 Spirit Movement power vs Vehicles, how does this work? |
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 Aug 15 2007, 09:06 PM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
I asked a similar question before in the past (regarding why magic wasn't seen more in industrial areas, especially energy generation) and the general consensus was three-fold:
1. Philosophically: It's just cheesy. Yes, magic exists in the Sixth World but it's supposed to be a mysterious and rare thing. Having it constantly and regularly show up at every turn and on every tier of society cheapens it. 2. Practicality: Prolonged use of industrialized magic would likely creates massive background counts, provoke "spirit rights activist" protests, and so on and so forth. 3. (Meta)Human Spirit: Advances in technology are going to keep coming no matter what, especially by those who lack the "gift." Just because magic can and likely would make most things trivial, that doesn't mean people wouldn't keep inventing or improving things, if for no other reason than to simply make a name for themselves. Likewise, if you do assume magic starts taking over technology, you run the risk of stagnation... and that would be a really, really bad thing. At least in my opinion. The first reason was my personal favorite and it's one you find in the game by necessity anyway (I mean, seriously, there's no reason a bunch of thugs and street trash would be able to just waltz into a highly-secured facility, let alone get away with doing so with minimal repercussions in reality), so it's not as big as a stretch as people like to make it out as. |
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Aug 15 2007, 09:33 PM
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#52
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..Doc, thanks for the reaffirmation of faith in the mundane spirit. With the way things were beginning to sound that everything can be done better through magic (and perhaps it can) the "Cheese Factor" brings things back down to earth.
So, OK a spirit can take that crappy old turboprop and sling effectively it at mega mach speeds in reference to the ground below, but I would feel more comfortable aboard that sleek Slipstream Ignition™ SO parked at the gate next door for I know what makes it work. |
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Aug 15 2007, 09:37 PM
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#53
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You also doing have to worry about drain-related flight delays when you use mundane technology. Yeah, a spirit-assisted ride seems like a brilliant idea, until the summoner gets knocked out from the drain and you have to wait several hours while the airline flies in a new one. And lets not even think about the resulting uncontrolled spirit going on an engulfing spree.
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Aug 15 2007, 10:04 PM
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#54
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so that explains why Violet's luggage ended up in Nairobi instead of Seattle on her last flight. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:09 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Actually, the first market (other than space--see that thread) that would be served by Movement would probably be supercargo ships, followed quickly by Fedex for same-day service. There would be enough demand that there might not be enough supply to handle normal passenger traffic (excepting the really rich).
That said, however, the potential value of things like Movement threatens to blow the demand for mages out of the water; rather than being used as "ward-makers" or "corp researches" or worse yet combat mage security guards, almost all mages should in theory be spending all of their time summoning (and often binding) spirits at corp expense (and in secure medical facilities, too). That makes it harder to justify a mage running the shadows than it already is; even with a checkered past, there would be a corp somewhere that would gladly pay for an extra summoner. In short, summoning *is* overpowered--maybe not for the PCs, but within the world created under RAW, and we keep bumping into that issue. I don't know how you really resolve it without nerfing spirits to the point where they become cantrips as far as PCs on a run go. And then... there are the high-powered allies. I love the concept--but I don't think it's what non-mages would appreciate, especially since anything that runners can do, corps have the resources to do en masse. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:24 AM
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#56
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In designing the spirits for Street Magic, that is certainly a problem I kept running into. Spirits are already crazy good, so the new spirits had to be crazy good for them to have any appeal. And so on. 4th edition reigned in Movement a lot by the simple expedient of making spirits of Force 5-9 difficult to conjure. Or at least, difficult to bind. Summoning is pretty crazy easy if you happen to be in a medical facility surrounded by sugically inspired fans. When the basic unit of spiritual mojo available to a wage mage went from Force 6 to Force 4, that was a solid step to getting Movement out of ubiquitty. But the fact is that it's still way too easy to summon unbound spirits of decent force and set them to rampaging. -Frank |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:33 AM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It seems to me that the powers are the problem, not the spirits. For some reason, a spirit's powers are allowed to be infinitely more powerful than a spell in most cases, with no really good reason as to why that is.
Would have made more sense for spirits to use the rules of sorcery for their powers. Sort of like... magical agents. You summon a spirit, it comes with a preset list of spells and spellcasting abilities, and voila, it's a hell of a lot more balanced. But, oh well, too late for that sort of thing now. |
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 Aug 16 2007, 03:35 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
How about a one-man corp that kidnaps mages, mind controls them (with ally sustaining), uses them to constantly bind high-powered spirits, and sells (mostly remote) spirit services on the market for a net profit? :vegm:
If that's not munchy enough, turn them into vampires while you're at it. Just to be on the safe side, personafix them, too. |
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Aug 16 2007, 04:18 AM
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#59
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Really? I think the core difficulty is that at the core a spirit's attributes and skills are all about equal to Force. And when you summon a spirit, you roll your Magic + Summoning, and it rolls its Force. And if you get a net hit, you get a service. So if spirits actually replicated spells, the problem would be more obvious and sincere. Conjuring would be just better than Sorcery. You would in all cases be better off summoning up a spirit and then having it cast spells on your behalf. And that's really annoying. The only thing that keeps Spirits in line is that most of their powers are crap. Confusion, Binding, Elemental Attack - these are all abilities that are extremely poor at expressing my all-encompassing rage directed to the world at large. Even with 2 IPs, spirits are just extremely... not good... at actually taking down enemies. ---- There are few outliers. Spirit powers which are comparable in effect to a spell or skill. In fact, the ones which are literally a Spell or Skill get people to cover themselves with maple butter because they are so much more awesome than all the other spirit powers! When was the last time anyone talked to you about the awesome potential of Guard or Venom? Spirits can just have Fear and people rarely notice one way or the other. So here's the ht parade of awesome. The powers which pay da billz for the entire Conjuring discipline:
But really, if your spirit doesn't have a power on that list, I don't even care what it does. -Frank |
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Aug 16 2007, 05:42 AM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The divination team asked whether it was alive or dead and the world imploded. |
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Aug 16 2007, 06:30 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Elemental Attack does have one advantage over spells... no signature.
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Aug 16 2007, 06:43 AM
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#62
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yeah, that's essentially what I was getting at. They also suffer virtually no consequences for using their powers. No sustaining penalties, no Drain, few tests to see if they actually work or have variable effects... pretty much nothing more than "X targets per force" type limits. That, combined with the rather overpowered nature of quite a few of the powers, is what really brings them down. The agent comparison was just a "I'm tired and too lazy to explain myself in detail" cop-out. The point is that it's their powers, not so much their actual stats and other abilities, that's the problem with them. At least as far as I've observed so far. Especially when you start adding in things like Channeling or Empower. Oy vey.
I see what you're getting at there. I was more concerned about the consequences of spellcasting than truly limiting them to Sorcery.
Well, yes, not all powers are great, and that's where the problem lies. You have some that are too good, others that are next to worthless. I never really see spirits as killing machines anyway. They're more useful as tools to augment the conjurer and his allies, and that's oddly where they're considered "overpowered." If there were Sorcery-like risks involved to the spirit and/or conjurer each time a spirit used one of its powers, I'd even get behind improving their offensive capabilities. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:05 PM
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#63
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I consider this one one of those "campaign wrecker" powers up there with the Watcher search ability. Also, no spirit should be able to sustain Health Spells. Had a player totally abuse the Increase Attribute - Charisma spell this way. I was trying to figure out some kind of entropic backlash to hit her with. |
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Aug 16 2007, 03:07 PM
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#64
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
... in the words of Monty Burns, eeeeeeeexcellent, So then we have a new slate. OK magic no longer trumps tech and all the laws of physics apply. |
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Aug 16 2007, 06:14 PM
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#65
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If you want entorpic backlash for sustained Increase Charisma spells, the spirit may have accidentally rediscovered Alachia's Allure. |
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Aug 16 2007, 08:08 PM
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#66
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...and how would that be a backlash? Never really played Earthdawn but from what I was able to find, it would have only made the matter worse.
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Aug 16 2007, 08:34 PM
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#67
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Did you ever watch the episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Xander tries to case a love spell to win Cordelia back but accidentally makes every woman in Sunnydale except Cordelia fall madly in love with him? So you've got hundreds of completely obsessed women (and possibly some gay men) trying to kill each other over his affection and, when he doesn't respond favorably to their advances, trying to kill him in a massive murder-suicide plot. Being irresistibly attractive is not exactly a good thing. |
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Aug 16 2007, 08:53 PM
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#68
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...must have missed that one.
I do remember that episode of Xena where Aphrodite messed with her, Gabrielle and Joxter. Gabrielle became extremely vain and was totally useless and intolerable, while Xena's mission in life was to go fishing, and Jox became obsessed with making zug zug. Yeah, makes sense, especially if extreme vanity went along with it. |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:01 PM
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#69
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Alachia's Allure was a very powerful Named spell that essentially required a very high Target number Will test to avoid being enthralled. Not in the mindless drooling way but in they "wow most beautiful woman ever, I want to serve her" kind of way.
Sound familiar from the Tir SB? ;) |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:09 PM
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#70
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...which one TT or TnN?
That actually does sound rather nasty, especially where this character was concerned. I could actually see her using that to her advantage. [apologies for the derail again...] |
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Aug 16 2007, 09:26 PM
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#71
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is very little practical to do with mentally unbalanced stalkers who want to kill you so that you can be together forever, however. Irresistibility and mental disease inevitably produce that result. Alachia was an absurdly powerful spellcaster who could take care of herself and who had several thousands years of experience at manipulating people prior to her casting of the spell. Any shadowrunner is going to be an amateur by comparison. But, even without the Alachia's Allure, superhuman charisma inspiring crazed stalkers is not at all unreasonable. |
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