Full Version: Called shots
| QUOTE |
| Extreme example? It's a base TN of 4 with a single +2 mod to it for whatever mild conditions you want to apply. Yes, how "extreme." |
Good ole Funkie.
But can you, Kage, categorically say that 6's pop up all the time in your games, but 2s, 3s, or 8s almost never do? That sounds a bit odd, too.
Oops, BitBasher, it SHOULD have said "even harder".
No, I can't. 2s and 3s are rare, 6s are fairly common, 8s are quite common indeed (though less than 6s).
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Indeed. Unless you're using chemtech application gear, in which case check out Man and Machine and Cannon Companion. ~J |
I will mention that... by passing makes flechette ammo a bit over powered.. and the AVS the most ultimate gun. Why... Flechette double impact and you pick which is better to defend with, also dermal armor reduce the Damge... well.. what happens when you an armor target you say? "Call shot, unarmored spot! look +4 to TN, take aim -1 to aim, look internal smartgun -2. Short Range.. look a net TN of 5 to hit with 9S, now if you did a BF burst with no recoil comp that is a 8 TN, but still that is 12D now... nasty nasty.. and that target is gunna resist that how?
Oh, the AVS is already the most ultimate gun. Didn't you hear? It's required to be by law. After all, it's Molly's gun.
~J
~J
If it's really a problem for you, lower the TN penalty to only +2 or +3 to make it a more attractive offer. Just about anything along those lines are better than ignoring armor completely (and you'll note that even with the FAQs, you're still not making a Called Shot against a specific body part; you're just either increasing Damage or ignoring armor... it's still "abstract" in that regard -- so even if you're opponent is wearing Form Fitting Body Armor complete with hood and gloves, you can still ignore all of it).
Now if you want to go through and completely recalculate every piece of armor relative to what portion of the body it's protecting, and assume that antagonists are always shooting at center mass (and thus the chest) and thus greatly increase the armor ratings for those locations... then apply a house rule to ignore armor in a specific region, I wouldn't see as much of a problem there. At least then you're making a genuine attempt to add realism to the game. But just ignoring armor and that's that... ughers.
Now if you want to go through and completely recalculate every piece of armor relative to what portion of the body it's protecting, and assume that antagonists are always shooting at center mass (and thus the chest) and thus greatly increase the armor ratings for those locations... then apply a house rule to ignore armor in a specific region, I wouldn't see as much of a problem there. At least then you're making a genuine attempt to add realism to the game. But just ignoring armor and that's that... ughers.
*Reads everything above*
Alternative called shot rule?
How about this then? Just an idea.
When making a called shot the character tries to do ONE of three things.
1. Hit a spot where there is less armor to maximize damage
2. Hit a more vulnerable spot on a target (Damage code +1 but full armor)
3. Cause a “special effect”
1. Hit a spot with less armor
The character can reduce the targets armor value with -1 to -4 but receive a +1-+4 to their TN to hit depending on how much armor they want to remove.
2. Hit a more vulnerable spot.
The character aims for the targets left eye, groin, kidneys etc but does not try to hit a more vulnerable spot in the armor, just the body. +4 to TN to hit.
3. Special effect.
The character receives a +4 TN to hit a specific spot, item etc (GM decides)
The first one is the one with most change. Instead of a flat +4 to hit the character can choose what part of the armor he wants to shoot at.
Waddya think?
I posted something similar, based on the quick Cyberpunk table.
Options include:
+X Staging
+X to Power
Bypass armor
Special effect
*reduced strength/quickness for limb hits
*checks to remain standing
*to hold onto something
*unconsciousness
*and so on
-Siege
Edit:
Just to keep it interesting and to reflect wound shock, All head shots are base power + 1d6.
So a head shot from a Colt Manhunter would result in a 9 + 1d6 M before staging.
Sorry, it's early.
Options include:
+X Staging
+X to Power
Bypass armor
Special effect
*reduced strength/quickness for limb hits
*checks to remain standing
*to hold onto something
*unconsciousness
*and so on
-Siege
Edit:
Just to keep it interesting and to reflect wound shock, All head shots are base power + 1d6.
So a head shot from a Colt Manhunter would result in a 9 + 1d6 M before staging.
Sorry, it's early.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Now if you want to go through and completely recalculate every piece of armor relative to what portion of the body it's protecting, and assume that antagonists are always shooting at center mass (and thus the chest) and thus greatly increase the armor ratings for those locations... then apply a house rule to ignore armor in a specific region, I wouldn't see as much of a problem there. At least then you're making a genuine attempt to add realism to the game. |
Wow. I mean, wow.
Not many people on this board left who haven't seen the Light of Reason, then.
The best use of the called shot is the surprise sniper, after all 
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Now if you want to go through and completely recalculate every piece of armor relative to what portion of the body it's protecting, and assume that antagonists are always shooting at center mass (and thus the chest) and thus greatly increase the armor ratings for those locations... then apply a house rule to ignore armor in a specific region, I wouldn't see as much of a problem there. At least then you're making a genuine attempt to add realism to the game. But just ignoring armor and that's that... ughers. |
I tried this at one point... it doesn't work out too well. Mainly because you have to add in so many hit locations to make it realistic. Front torso, back torso, legs, arms, and head are the default from the cyberlimb rules, but those don't take into account mismatched arm/leg armor or the difference in the rating of a helmet's faceplate as opposed to the rest of it. What you generally end up with is that most people are relatively invulnerable to damage in one or two spots and very vulnerable in the rest (take the case of a vest with armor plates and a helmet, for instance).
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) | ||
|
Realism != thousands of hit locations.
I am/was using several house rules for the combat system, one of them was an easy hit location system (Torso, Head, Arms, Legs), which, compared to the official abstract system (which, when combined with all aspects of called shots (cybertorso, chemical warfare & melee), becomes ridiculous IMHO), worked very good to simulate certain effects of the real world (to a specific degree of course, smooth gameplay is very important).
SYL
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| 3. Special effect. The character receives a +4 TN to hit a specific spot, item etc (GM decides) |
The TN for this has to be more variable, I think. For instance, shooting someone in the eye is going to be tougher than shooting someone in the leg or the head. But aside from that, I do allow for those sorts of shots. Normally I err on the side of too many penalties, but since only gunbunnies generally feel confident enough to shoot off trigger fingers, its usually not a huge concern.
| QUOTE (apple) |
| Realism != thousands of hit locations. |
It breaks down at eight. I don't define hit locations as parts of the bodies, but areas where armor values may be radically different. In general, these are the front and back torso, left and right legs, left and right arms, skull, and face. You can merge the arms and legs together to get just six locations, which works better, but you still end up with very high values in some cases.
Though, looking at it now, it seems more reasonable than it does the last time I played with it (particularly reduced down to six locations). The average security helmet provides 6 ballistic and 12 impact armor, probably 4/8 skull 2/4 face. That certainly seems reasonable.
An armored long coat would provide 24/12 probably 8/4 torsos and 4/2 legs and arms. Again, reasonable.
Hmm...
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| An armored long coat would provide 24/12 probably 8/4 torsos and 4/2 legs and arms. Again, reasonable. |
Eh? I wouldn't call 24/12 reasonable! That's enough to easily stop an Assault Cannon round!
HitLoc wise, I use 3d6 for determining hit loc (when not a CS), with areas like pelvis, abdomen, chest separated. Generally it doesn't matter where in the torso a round hits, and legs and arms are not separated into smaller units. To figure out for yourself what kind of ratings different suits of armor should have, read up on real world armor.
For example, yes, an Armored Vest + Plates could easily be justified as having, say, 10 points of armor in the chest, abdoment and back (since RL vests with plates can stop anything up to and including armor piercing light/med rifle rounds). But stopping Barret or Assault Cannon rounds? No gawd damn way.
If you want reasonable ratings, look on Raygun's site for clues. Or I could put up my numbers again, they've worked wonderfully so far and (except for the weights) they are quite realistic, too.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Eh? I wouldn't call 24/12 reasonable! That's enough to easily stop an Assault Cannon round! |
Nonono, that's 24/12 points of armor total. Over the four locations it covers. This is going off the simple algorithm of:
| CODE |
| total armor value = value at all hit locations / number of hit locations |
While it's 24/12 in the sense that it's 4 * 6 / 4 * 6 total points, the actual values would be:
Front torso 8/3
Rear torso 8/3
Arms 4/2
Legs 4/2
Armor tends to be lighter on arms and legs to retain flexibility and most powerful in the torso. A long coat doesn't cover the head at all, so notice how the face and skull are unprotected. A vest with plates would have 4/3 * 6 or 24/18 points of armor to work with. That'd probably lead to something like:
Front torso 14/10
Rear torso 10/8
That would stop a burst of ex-ex ammo from a Thunderbolt (TN 2 to soak) if the shots hit the torso front or a normal heavy pistol round to the back (TN 2 to soak).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| AE, I'd call that an extreme example. If you've got 3 skill, odds are you aren't a gun-bunny, which means you probably aren't smartlinked. |
Actually a Smartlink-2 is one of the few reasons Called Shots are a viable option. Say you have some of unremarkable but admirable skill (4) using a base TN of 4 (since a 6 is apparently "extreme"). For the sake of this discussion, he's all out of Combat Pool, too, and is making one last, desperate shot with his heavy pistol to save his hide. Also note that Smartlink-2s not only reduce general TNs by -2 but also make Called Shots cost only +2 instead of +4.
With the first shot Mr. Example takes a regular shot at the goon who's just standing there in the open. His final TN is 2 (base 4 -2 Smartlink), and he manages 3 successes with his 4 dice. His shot is staged up one Damage Level, making it only a Serious shot with a bit of a possibility of making it Deadly if he got lucky and didn't roll a single 1.
In an alternate universe, Mr. Example W. Goatee decided to make a called shot in the same scenario. His final TN is 4 (base 4, +2 Called, -2 Smartlink), and he manages 2 successes his with his 4 dice. His shot is staged up two Damage Levels, making it a Deadly shot.
Just for the sake of conversation here, I don't think 6 or 8 as TN's are remotely extreme. In firefights I rarely see TN's go less than 6. Cover alone can make a 2 an 8 or higher if you both take cover.
Indeed.
~J
~J
That works out okay. Will stop any normal small-arm round, but a sniper rifle + APDS will still ruin your day. Then the next problem is that pistols shouldn't penetrate anywhere near as well as rifles, and something like the Barret 121 or HMGs should always penetrate just about any form of body armor even with normal rounds.
(Assault) Rifles penetrate a lot more in my games than they do in canon, pistols a lot less, and generic bad-guy vests have ratings 4/2 in the whole torso area (shouldn't really protect the pelvic area, but I haven't really decided anything on that yet), best flexible vests are at 6/3 and best plates are at 6/5, so the best possible total you can have for abdomen/chest without mil-spec+ plated armor is 12/8, which is just enough to stop AP 7.62x51 rounds.
And just 2 games ago, our most "tank-ish" char (Body 6/8 for damres) got nailed in the chest with a 3-round burst of heavy AR AP rounds while wearing Form Fitting + Plated Mil-Spec Torso (= 14/8 ), and ended up at D+1. (Critical location on the 3d6 +1DL, 12S with -5 Armor, 7 successes, for 3D+7 successes). So with a bit of common sense, rules like these definitely do not make characters invulnerable in some locations (like I think someone claimed earlier in the thread).
[Edit]I did not mean "extreme" as in "does not happen a lot", I meant that 6 is the extreme example of a starting TN where Calling a Shot may lead to more damage on average. It is THE one TN that you can really use to portray CSing as a sensible tactic in firefights. You could perhaps use 12 as well, but that would be quite silly.
And SL-2 certainly makes Calling Shots a far more viable tactic. No arguments there. But that still doesn't explain why we need CSs...
[/Edit]
[Edit #2]
(Assault) Rifles penetrate a lot more in my games than they do in canon, pistols a lot less, and generic bad-guy vests have ratings 4/2 in the whole torso area (shouldn't really protect the pelvic area, but I haven't really decided anything on that yet), best flexible vests are at 6/3 and best plates are at 6/5, so the best possible total you can have for abdomen/chest without mil-spec+ plated armor is 12/8, which is just enough to stop AP 7.62x51 rounds.
And just 2 games ago, our most "tank-ish" char (Body 6/8 for damres) got nailed in the chest with a 3-round burst of heavy AR AP rounds while wearing Form Fitting + Plated Mil-Spec Torso (= 14/8 ), and ended up at D+1. (Critical location on the 3d6 +1DL, 12S with -5 Armor, 7 successes, for 3D+7 successes). So with a bit of common sense, rules like these definitely do not make characters invulnerable in some locations (like I think someone claimed earlier in the thread).
[Edit]I did not mean "extreme" as in "does not happen a lot", I meant that 6 is the extreme example of a starting TN where Calling a Shot may lead to more damage on average. It is THE one TN that you can really use to portray CSing as a sensible tactic in firefights. You could perhaps use 12 as well, but that would be quite silly.
And SL-2 certainly makes Calling Shots a far more viable tactic. No arguments there. But that still doesn't explain why we need CSs...
[/Edit][Edit #2]
| QUOTE (Dr Funkenstein) |
| [...] with a bit of a possibility of making it Deadly if he got lucky and didn't roll a single 1. |
His chances of NOT rolling a single 1 are 52%. So in fact he would be unlucky if he did. Or something. The example still holds though, in that situation CSing would probably lead to more damage on average, depending of course on CP 'n all.[/Edit]
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Nov 18 2003, 12:54 PM) |
| His chances of NOT rolling a single 1 are 52%. |
48.23% by my calculations
Oops! You're right. So he would indeed be lucky not to roll a 1. How about that...
Regardless, if you have plenty of time to aim (such as sniping someone from a book depository, or waiting for some target to get into range of your pistol while you're hiding in the bushes) a Called Shot is well worth the effort, Smartlink-2 or not.
Called Shots aren't something I, personally, would want to do in the heat of a firefight unless there was something incredibly vital that had to be shot (and even in those cases, it's rarely a person and more like a light fixture or something). If you have time to stop and aim while resting on your laurels during a fight, you're either setting up an ambush or not in a very threatening fight anyway. In the former case, you should have time to aim quite nicely and reduce that +4/+2 penalty. In the latter, you might as well just shoot twice instead of once.
At least that's how I usually look at Called Shots when I get a chance to play.
Called Shots aren't something I, personally, would want to do in the heat of a firefight unless there was something incredibly vital that had to be shot (and even in those cases, it's rarely a person and more like a light fixture or something). If you have time to stop and aim while resting on your laurels during a fight, you're either setting up an ambush or not in a very threatening fight anyway. In the former case, you should have time to aim quite nicely and reduce that +4/+2 penalty. In the latter, you might as well just shoot twice instead of once.
At least that's how I usually look at Called Shots when I get a chance to play.
I agree completely. Called Shots very rarely happen when someone's shooting back in our games, even though 2 out of 3 chars are gunbunnies that average 21+ init and have SL2+Artwink+Rifles6 and the enemies are mostly gangers and low-average sec guards.
The called shot debate here is great!
With the advent of the Smartgun Link 2, my players have been making called "Head Shots" at +2 target numbers. With the -2 from the smartgun link bringing the base target number back down to 4 they have been dealing out death since the majority of opponenets aren't wearing helmets.
If I give the characters a bit of the same, they tend to insta-die.
Instead, I have added an additional +2 target number modifier for any "head shots" and justified it by using the Partial Cover Table from pg, 98, CC. (+6 modifier if you are only firing at 1% - 25% of your target).
With the advent of the Smartgun Link 2, my players have been making called "Head Shots" at +2 target numbers. With the -2 from the smartgun link bringing the base target number back down to 4 they have been dealing out death since the majority of opponenets aren't wearing helmets.
If I give the characters a bit of the same, they tend to insta-die.
Instead, I have added an additional +2 target number modifier for any "head shots" and justified it by using the Partial Cover Table from pg, 98, CC. (+6 modifier if you are only firing at 1% - 25% of your target).
...and yet if you simply followed the core rules, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
I've house-ruled called shots this way:
1. Can up the damage code one stage. 9M->9S.
2. Can create some sort of non-damaging effect; for example, you could attempt to shoot the gun out of the sec guard's hand. Very difficult effects (shoot it out of his hand with one shot, then cause the gun to skip in the air with another) have threshholds (ala some spells).
3. Can hit a component part.
4. Can reduce armor up to X, which requires the TN to be raised by X, where X= the level of the skill being used. This option is a complex action (PhysAds love it) and cannot be combined with a weapon in full-auto mode. You might be able to get 3 bullets in the same quarter-sized mass, but not 6 from an assault rifle.
Edit: The 4th option is for players who have read the FAQ and ask about it. Otherwise, I just stick to #1-3.
1. Can up the damage code one stage. 9M->9S.
2. Can create some sort of non-damaging effect; for example, you could attempt to shoot the gun out of the sec guard's hand. Very difficult effects (shoot it out of his hand with one shot, then cause the gun to skip in the air with another) have threshholds (ala some spells).
3. Can hit a component part.
4. Can reduce armor up to X, which requires the TN to be raised by X, where X= the level of the skill being used. This option is a complex action (PhysAds love it) and cannot be combined with a weapon in full-auto mode. You might be able to get 3 bullets in the same quarter-sized mass, but not 6 from an assault rifle.
Edit: The 4th option is for players who have read the FAQ and ask about it. Otherwise, I just stick to #1-3.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| ...and yet if you simply followed the core rules, it wouldn't be a problem at all. |
... and you can still apply those TN-Mods according to the cover modifiers, if you really want to ... *Have seen that more than once*
Buzzed's head explodes.
A passer-by looks at Buzzed's body and says "Hmmmm. Must have been a lucky head shot -- it bypassed his Armor completely."
But the real question: did it do wound effects to Buzzed's cranial cyber/bioware?
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| ...and yet if you simply followed the core rules, it wouldn't be a problem at all. |
I don't follow?
Do you mean if I circumvented the FAQ and didn't allow called shots to bypass armor there wouldn't be an issue?
If so, while I could ban that rule from the game, I must admit I don't mind having the ability to call shots to circumvent armor or even plug someone in the head. I'm just attempting to make it hard enough to do that it doesn't ruin the game while still making it an option in the right circumstances (our sniper's aimed shot for example).
The FAQ is NOT eratta, it is not an official change to the rules, it is a clarification to the rules by an official person in his opinion. It does not change any rules, just offers a POV explanation from a developer. Take it as you will.
| QUOTE (Game2BHappy) |
| If so, while I could ban that rule from the game, I must admit I don't mind having the ability to call shots to circumvent armor or even plug someone in the head. |
You're the GM, you already have that ability no matter what the rules.
Anyway, you might want to use the rule that bypassing armor incurs a TN penalty equal to the amount of armor you wish to bypass. I think it has shown up on this thread already. That way the option exists but won't be quite so deadly.
If anyone uses this rule, I'm curious: how do you use it with Smartlink-2? The SL2's ability to reduce called shot modifiers by 2 would seem to give users a "free" called shot that bypasses 2 points of armor every phase.
Seems like that's kind of the point of SM-2. It's supposed to be the hottest thing for guns since cordite, after all.
Or since the Smartlink-I
~J
~J
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| The FAQ is NOT eratta, it is not an official change to the rules, it is a clarification to the rules by an official person in his opinion. It does not change any rules, just offers a POV explanation from a developer. Take it as you will. |
That's an interesting argument. So we're going to say that the official FAQ is not official? I've been assuming it's the exact same thing as eratta. Could we get an official call on this?
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| That's an interesting argument. So we're going to say that the official FAQ is not official? I've been assuming it's the exact same thing as eratta. Could we get an official call on this? |
Ask yourself one simple question here: If FAQ and Errata were identical in meaning, why would the official homepage have two differnt sections and why would there be different names for identical meanings?
It's an ongoing discussion whether or not the FAQ is actually canon, since previous versions were obviously faulty and in this particular case it doesn't stand on solid ground either.
There is general agreement, that Rob (or any other line developer / author) is better informed about how certain rules were supposed to work, but that doesn't change the fact that Errata and FAQ are two different things. And of course Rob (or any other person) is not immune to making errors both in terms of not knowing a particular rule by heart and applying "real world logic" to something that initially was intended to be extremely abstract ...
It seems to me that the fundamental reason why errata is not FAQ is as such:
errata are clarifications to specific sentences or charts in a book. Its what makes the difference before the first publication and the second; the typos are taken out, the grammar is corrected etc. This shouldn't add any new rules (unless they were somehow forgotten in the original release, which would be pretty odd).
FAQ is Frequently Asked Questions. Anything people ask often. This has nothing to do with spelling, but usually with overarching questions. So questions about how called shots work would appear here.
I have read over both a while back, and I didn't see any reason why one should be considered canon and not the other (well, errata obviously should be). However, considering the fact that I have the memory of a pickle, there might be something else there I'm missing.
errata are clarifications to specific sentences or charts in a book. Its what makes the difference before the first publication and the second; the typos are taken out, the grammar is corrected etc. This shouldn't add any new rules (unless they were somehow forgotten in the original release, which would be pretty odd).
FAQ is Frequently Asked Questions. Anything people ask often. This has nothing to do with spelling, but usually with overarching questions. So questions about how called shots work would appear here.
I have read over both a while back, and I didn't see any reason why one should be considered canon and not the other (well, errata obviously should be). However, considering the fact that I have the memory of a pickle, there might be something else there I'm missing.
ignoring armor is a bit uber to me... i mean come on.. load every gun with flechette.. look you are getting both benifits now!
Flechette ammo sucks if it hits armor!
Ignore armor.. and it hits flesh.. and it stages up also.. what a bonus!
So now my 14S Ranger Arms now ignores your armor and does 14D!!! muwahahaha!
Flechette ammo sucks if it hits armor!
Ignore armor.. and it hits flesh.. and it stages up also.. what a bonus!
So now my 14S Ranger Arms now ignores your armor and does 14D!!! muwahahaha!
i only allow called shots to bypass armor if it's possible for the armor to be bypassed--for instance, a char in full military armor, with helmet, doesn't have to worry about his armor being bypassed.
I love that word. "Abstract." It's so useful. It allows people the freedom justify things in any number of ways. It's the short way of saying "I believe what I want to and I can change that whenever I feel like it." Which is great.
Shadowrun's game system definitely is apart from reality. But even in this abstract game system, some things tend to be far more abstract than others, which, obviously, can make things inconsistent and impractical. Personally, when it comes to body armor rules -hell, the whole of ranged combat- I like things to be a bit more practical than they are under canon rules. They do not satisfy my sense of reality. Others may have no problem at all. Thankfully, we can all play the game the way we want to and no one's idea of what is realistic (or realistic enough) and what isn't is any better than anyone else's. It's not one way or the other. There are many levels in between. It's all subjective.
The ability to bypass armor may seem "über" or "munchkin" or whatever word it is that you use to describe something you don't like. It's usually a big step toward enhancing lethality, and some people don't like that. They think the game is lethal enough as it is. I don't. I have seen players get away with some incredibly silly shit by the book. Because of that, I've chosen to change a few things. Allowing PCs/NPCs to bypass armor tends to make a game a bit deadlier, and lethality is a powerful tool for a GM if a player can become so emotionally attached to the character that they've put so much effort into creating. And that, to me, is the way it should be. You can accomplish the same thing in other ways, but in order to do it using canon rules, things can get rediculous very quickly. It depends on the players. Certainly, if you're going to change this one armor rule, you probably should bring a few others in line as well, but you really don't have to if you don't want to.
If you want to use armor bypassing rules, do it. There's nothing wrong with it, no matter what anyone else says. Just understand that the John-Woo-Flying-Lead-And-Kung-Fu thing isn't going to work out all that well. It can suck a lot of the gunplay out of your game. Fortunately, that tends to make players think about other ways of solving their problems, which can be fun. But if you think the game is fine the way it it is, then great. Play it the way it is. It's certainly geared more toward Hollywood gun battles, and that can be fun too. It's up to you.
Shadowrun's game system definitely is apart from reality. But even in this abstract game system, some things tend to be far more abstract than others, which, obviously, can make things inconsistent and impractical. Personally, when it comes to body armor rules -hell, the whole of ranged combat- I like things to be a bit more practical than they are under canon rules. They do not satisfy my sense of reality. Others may have no problem at all. Thankfully, we can all play the game the way we want to and no one's idea of what is realistic (or realistic enough) and what isn't is any better than anyone else's. It's not one way or the other. There are many levels in between. It's all subjective.
The ability to bypass armor may seem "über" or "munchkin" or whatever word it is that you use to describe something you don't like. It's usually a big step toward enhancing lethality, and some people don't like that. They think the game is lethal enough as it is. I don't. I have seen players get away with some incredibly silly shit by the book. Because of that, I've chosen to change a few things. Allowing PCs/NPCs to bypass armor tends to make a game a bit deadlier, and lethality is a powerful tool for a GM if a player can become so emotionally attached to the character that they've put so much effort into creating. And that, to me, is the way it should be. You can accomplish the same thing in other ways, but in order to do it using canon rules, things can get rediculous very quickly. It depends on the players. Certainly, if you're going to change this one armor rule, you probably should bring a few others in line as well, but you really don't have to if you don't want to.
If you want to use armor bypassing rules, do it. There's nothing wrong with it, no matter what anyone else says. Just understand that the John-Woo-Flying-Lead-And-Kung-Fu thing isn't going to work out all that well. It can suck a lot of the gunplay out of your game. Fortunately, that tends to make players think about other ways of solving their problems, which can be fun. But if you think the game is fine the way it it is, then great. Play it the way it is. It's certainly geared more toward Hollywood gun battles, and that can be fun too. It's up to you.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| for instance, a char in full military armor, with helmet, doesn't have to worry about his armor being bypassed. |
How does he move? There have to be joints, and joints are always weak spots, no matter how tough the armor (tanks, for example). Even guys in full military armor should worry. If not for the assault rifle pointed at them, then for the grenade launcher or RPG. Hell, especially those guys, as their mobility is relatively compromised by the weight of their armor.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| [QUOTE =(mfb)] for instance, a char in full military armor, with helmet, doesn't have to worry about his armor being bypassed. How does he move? There have to be joints, and joints are always weak spots, no matter how tough the armor (tanks, for example). Even guys in full military armor should worry. If not for the assault rifle pointed at them, then for the grenade launcher or RPG. Hell, especially those guys, as their mobility is relatively compromised by the weight of their armor. |
As pointed out, tere are always weak points. In this instance would it let you by pass armour?? thats up for debate. Would it drop the armour form harden to normal? In my book Hell yeah!
The classic example is the Armor spell. It shouldn't have weak points...
Well, I may be late to the podium, but here's some random remarks/comments:
1. I feel that the Called Shot is acceptable as-is. It's okay at shorter ranges for squeezing out some extra damage; at longer ranges, assuming you are smart enough to be using something with real range (i.e., the sniper rifle), it's fairly ridiculous to make things harder on yourself by making a Called Shot, when you could just take a regular shot with a gun decked out with mods (and you with cyber), and let raw successes make it do Deadly-plus-overflow damage.
2. The Ares Viper Slivergun is a pretty toy. Yes, it is a remarkably deadly pistol. Yes, a Called Shot will make it the next best thing since sliced bread. Yes, it is an assassin's weapon of choice.
It is NOT what you want a PC to build a long and successful shadowrunning career off of, however. Why?
Because while that gun is hella-cool at close range, I can be much more hella-cool at longer ranges with bigger guns. There's the always-fun sniper rifle, assault cannons, MGs, and missile launchers. The sheer range differences on some of these go without mentioning; you can't kill me with a AVS at the range I could reach out and explode your head with a sniper rifle. Oh, I'm sure you can concoct scenarios by which I am unable to make your head disappear with said gun; scenarios involving magic and other things, which I am almost certain to counter with my own tricks. If it boils down to whose gun is better, I'll take a sniper rifle and a tall building overlooking the taco stand you frequent any day of the week over an AVS.
Incidentally, don't forget that if you do shoot the AVS on burst-fire mode, you start incurring a nasty little recoil score. If uncompensated, recoil can do a nasty number on your TN, no matter the range you're shooting at. If I remember correctly, it's +3 on the first Phase, +6 on the next. Start doing the math; that Called Shot at Medium to Long range starts looking pretty high after a while.
Oh, and the AVS is practically worthless against vehicles, which means if a mark you're after is in a car, you better reach for the bigger guns anyway. That includes drones; if you go on a run against riggers, leave the AVS sitting at home, and get yourself an assault cannon, or a LMG/GL combo.
The AVS is hardly the ultimate weapon, and is good for pretty much one thing: assassinations at fairly close range. A forward-thinking shadowrunner that specializes in wetwork would be a fool not to take one, but would be equally foolish to depend on it for every scenario.
3. The abstract nature of Shadowrun's combat system is found in many other systems, namely D&D. The abstract school of thought dictates that the flow of the game's action is more important than sorting out layers and layers of modifiers, situations, and whatnot, and so some conventions are allowed for in the name of cinematics.
If you like a detailed system for combat, I highly recommend just playing GURPS for inspiration. They use a hit-location map that uses 3d6 to determine hit location, and assigns various penalties to shooting various locations. You'll have to adjust the way armor works, probably, but other than that, the system works pretty darn good, I think.
By the way, there is no more merit to abstraction than there is to detail. Both can be good to keep the action going, and both can be horribly abused by power gamers and munchkins. In the end, it only matters what makes things more fun for everybody, which does include the GM; a GM not having fun is a GM who isn't going to run games very long.
1. I feel that the Called Shot is acceptable as-is. It's okay at shorter ranges for squeezing out some extra damage; at longer ranges, assuming you are smart enough to be using something with real range (i.e., the sniper rifle), it's fairly ridiculous to make things harder on yourself by making a Called Shot, when you could just take a regular shot with a gun decked out with mods (and you with cyber), and let raw successes make it do Deadly-plus-overflow damage.
2. The Ares Viper Slivergun is a pretty toy. Yes, it is a remarkably deadly pistol. Yes, a Called Shot will make it the next best thing since sliced bread. Yes, it is an assassin's weapon of choice.
It is NOT what you want a PC to build a long and successful shadowrunning career off of, however. Why?
Because while that gun is hella-cool at close range, I can be much more hella-cool at longer ranges with bigger guns. There's the always-fun sniper rifle, assault cannons, MGs, and missile launchers. The sheer range differences on some of these go without mentioning; you can't kill me with a AVS at the range I could reach out and explode your head with a sniper rifle. Oh, I'm sure you can concoct scenarios by which I am unable to make your head disappear with said gun; scenarios involving magic and other things, which I am almost certain to counter with my own tricks. If it boils down to whose gun is better, I'll take a sniper rifle and a tall building overlooking the taco stand you frequent any day of the week over an AVS.
Incidentally, don't forget that if you do shoot the AVS on burst-fire mode, you start incurring a nasty little recoil score. If uncompensated, recoil can do a nasty number on your TN, no matter the range you're shooting at. If I remember correctly, it's +3 on the first Phase, +6 on the next. Start doing the math; that Called Shot at Medium to Long range starts looking pretty high after a while.
Oh, and the AVS is practically worthless against vehicles, which means if a mark you're after is in a car, you better reach for the bigger guns anyway. That includes drones; if you go on a run against riggers, leave the AVS sitting at home, and get yourself an assault cannon, or a LMG/GL combo.
The AVS is hardly the ultimate weapon, and is good for pretty much one thing: assassinations at fairly close range. A forward-thinking shadowrunner that specializes in wetwork would be a fool not to take one, but would be equally foolish to depend on it for every scenario.
3. The abstract nature of Shadowrun's combat system is found in many other systems, namely D&D. The abstract school of thought dictates that the flow of the game's action is more important than sorting out layers and layers of modifiers, situations, and whatnot, and so some conventions are allowed for in the name of cinematics.
If you like a detailed system for combat, I highly recommend just playing GURPS for inspiration. They use a hit-location map that uses 3d6 to determine hit location, and assigns various penalties to shooting various locations. You'll have to adjust the way armor works, probably, but other than that, the system works pretty darn good, I think.
By the way, there is no more merit to abstraction than there is to detail. Both can be good to keep the action going, and both can be horribly abused by power gamers and munchkins. In the end, it only matters what makes things more fun for everybody, which does include the GM; a GM not having fun is a GM who isn't going to run games very long.
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