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Bearclaw
I remember reading in a previous discussion, called shots can be used to bypass armor? Is there a reference for this or is it a house rule?
Shockwave_IIc

[EDIT] Should really read the FAQ more often [/EDIT]
mfb
the faq at shadowrunrpg.com says that you can do one of three things with a called shot: raise the damage level, bypass armor, or do a special effect. whether this is an official ruling is debatable. or, at least, it's been debated. i'd reccomend against debating it further.
Kagetenshi
Indeed. Unless you're using chemtech application gear, in which case check out Man and Machine and Cannon Companion.

~J
moosegod
I seem to recall that mfb's post is in the main rules.
Ol' Scratch
No, it's an optional rule that only refers to special attacks such as Ares Squirt pistols and whatnot. The core rule is that a Called Shot boosts the Damage Level by +1 at a +4 TN penalty. You cannot aim for a specific area on anything smaller than a vehicle, which includes metahuman targets. SR3, p. 114. The rules there are quite clear on the subject. You're not making a "Called Shot to the head" or anywhere else specific; like everything else in the game, it's abstract. You're aiming at a more vulnerable spot on the target in the hopes of doing more damage. Because that spot is very likely to be harder to hit (not aiming for center mass = more chances to miss), your chance for missing increases. Simple.

As previously mentioned, a lot of people here use the (in my opinion, horribly lame and broken) house rule to the contrary with no consideration to the fact that things like armor are abstract. To them, the flimsy piece of material that makes up the hood of Form Fitting Body Armor (Ballistics 4) is equal to the heavy plates and kevlar of an Armored Vest w/ Plates (Ballistics 4), even though they're both Ballistics 4 because the former covers the entire body with a light amount of armor while the latter protects a smaller portion with a ton of armor, yet they apparently have exactly the same stopping force in their "more realistic" house rule. In their attempts to achieve realism without applying it to everything else in the game (at least as it applies to the change), they end up with something ten times more absurd. But to each their own.

If you insist on using a house rule of that nature, that's totally groovy. Just don't try and tell other people it's a core rule.
RedmondLarry
The official Shadowrun FAQ describes using a Called Shot with a ranged attack such that the target only uses the Armor at the targeted location but there is no Staging Up of damage. Many dislike this ruling. More detail is described below, along with links to previous discussions on this topic.

=============

The main SR3 book describes a Called Shot against a character in general terms, without the shooter having to specify what part of the body is targeted. The damage level of such a shot is raised by one level. It also describes a called shot against a subtarget of something vehicle-sized or larger where the shooter names what part is being targeted (SR3 p. 114 and 149) and though there is no damage-level increase, the GM determines the affect depending on what part is hit and how well.

Other books give additional options for Called Shots against subtargets of a character. In such attacks the shooter names what part is being shot at. The following three situations are described.

(1) Cannon Companion, p. 85, "Called Shot". An optional advanced melee combat rule. If using this rule, such an attack only considers the armor at the targeted location.

(2) Man and Machine, p. 35. Describes Cyberware Armor (Body Plating) that can be built into cyber limbs/torsos/skulls. For normal shots, the average rating across these 5 areas is added to worn armor. For shots targeting a specific location, use the Body Plating rating of the cyber limb/torso/skull at that location instead of averaging that rating with other locations.

(3) Man and Machine, p. 106, "Exposure Via Weapons, Called Shot" in the section on Drug Rules. A successful Called Shot ranged attack with a chemical weapon, such as a dartgun or squirtgun, to a non-armored location will nullify any impact armor worn. If the weapon also causes damage, the damaging part of the shot either negates armor or stages the damage level, but not both.

Previous threads discussing these issues:
Called Shots

The New OLD Called Shot Thread

called shot

Called Shot, Not Again

Called Head Shots (137 replies)
Bearclaw
I read the FAQ, so I now understand why everyone says the Sliver gun is so overpowered.
Ol' Scratch
...
Kagetenshi
Ooh! Ooh! Silvergun reference! Can we start the flamewar now or do we have to wait the customary fifty or so replies first?

~J
Cochise
biggrin.gif Funny enough that the FAQ is what actually (re-?)creates that "Slivergun Insanity" in the first place ...
But who am I to critizise Rob for transfering rules from very specific rule sections into the general combat section in his FAQ? twirl.gif
nezumi
Those rules are sooo unfair! I have a dikoted AVS pistol which shoots out free spirits, and they can do called shots under melee combat rules, so that means I can do 10D,FL(stun) damage with each shot.

Sorry... I had too much fun reading over the archives... munchkins amuse me so. : P
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Cochise)
But who am I to criticize Rob...
You are a poster on Dumpshock. Therefore it is your job. Don't fret if it feels like a menial job. Many appear to think it is their calling in life, and perhaps even a noble calling. wink.gif
Cochise
QUOTE (OurTeam)
QUOTE (Cochise)
But who am I to criticize Rob...
You are a poster on Dumpshock. Therefore it is your job.

*rofl* Unfortunately for there's more to it than just being a poster on this board ...

QUOTE
Don't fret if it feels like a menial job.  Many appear to think it is their calling in life, and perhaps even a noble calling.  wink.gif


I can only hope that it doesn't turn into a crusade twirl.gif
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (OurTeam)
The official Shadowrun FAQ describes using a Called Shot with a ranged attack such that the target only uses the Armor at the targeted location but there is no Staging Up of damage. Many dislike this ruling.

No, no it doesn't. The current FAQ ruling states that a called shot bypasses ALL armor on the target. A second part of the ruling seems to indicate that the idea behind the ruling is as you suggest, but the way the ruling actually reads, it does not take into account armor over the targeted location unless the shooter wants it to.

QUOTE (FAQ)
The attack bypasses the target's armor. In this case, the attack's Damage Code is not modified, but the Power is not reduced by armor bonuses. (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies).
Kagetenshi
Every so often we should all go and yell at Rob for five minutes beginning at 4:15 PM local time.

~J
RedmondLarry
We all know that it requires effort to write unambiguous English, and the more complicated the issue the more effort it requires. TinkerGnome, I agree that your interpretation of the FAQ is a perfectly valid interpretation of the English that is written, but the intention of the writer is the important issue.

Now please, as an exercise, try reading the FAQ words again with the assumption that the words in parenthesis are not a different way to make a Called Shot, but an attempt by the writer to clarify the intention of the prior sentence. Words in parenthesis should not introduce a new rule but are commonly used to for clarification. Now ask yourself what you believe the intention of the writer is. You may come up with the same answer, you may not. Either way, it's a useful exercise.

Personally, I think the writer intends to let the shooter bypass armor if he/she can find an unarmored spot large enough to shoot at, and the words in parenthesis are the writer's attempt to clarify for the situation where all the spots big enough to shoot have some armor.

Luckily, since the writer is still alive someone can ask him if he can recall what his intention was and ask him to clarify it. But I think we'd rather disagree in our postings for the sheer joy of it. (At least it appears to me that I would rather disagree with you than ask Rob. Hmmm. What does that say about me. Let me go ponder myself.)
BitBasher
I pondered myself once. It was great! biggrin.gif
TinkerGnome
When I read the rule as written, I can't help but think "I think he isn't saying what he wants to say."

I am not on a crusade to get the rule changed, but rather one to get the wording of the rule to be in line with the spirit of it. The fact of the matter is, it's a simple FAQ. It's not a book or other ink document where what's written is unchangable. The wording should simply be changed to reflect what is supposed to be there. Mail has been sent about the issue several times in reguards to previous threads about this topic (some of which are no longer on the boards because they devolved into pointless namecalling).

While I agree that the second point is probably meant as a clarification, it is not written as one.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Every so often we should all go and yell at Rob for five minutes beginning at 4:15 PM local time.

~J

Would that be 4:15PM local time for each person on Dumpshock or 4:15PM local time where Rob lives? One has the benefit of bothering him hourly (with a few exceptions), while the other is a sudden burst of loudness.
Kagetenshi
I was thinking his local time, but if we decide we really don't like Rob we can have it be all of our local times smile.gif

~J
Bearclaw
I think that there needs to be a way to by-pass armor. Maybe use the rule, but no SGL bonuses?
Kagetenshi
Why does there need to be a way to bypass armor, APDS notwithstanding?

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
Why does there need to be a way to bypass armor, APDS notwithstanding?

And why does there need to be a way to call a shot to increase damage level?

Neither is very common in real firefights, but apparently they are about equally uncommon (this from articles of police shootouts and similar accounts of firefights, feel free to provide counter-evidence).
Kagetenshi
So as to provide the opportunity for a low-skill character to make a low-probability shot against a more skilled opponent and possibly take them out.

~J
Ol' Scratch
There doesn't need to be a way to bypass armor because actually hitting the target means you've bypassed it. Either in part (Light Wound) or in whole (Deadly Wound) based upon your skill (dice) and accuracy (successes).

If you didn't bypass armor, you'd rarely ever have a chance of hurting your opponent because the armor will have stopped it. There wouldn't be target number (at least not one anything like what it is currently). That's why various types of armors have similar ratings. Form Fitting Body Armor has a Ballistics of 4 not because it's as tough and resisilant as an Armored Vest w/ Plates, but because it covers a greater part of his body. That Armored Vest w/ Plates might have a more accurate rating of Ballistics 20 on its own, but because it onyl covers your chest and back, it's only benefit is a Ballistics rating of 4. Yet you have the same exact chance of damaging someone in one or the other because of that very reason.

The reason, once again, that a Called Shot raises the Damage Level by one is because you're intentionally aiming for a more vulnerable spot. It could be a weak spot in the armor, an unarmored area, or just about anything else. However, since you're not aiming at center mass, your chance of missing completely increases, hence the +4 TN penalty to your attack roll (as opposed to his Dodge/Damage Resistance roll).

This is why Shadowrun is considered an abstract system. You do all the rolls and tests, then you determine just what happened based upon those results. Did you just nail the guy with a Deadly shot that took him down? Well, using the Armored Vest / Form Fitting examples above, that Deadly shot would probably be a blow to the Armored Vest guy's unprotected head, while that same Deadly shot might have been a chest wound on the Form Fitting guy... a chest shot that punched right through his relatively flimsy armor.
BitBasher
Funky is right, thats the entire basis for an abstract combat system. Try to change part of it to make it specific and it comes apart in far more dyslexic ways.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
So as to provide the opportunity for a low-skill character to make a low-probability shot against a more skilled opponent and possibly take them out.

So as to provide the opportunity for a character with a low-powered weapon to make a low-probability shot against a heavily armored opponent and possibly take them out.

I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, maybe I'm just silly because of sleep deprevation or something, but I can't see any more reasons for +DL called shots than for +Penetration called shots. I do admit that the rules accomodate the former much (much, much) better, but I can't see any more "need" for it than for the latter.
Kagetenshi
But you already have that, unless the armor is hardened. That's why the rules for shotguns are so broken: set the choke to maximum, and your opponent will be resisting 2D with as many successes as you have dice behind it (because of the -9 to TN).
Remember, non-hardened armor only goes so far, and "so far" is 2.

~J
Bearclaw
I was just thinking about the armor thing.
A burst from a sliver gun against a guy in a regulation armor jacket still does 6D. Plus success. Holy crap.
That being given, I'm going to allow the origonal called shot rule, but not allow the bypass armor rule because the rules are kinda weak already on armor.
Kagetenshi
Psst... can we not mention the "s" word? It's looking like we might not have to break out the fireblankets...

~J
Austere Emancipator
But, even without the Called Shot system, you already have a system for having a small chance of doing more damage with a low-skilled shooter to a more skilled opponent. Just roll more successes -> more damage.

Oh, what the heck, I don't use any of the rules that this whole discussion is based on, so I fold. And you're all completely correct in that it's a very bad idea to use armor-bypassing called shots in a canon SR game. I don't really have a point, I was just rambling so I wouldn't have to prepare for this gawd damn Approaches to Contemporary Narrative oral presentation. And I finished that already, so I'll go away.
Ol' Scratch
No it doesn't. It does 7M. 9S(f) base, reduced to 9M because flechette isn't staged up against armor, +3 Power for a burst, -5 Power from the Jacket. 7M. Or am I misremembering yet again?
Ol' Scratch
And Austere, the point of the Called Shot is to make up for a lack of successes. Save you only have a Skill of 3 and no Combat Pool left. Your shot is almost definitely going to have a minimal amount of effect anyway, so why not boost your TN up by +4 to gain the effect of 2 free successes if you do manage to make it?
Austere Emancipator
Only a bit. -6 Power from the AJ (double Impact). So it's 6M. [Edit #2]Right, 6S. Oh well...[/Edit] Not much of a difference, but meh.

[Edit]Doing a bit of math, it's probably going to turn out that in most cases, unless you are insanely lucky, you have a better chance of getting the +1 DL from extra successes than from scoring a success with +4 TN.

And now I'm going to bed, and I declare that You Other People were right all along, and that I'm a stupid motherfragger who should never be allowed to write anything.[/Edit]
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 17 2003, 06:05 PM)
Or am I misremembering yet again?

I think you missed one stage of damage level, leading to a 6S final value. Unless there is some special case with flechette rounds that I am ignoring right now.

[edit to include Austere's correction]
Kagetenshi
Yep, he forgot a staging.

~J
Ol' Scratch
Oops, I did forget the staging. The only key things the Slivergun has going for it over, say, the Savalette (a personal favorite simply because it's more stylish, and I like style) is that it can fire in BF twice per phase, has a silencer, and a better clip. The latter never meant much to me (if you need that many shots at one time, you're a dead man already), the former is only useful if you're going to do nothing but shoot and make a nice little target for everyone else, and the middle is... just wrong. smile.gif Shoulda been a supressor. But oh well.

QUOTE
Doing a bit of math, it's probably going to turn out that in most cases, unless you are insanely lucky, you have a better chance of getting the +1 DL from extra successes than from scoring a success with +4 TN.


Two successes at a TN of, say, 6 versus one success at a TN of 10... I'd rather try for the one success at 10 than three at 6 with only three dice.
Bearclaw
The not staging up against armor is what brought up the whole discussion biggrin.gif
If you call shot at an unarmored area, it's not an armored opponent, and he's got to resist a 12D wound with no armor.

By skipping that, and using the called shot rule, with SGL bonuses, a called shot ends up with a TN of 6, and the target (with armor jacket) resists a 6D.

Wait, forgot recoil. A TN of 10, to do a 6D.
Kagetenshi
Remember, getting two dice to roll a 6 is the same difficulty as getting one die to roll a 12. You've essentially just swapped a TN of 12 for one of 10.

~J
tisoz
I know it isn't a rule, but if someone makes a called shot to a smaller part of a target, shouldn't the target get a TN reduction on its dodge test? It only needs to get that one part out of the way.
Ol' Scratch
That's really already covered by the +4 TN. Fewer successes mean fewer successes needed to dodge the attack completely.
BitBasher
Yeah, the +4 TM means the dodge dice are far more effective because you need to use far less of them. Odds are that increasing your TN is just going to screw you. Much for the same reason that melee maneuvers thad increase your own target number to do extra damage are absolutely short bus retarded.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Two successes at a TN of, say, 6 versus one success at a TN of 10... I'd rather try for the one success at 10 than three at 6 with only three dice.

That's the extreme situation. On the other end you've got, for example, TN 2 vs TN 6 where your chances to roll 3 successes without a Called Shot are the same as rolling a single success with CS, and rolling 2 without are far better.
Kagetenshi
AE, I'd call that an extreme example. If you've got 3 skill, odds are you aren't a gun-bunny, which means you probably aren't smartlinked.

~J
Austere Emancipator
Laser Sight, Take Aim. The same applies with 3 vs 7, 8 vs 12, and so on. The point is, there are many TNs where not CSing leads to making more damage, there are many where they'll probably lead to about the same, and then a few where CSing would lead to more. And like pointed out by BitBasher, the fact that dodging a CS is easier makes it even easier to kill a high-skilled char with a low-skiller char through CSing.
Ol' Scratch
Extreme example? It's a base TN of 4 with a single +2 mod to it for whatever mild conditions you want to apply. Yes, how "extreme." ohplease.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE
And like pointed out by BitBasher, the fact that dodging a CS is easier makes it even easier to kill a high-skilled char with a low-skiller char through CSing.
Wrong conclusion. it makes it HARDER for a low skill character to kill anyone with a Called Shot because you need far less dodge dice to get out for the way and avoid the attack completely.

There is basically no normal situation when a called shot will do more damage than a normal shot. 4 TN in this game is HUGE.

Kagetenshi
Maybe I'm in the minority not usually seeing TNs of 2 even with Smartlinks, but yes, that is an extreme example.
I'm happy for you that your targets like to stand still for you.

~J

Edit: BitBasher, sometimes people run out of combat pool.
TheScamp
And sometimes they don't know you're shooting at them.
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