add realism to the game. But just ignoring armor and that's that... ughers. |
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Nov 18 2003, 12:00 PM
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#56
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
*Reads everything above* Alternative called shot rule? How about this then? Just an idea. When making a called shot the character tries to do ONE of three things. 1. Hit a spot where there is less armor to maximize damage 2. Hit a more vulnerable spot on a target (Damage code +1 but full armor) 3. Cause a “special effect” 1. Hit a spot with less armor The character can reduce the targets armor value with -1 to -4 but receive a +1-+4 to their TN to hit depending on how much armor they want to remove. 2. Hit a more vulnerable spot. The character aims for the targets left eye, groin, kidneys etc but does not try to hit a more vulnerable spot in the armor, just the body. +4 to TN to hit. 3. Special effect. The character receives a +4 TN to hit a specific spot, item etc (GM decides) The first one is the one with most change. Instead of a flat +4 to hit the character can choose what part of the armor he wants to shoot at. Waddya think? |
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Nov 18 2003, 12:47 PM
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#57
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I posted something similar, based on the quick Cyberpunk table.
Options include: +X Staging +X to Power Bypass armor Special effect *reduced strength/quickness for limb hits *checks to remain standing *to hold onto something *unconsciousness *and so on -Siege Edit: Just to keep it interesting and to reflect wound shock, All head shots are base power + 1d6. So a head shot from a Colt Manhunter would result in a 9 + 1d6 M before staging. Sorry, it's early. :spin: |
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Nov 18 2003, 01:20 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Wow. I mean, wow. Not many people on this board left who haven't seen the Light of Reason, then. :D |
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Nov 18 2003, 02:29 PM
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#59
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
The best use of the called shot is the surprise sniper, after all :)
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Nov 18 2003, 02:32 PM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I tried this at one point... it doesn't work out too well. Mainly because you have to add in so many hit locations to make it realistic. Front torso, back torso, legs, arms, and head are the default from the cyberlimb rules, but those don't take into account mismatched arm/leg armor or the difference in the rating of a helmet's faceplate as opposed to the rest of it. What you generally end up with is that most people are relatively invulnerable to damage in one or two spots and very vulnerable in the rest (take the case of a vest with armor plates and a helmet, for instance). |
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Nov 18 2003, 02:58 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Realism != thousands of hit locations. I am/was using several house rules for the combat system, one of them was an easy hit location system (Torso, Head, Arms, Legs), which, compared to the official abstract system (which, when combined with all aspects of called shots (cybertorso, chemical warfare & melee), becomes ridiculous IMHO), worked very good to simulate certain effects of the real world (to a specific degree of course, smooth gameplay is very important). SYL |
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Nov 18 2003, 03:31 PM
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#62
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
The TN for this has to be more variable, I think. For instance, shooting someone in the eye is going to be tougher than shooting someone in the leg or the head. But aside from that, I do allow for those sorts of shots. Normally I err on the side of too many penalties, but since only gunbunnies generally feel confident enough to shoot off trigger fingers, its usually not a huge concern. |
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Nov 18 2003, 03:57 PM
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#63
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
It breaks down at eight. I don't define hit locations as parts of the bodies, but areas where armor values may be radically different. In general, these are the front and back torso, left and right legs, left and right arms, skull, and face. You can merge the arms and legs together to get just six locations, which works better, but you still end up with very high values in some cases. Though, looking at it now, it seems more reasonable than it does the last time I played with it (particularly reduced down to six locations). The average security helmet provides 6 ballistic and 12 impact armor, probably 4/8 skull 2/4 face. That certainly seems reasonable. An armored long coat would provide 24/12 probably 8/4 torsos and 4/2 legs and arms. Again, reasonable. Hmm... |
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Nov 18 2003, 04:17 PM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Eh? I wouldn't call 24/12 reasonable! That's enough to easily stop an Assault Cannon round! HitLoc wise, I use 3d6 for determining hit loc (when not a CS), with areas like pelvis, abdomen, chest separated. Generally it doesn't matter where in the torso a round hits, and legs and arms are not separated into smaller units. To figure out for yourself what kind of ratings different suits of armor should have, read up on real world armor. For example, yes, an Armored Vest + Plates could easily be justified as having, say, 10 points of armor in the chest, abdoment and back (since RL vests with plates can stop anything up to and including armor piercing light/med rifle rounds). But stopping Barret or Assault Cannon rounds? No gawd damn way. If you want reasonable ratings, look on Raygun's site for clues. Or I could put up my numbers again, they've worked wonderfully so far and (except for the weights) they are quite realistic, too. |
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Nov 18 2003, 04:27 PM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Nonono, that's 24/12 points of armor total. Over the four locations it covers. This is going off the simple algorithm of:
While it's 24/12 in the sense that it's 4 * 6 / 4 * 6 total points, the actual values would be: Front torso 8/3 Rear torso 8/3 Arms 4/2 Legs 4/2 Armor tends to be lighter on arms and legs to retain flexibility and most powerful in the torso. A long coat doesn't cover the head at all, so notice how the face and skull are unprotected. A vest with plates would have 4/3 * 6 or 24/18 points of armor to work with. That'd probably lead to something like: Front torso 14/10 Rear torso 10/8 That would stop a burst of ex-ex ammo from a Thunderbolt (TN 2 to soak) if the shots hit the torso front or a normal heavy pistol round to the back (TN 2 to soak). |
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Nov 18 2003, 04:30 PM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Actually a Smartlink-2 is one of the few reasons Called Shots are a viable option. Say you have some of unremarkable but admirable skill (4) using a base TN of 4 (since a 6 is apparently "extreme"). For the sake of this discussion, he's all out of Combat Pool, too, and is making one last, desperate shot with his heavy pistol to save his hide. Also note that Smartlink-2s not only reduce general TNs by -2 but also make Called Shots cost only +2 instead of +4. With the first shot Mr. Example takes a regular shot at the goon who's just standing there in the open. His final TN is 2 (base 4 -2 Smartlink), and he manages 3 successes with his 4 dice. His shot is staged up one Damage Level, making it only a Serious shot with a bit of a possibility of making it Deadly if he got lucky and didn't roll a single 1. In an alternate universe, Mr. Example W. Goatee decided to make a called shot in the same scenario. His final TN is 4 (base 4, +2 Called, -2 Smartlink), and he manages 2 successes his with his 4 dice. His shot is staged up two Damage Levels, making it a Deadly shot. |
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Nov 18 2003, 04:44 PM
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#67
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Just for the sake of conversation here, I don't think 6 or 8 as TN's are remotely extreme. In firefights I rarely see TN's go less than 6. Cover alone can make a 2 an 8 or higher if you both take cover.
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Nov 18 2003, 04:48 PM
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#68
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Indeed.
~J |
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Nov 18 2003, 04:54 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That works out okay. Will stop any normal small-arm round, but a sniper rifle + APDS will still ruin your day. Then the next problem is that pistols shouldn't penetrate anywhere near as well as rifles, and something like the Barret 121 or HMGs should always penetrate just about any form of body armor even with normal rounds. (Assault) Rifles penetrate a lot more in my games than they do in canon, pistols a lot less, and generic bad-guy vests have ratings 4/2 in the whole torso area (shouldn't really protect the pelvic area, but I haven't really decided anything on that yet), best flexible vests are at 6/3 and best plates are at 6/5, so the best possible total you can have for abdomen/chest without mil-spec+ plated armor is 12/8, which is just enough to stop AP 7.62x51 rounds. And just 2 games ago, our most "tank-ish" char (Body 6/8 for damres) got nailed in the chest with a 3-round burst of heavy AR AP rounds while wearing Form Fitting + Plated Mil-Spec Torso (= 14/8 ), and ended up at D+1. (Critical location on the 3d6 +1DL, 12S with -5 Armor, 7 successes, for 3D+7 successes). So with a bit of common sense, rules like these definitely do not make characters invulnerable in some locations (like I think someone claimed earlier in the thread). [Edit]I did not mean "extreme" as in "does not happen a lot", I meant that 6 is the extreme example of a starting TN where Calling a Shot may lead to more damage on average. It is THE one TN that you can really use to portray CSing as a sensible tactic in firefights. You could perhaps use 12 as well, but that would be quite silly. And SL-2 certainly makes Calling Shots a far more viable tactic. No arguments there. But that still doesn't explain why we need CSs... :P[/Edit] [Edit #2]
His chances of NOT rolling a single 1 are 52%. So in fact he would be unlucky if he did. Or something. The example still holds though, in that situation CSing would probably lead to more damage on average, depending of course on CP 'n all.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 18 2003, 05:03 PM |
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Nov 18 2003, 05:13 PM
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#70
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
48.23% by my calculations ;) |
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Nov 18 2003, 05:28 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Oops! You're right. So he would indeed be lucky not to roll a 1. How about that...
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Nov 18 2003, 05:28 PM
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#72
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Regardless, if you have plenty of time to aim (such as sniping someone from a book depository, or waiting for some target to get into range of your pistol while you're hiding in the bushes) a Called Shot is well worth the effort, Smartlink-2 or not.
Called Shots aren't something I, personally, would want to do in the heat of a firefight unless there was something incredibly vital that had to be shot (and even in those cases, it's rarely a person and more like a light fixture or something). If you have time to stop and aim while resting on your laurels during a fight, you're either setting up an ambush or not in a very threatening fight anyway. In the former case, you should have time to aim quite nicely and reduce that +4/+2 penalty. In the latter, you might as well just shoot twice instead of once. At least that's how I usually look at Called Shots when I get a chance to play. |
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Nov 18 2003, 05:31 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I agree completely. Called Shots very rarely happen when someone's shooting back in our games, even though 2 out of 3 chars are gunbunnies that average 21+ init and have SL2+Artwink+Rifles6 and the enemies are mostly gangers and low-average sec guards.
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Nov 18 2003, 05:50 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 30-March 03 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 4,355 |
The called shot debate here is great!
With the advent of the Smartgun Link 2, my players have been making called "Head Shots" at +2 target numbers. With the -2 from the smartgun link bringing the base target number back down to 4 they have been dealing out death since the majority of opponenets aren't wearing helmets. If I give the characters a bit of the same, they tend to insta-die. Instead, I have added an additional +2 target number modifier for any "head shots" and justified it by using the Partial Cover Table from pg, 98, CC. (+6 modifier if you are only firing at 1% - 25% of your target). |
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Nov 18 2003, 05:55 PM
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#75
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
...and yet if you simply followed the core rules, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
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