 Redlining cyberlimbs, A new hacker attack? |
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 Aug 19 2007, 11:31 AM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253  |
The basic answer here is cost. It's much more effective (right now) to pay security guards and drones who disable your cyberware by firing bullets into it that to try to develop and field a bunch of magic nannies. And even if you did develop such a system, it will only be 3 months of so before counter-nannies are developed. Of course, this really means that anyone who can't afford counter-nannies is just toast. Since we don't want our PCs to be just toast, they have to get the counter-nannies. Now we are back to square one. |
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Aug 19 2007, 12:41 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Ok, people, stop being a dick to Draconis. The nanites he describes are called Activators, and they're in augmentation on page 116.
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Aug 19 2007, 04:38 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Damn, Platonic beat me to it. It's kind of funny how quickly the thread devolved into making fun of something perfectly legal by the RAW. Anyway, the nano arms race is indeed expensive, but in full force whether we like it or not. That's why I intend to get a rating 3 Nanohive and start running around with O Cells, Universal Nantidotes and Universal Nanohunters on my next char ASAP. It's expensive as hell, and somewhat paranoid, but that's the biz.
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Aug 19 2007, 05:14 PM
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#29
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, he wasn't describing Activators anymore than I was describing Nanite Hunters. Hence me adding in all the silliness to them in my response. (Because, again, it's apparenrtly easy to build and customize your own SOTA technology.)
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Aug 19 2007, 06:43 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Actually Funk, he did describe activators pretty exclusively. Considering that that rating 1 activators will stick around for 1 week turning on everything, you really can't turn it off, or if you did, it'd be off for fractions of a second. The only fixes to get rid of them would be wait 1-6 weeks (depending on rating for them to degrade on their own), or buy some nanite hunters.
While your description of nanite hunters was quite over the top with giving nosebleeds to something inanimate, as well as stupidly dumb statboosts. |
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Aug 19 2007, 06:47 PM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
DNI isn't an object, its a method of communication. Like fibre cables. DNI means that you can communicate with the cyber directly from your brain, because its wired into your brain. Its not some seperate "thing" that you can route stuff to, through, or around. RFID's don't have on/off switches. Funk, as for as your "replace them with stealth tags" thats fine. Except stealth tags are NOT sensor tags, and as such, they're worthless. Since they can't have a sensor, they can't give diagnostics, they'll sit there being quiet, and tell the doctor the same thing whether the plates fine, or has a bullet hole in it. |
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Aug 19 2007, 06:47 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Rating 1 Activators cost 500nuyen. Wheres the obscene cost? |
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Aug 19 2007, 06:51 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No. Activators don't lock a device on, nor do they alter devices or implants to "ignore further input." THAT is over the top. Once you're aware of Activators in your system, you can go threw numerous steps to counter them -- continually flipped wireless back off (only takes a thought), manually powering down the commlink completely, etc. They're an annoyance -- just like they describe in the text -- not a death sentence. And they certainly don't render you incapable of using your devices. |
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Aug 19 2007, 06:53 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Will you please stop making stuff up? It's getting ridiculous. Stealth tags are normal RFID tags with security features. |
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Aug 19 2007, 07:11 PM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
You're right, you can manually power down whatever device you'd like to avoid it screaming your location. Just turn off those cyberlegs and good luck with your run.
As far as stealth tags. The options for tags SR4, 319, are, Standard RFID tags, Security Tags, and Stealth tags. Security tags are merely hardened RFID tags. Stealth tags are merely standard that don't respond without the proper passcode. Sensor tags are completely seperate, and listed over on pg 325. With the sensor gear. You can't have a stealth sensor tag. Just like you can't have a stealth security tag. They are each their own unique object, and sensor tags can't operate like a stealth tag, per RAW. |
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Aug 19 2007, 07:33 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Or keep switching them right back off. Doing so isn't even listed as an action and you can probably even tell your commlink or whatever else to keep switching its wireless connectivity off for you automagically. The insidious aspect of Activators is that you don't necessarily know its turning them on unless it becomes obvious. And, again, it certainly doesn't stop you from countering its affects once you realize you have a problem. Once again: Minor annoyance. Not "completely renders all your devices utterly useless 100% of the time forever and ever until they wear off." What's more, Activators say nothing about actually turning wireless connectivity on. It just subscribes you to nodes or opens them up to unrestricted access. If wireless is turned off, both of those functions are useless. |
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Aug 19 2007, 07:55 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Actually, they work like a toxin. So, you're right, they go in, and open everything once. Once you notice, you can just as easily spend an action per device to shut them back down.
Opening up to unrestricted access I would argue includes toggling wireless on if wireless is currently off. |
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Aug 19 2007, 10:43 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
see, that's where you're wrong. that's the cost to install given sensors into an RFID. it is not an actual RFID. you can't declare that you have 1,000,000,000 sensor RFIDs (without any sensors, and therefore free according to you) at chargen for example, unless you buy 1,000,000,000 RFID tags first. |
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Aug 20 2007, 04:09 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 254 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,768 |
My take on it is that "redlining" a limb is not a purely mental action. You have to both disengage the safety locks and actually exert the augmented level of strenght. The damage happens because the limbs threaten to tear off from their sockets, as the pull they exert on your weak flesh becomes too great to bear. So yeah, while a hacker might theoretically disengage the safeties for someone's limbs, the target usually won't take damage because of this. |
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Aug 20 2007, 05:10 AM
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#40
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Changed my mind. If you implant RFID tags in bone lacing, of the non-sensor variety, you can easily tell if the bones are broken or dislocated by running a scanner over them. You don't need sensors to tell you that.
You can also add manual controls to deactivate certain features of a cyberlimb, not just the whole thing. For example, if you have flex hands, you don't have to go around with them flopping about the whole time. If you add a manual control for the wireless, you can just shut it down without shutting down the whole thing. Also, if you define your control as a physical switch, it becomes impossible for activators to turn it back on: an incomplete circuit is an incomplete circuit, after all. |
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Aug 20 2007, 05:26 AM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
And how do you buy normal handheld sensors then? The cost is in the sensors inside it, obviously they felt justified in making the box that holds/controls them have a negligible cost. Thusly, yes, an rfid sensor cost is included within the sensor embedded in it. Bira: What happens when they redline the cyberlimbs body attribute? What actual "use" of the limb would cause the damage to the user? Cain: How so? By location of the RFID tags? You'd need a whole lot of them to accomplish that then. Also, it wouldn't tell you about anything like a hairline fracture, since that doesn't actually displace bones. How do you think the activators turn it on in the first place? If they're smart enough to replicate a command for it to turn on the wireless function, I'm sure they're able to connect the wire, which would make your physical switch worthless, and you'd have to utilize the software to shut the wireless off. As far as the flex hands are concerned, they don't flop around, they only deform under gradual pressure, and return to their normal shape once that pressure is removed. |
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Aug 20 2007, 05:54 AM
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#42
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Not really, not if you know some basic anatomy and assume that the tags were implanted in a set line to follow the curvature of the bone. Your scanner then tells you if they're misaligned, which allows you to go in closer with a pinpoint X-ray. Even hairline fractures might rotate or misalign bones, although you're right that they'd be much more difficult to detect.
Sorry, but unless nanites are programmed to connect a wire, they're not going to do it. Remember, nanites are specific. They're not "smart", they're single-minded. The job of activators is to turn stuff on, not to create new circuitry-- that's the job of soft nanites when they implant cyberware. Now, if someone created a bundle of nanties whose job it was to bridge circuit gaps, that'd be another thing. But since manual switches are very rare, nanties designed to defeat them would be at least as rare, if not nonexistant. |
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Aug 20 2007, 06:00 AM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Once again, making stuff up. Turning wireless connectivity on is not one of their listed capabilities. They attempt to add devices to a subscription list if they can and they attempts to open the device to universal input if they can. With wireless connectivity off, they can't do any of those things. Which is why smart runners keep them turned off when they're not necessary. And they certainly don't turn wireless connectivity on, disable all further input from the owner, and otherwise turn the nanites into ultrapowerful godlike entities as per Draconis' attempt to create something new. Despite two of you claiming that's exactly what they do and Draconis was just describing them exactly as they function. Which they don't. By any stretch. Feel free to read the description for Activators as many times as you need to, then quote the exact text therein that states that it turns wireless connectivity on if it's disabled. You can't cradle "RAW" close to your heart and then abandon it as you see fit. Well, you can, but not without coming across as a hypocrite. |
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Aug 20 2007, 06:08 AM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
First, I already conceeded that you were correct in asserting that Draconis' was describing more than activators could do.
Second, the activator text doesn't say "if they can". It just says they do. They need a wireless capable device (unless wireless is removed, then it is capable of utilizing it). Check, the cyberware can utilize wireless. Now, they either subscribe it to a node, or open it to universal access. Whichever one you wanted them to do. Aug, 116, "Activators infect wireless-capable devices and perform one of two simple, yet annoying tasks: They either subscribe the infected device to nodes without the user’s permission, or open the device to universal unrestricted access." So, does the cyberware have wireless capability? If yes, and its infected, then the activators either subscribe it or make it universally accessable. This would include turning the wireless on if it was off, but would not include adding wireless functionality if it was removed. |
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Aug 20 2007, 06:17 AM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
2) Linking and subscribing is listed on page 212. Nowhere in the text for that function does it say "if wireless connectivity is disabled, it is automatically enabled." Nowhere. Same goes for opening permissions to universal access.
Your "does the cyberware have wireless capability, if so it subscribes it to a list and makes it universally acceptable" does not equate to "does the cyberware have wireless capability, if yes then it TURNS IT ON and subscribes and makes it universally accessible." The capitalized step is completely missing and one that Activators make -no- mention of doing despite your desperate attempts to claim that it does. |
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Aug 20 2007, 06:21 AM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
It doesn't list for a requirement that the device have an ACTIVE wireless ability. Just that it has the ability for wireless at all. So either a) it is able to subscribe or open the connection without the connection being active, or b) it activates the connection, and can subscribe or open the device.
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Aug 20 2007, 06:29 AM
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#47
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
or c) only works on devices that have an active wireless ability. Just because you don't like the option, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Poll should have taught you that. |
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Aug 20 2007, 06:45 AM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The text for activators doesn't say that they can't do it if the wireless is off. It just says the device needs wireless capability, (check), and that they infect it, (check). If those two conditions are met, then they can cause their intended effect.
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Aug 20 2007, 06:53 AM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Still waiting for an actual quote that states Activators turn wireless connectivity on if it's turned off, as opposed to you assuming they do.
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Aug 20 2007, 06:55 AM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The fact that their only requirement for working is that the device have the capability for a wireless connection, not that said connection be currently active.
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