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Tarantula
If a game is utilizing the optional rule to redline a cyberlimb for bonus stats (Aug, 44) then if a hacker successfully infiltrates a limb, could he just redline it to cause the character using it to have to resist a painful stun damage every time? (For example, redlining someones standard cyberarm with strength 3 to 6 making him resist 6S every combat turn)?

As a side note, since its only every combat turn, that means a character benefits more from redlining if they have 2-4 IPs in that turn, since they can act more and utilize their redlined stats more.
Jhaiisiin
I suppose you could rule he activates the pain sensor system and overrides any cutoff the owner might try to initiate... There wouldn't be actual redlining though, unless the limb was doing something that could reach redline in the first place. That said, perception equals reality, and if the limb *thinks* it's doing something stressful, it might just send the feedback to the owner. So in a round about way, I'd say yes, they could cause the owner damage that way.
hyzmarca
Redlining a cyberlimb causes damage to the user over time no matter how what is done with it. All that is needed is to disable the limb's limitations which, apparently, exist to protect the flesh rather than being actual limits of the metal. For a character at rest, this could be represented by minor burns due to limb overheating, for example, or tearing around the limbs mounts when they try to move the arm.
PlatonicPimp
Dear lord, I think you are right. Shit, I need to enrypt my cyberlimb NOW!
pestulens
Can you say Ghost in the Shell
Tarantula
And,if the hacker is really infiltrated, and the user has multiple cyberlimbs, he could do each one, for (with 6 limbs, (2 arm, 2 leg, 1 torso, 1 head... redlining the strength on the head, and, uhh, body? I guess, on the torso) for a total of 6S 6 times every combat turn. That'd suck.
hyzmarca
Which is why it is stupid to connect your cyberlimb to your PAN in the first place.
Tarantula
Which is why when their limb starts malfunctioning, they have to go into surgery instead to find out whats wrong with it, and then to fix it instead. Rules on Aug, 127-128 for that. Really sucks it does.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Which is why when their limb starts malfunctioning, they have to go into surgery instead to find out whats wrong with it, and then to fix it instead. Rules on Aug, 127-128 for that. Really sucks it does.

Or they could just plug a wired display directly into the limb. You can even build the limb with a diagnostics display and a few buttons to cycle through the menus. They could even add a speaker so that the limb can tell you exactly what is wrong in the voice of Majel Barrett-Roddenberry.
Tarantula
Also, Aug, 31 has a bit to say on the subject as well...
"Nonetheless, for the paranoid, it is relatively easy to have a street doc disable or remove wireless links. Note, however, that this makes care and maintenance more difficult. Besides requiring invasive surgical procedures for inspection and maintenance, the gamemaster may apply a –1 to –3 dice pool modifier to any relevant tests the cyberdoc performs. Note that some implants may not need a complete wireless link—built-in RFID sensor tags can monitor the implant and report any problems. The gamemaster determines what implants/devices incorporate wireless links."
Cain
You know, with the rules for manual cyber controls, there's no reason why you can't turn off the wireless while on runs, then turn it back on when it's safe.

I also think that even tagging some cyber is absolutely pointless. Bone lacing comes immediately to mind.
Cthulhudreams
Or more seriously have your gear wired to a DNI - with a manual switch to disconnect or connect them.

Then you have several modes

A) All gear connected to the DNI, DNI to a commlink - Highly risky, controlled environments only.
B) All gear disconnected from the DNI, DNI linked to the commlink - Common usage.
C) All gear connected to the DNI, DNI not linked to the commlink - on a run you do this with a subvocal mike and some googles.

Total security with minor functional impact.
Ol' Scratch
That's to completely disable/remove wireless connectivity, meaning you're removing any chance of controlling it through a wireless connection ever. However, all wireless devices have the option of simply turning them off (at the beginning of the gear chapter in SR4) whenever you want.

Hence the use of the word "paranoid."

The only thing you really need to watch out for are hidden RFID tags, which is what the tag remover is for. I personally just buy a bunch of Stealth Tags, say that they're replacing any that were found, and calling it a day.
Tarantula
Yeah, because burning out the RFID tags in your dermal plating that tell the doc which plates are damaged and which aren't is a good idea when you come in and he needs to check every plate by hand.
Ol' Scratch
Hence replacing them with Stealth Tags. You know, encrypted ones that can only be accessed if you know the password. Yeah, those Stealth Tags.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 19 2007, 12:12 AM)
Yeah, because burning out the RFID tags in your dermal plating that tell the doc which plates are damaged and which aren't is a good idea when you come in and he needs to check every plate by hand.

But there is nothing stopping you have an on-off switch for the data readout and connecting it to your DNI.

So bascially you are going to dump the readout via your DNI onto your commlink and then transmit it all to the doc.

And if he wants live infomation, you just create a feed of that info and let the doc subscribe to it. Tada. And you don't even have to give him access to your PAN.
Crusher Bob
Or just have a specialty port on your skin that you can plug a wireless uplink into. Don't forget to have a faraday cage around the operating theatre as well. That way you can't be hacked while your cyberware is in a vulnerable state.
hobgoblin
have the doc install a datajack while your under the knife. then have him route the diagnostics to it.
Ol' Scratch
Or just be smart rather than paranoid and keep the wireless connectivity turned off whenever you need to. Just like the beginning of the gear chapter mentions. (God forbid.)
hobgoblin
a paranoid shadowrunner is a living shadowrunner, or something like that nyahnyah.gif
Ol' Scratch
Nah, the smart ones are the ones who live long. The paranoid ones usually get themselves killed.
Draconis
Hmmm now if I where a hacker/corp security I'd make some nanites that infect cyberware and equipment. You'd pass through an infected area then the little guys would turn on everything that can possibly transmit a wireless signal, then have it lock into on mode and ignore further external input. Your own cyber is now screaming your location and you can't turn the signal off. Can you crack open your cyber in the middle of a run?
Ol' Scratch
Then I'd invent my own super ultra-tech nanites on the fly that auto-inject themselves into my system and give your nanites a bloody nose while turning everything back off AND increasing all my attributes by 500 points, because I'm just that awesome and supersmart, too.

Making up stuff is fun.
hobgoblin
hell, are there not already a kind of nanite in augmentation thats designed to take out any other kind of nanite not flagged as friendly?
Ol' Scratch
Yes, but mine are more superawesome, and it's apparently so easy to make your own so why not? Ungh!
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Draconis)
Hmmm now if I where a hacker/corp security I'd make some nanites that infect cyberware and equipment. You'd pass through an infected area then the little guys would turn on everything that can possibly transmit a wireless signal, then have it lock into on mode and ignore further external input. Your own cyber is now screaming your location and you can't turn the signal off. Can you crack open your cyber in the middle of a run?

The basic answer here is cost. It's much more effective (right now) to pay security guards and drones who disable your cyberware by firing bullets into it that to try to develop and field a bunch of magic nannies. And even if you did develop such a system, it will only be 3 months of so before counter-nannies are developed. Of course, this really means that anyone who can't afford counter-nannies is just toast. Since we don't want our PCs to be just toast, they have to get the counter-nannies. Now we are back to square one.
PlatonicPimp
Ok, people, stop being a dick to Draconis. The nanites he describes are called Activators, and they're in augmentation on page 116.
Whipstitch
Damn, Platonic beat me to it. It's kind of funny how quickly the thread devolved into making fun of something perfectly legal by the RAW. Anyway, the nano arms race is indeed expensive, but in full force whether we like it or not. That's why I intend to get a rating 3 Nanohive and start running around with O Cells, Universal Nantidotes and Universal Nanohunters on my next char ASAP. It's expensive as hell, and somewhat paranoid, but that's the biz.
Ol' Scratch
No, he wasn't describing Activators anymore than I was describing Nanite Hunters. Hence me adding in all the silliness to them in my response. (Because, again, it's apparenrtly easy to build and customize your own SOTA technology.)
Tarantula
Actually Funk, he did describe activators pretty exclusively. Considering that that rating 1 activators will stick around for 1 week turning on everything, you really can't turn it off, or if you did, it'd be off for fractions of a second. The only fixes to get rid of them would be wait 1-6 weeks (depending on rating for them to degrade on their own), or buy some nanite hunters.

While your description of nanite hunters was quite over the top with giving nosebleeds to something inanimate, as well as stupidly dumb statboosts.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 19 2007, 12:12 AM)
Yeah, because burning out the RFID tags in your dermal plating that tell the doc which plates are damaged and which aren't is a good idea when you come in and he needs to check every plate by hand.

But there is nothing stopping you have an on-off switch for the data readout and connecting it to your DNI.

So bascially you are going to dump the readout via your DNI onto your commlink and then transmit it all to the doc.

And if he wants live infomation, you just create a feed of that info and let the doc subscribe to it. Tada. And you don't even have to give him access to your PAN.

DNI isn't an object, its a method of communication. Like fibre cables. DNI means that you can communicate with the cyber directly from your brain, because its wired into your brain. Its not some seperate "thing" that you can route stuff to, through, or around. RFID's don't have on/off switches.

Funk, as for as your "replace them with stealth tags" thats fine. Except stealth tags are NOT sensor tags, and as such, they're worthless. Since they can't have a sensor, they can't give diagnostics, they'll sit there being quiet, and tell the doctor the same thing whether the plates fine, or has a bullet hole in it.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
QUOTE (Draconis @ Aug 19 2007, 05:20 PM)
Hmmm now if I where a hacker/corp security I'd make some nanites that infect cyberware and equipment. You'd pass through an infected area then the little guys would turn on everything that can possibly transmit a wireless signal, then have it lock into on mode and ignore further external input. Your own cyber is now screaming your location and you can't turn the signal off. Can you crack open your cyber in the middle of a run?

The basic answer here is cost. It's much more effective (right now) to pay security guards and drones who disable your cyberware by firing bullets into it that to try to develop and field a bunch of magic nannies. And even if you did develop such a system, it will only be 3 months of so before counter-nannies are developed. Of course, this really means that anyone who can't afford counter-nannies is just toast. Since we don't want our PCs to be just toast, they have to get the counter-nannies. Now we are back to square one.

Rating 1 Activators cost 500nuyen. Wheres the obscene cost?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Actually Funk, he did describe activators pretty exclusively. Considering that that rating 1 activators will stick around for 1 week turning on everything, you really can't turn it off, or if you did, it'd be off for fractions of a second. The only fixes to get rid of them would be wait 1-6 weeks (depending on rating for them to degrade on their own), or buy some nanite hunters.

While your description of nanite hunters was quite over the top with giving nosebleeds to something inanimate, as well as stupidly dumb statboosts.

No. Activators don't lock a device on, nor do they alter devices or implants to "ignore further input." THAT is over the top. Once you're aware of Activators in your system, you can go threw numerous steps to counter them -- continually flipped wireless back off (only takes a thought), manually powering down the commlink completely, etc.

They're an annoyance -- just like they describe in the text -- not a death sentence. And they certainly don't render you incapable of using your devices.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Funk, as for as your "replace them with stealth tags" thats fine. Except stealth tags are NOT sensor tags, and as such, they're worthless. Since they can't have a sensor, they can't give diagnostics, they'll sit there being quiet, and tell the doctor the same thing whether the plates fine, or has a bullet hole in it.

Will you please stop making stuff up? It's getting ridiculous. Stealth tags are normal RFID tags with security features.
Tarantula
You're right, you can manually power down whatever device you'd like to avoid it screaming your location. Just turn off those cyberlegs and good luck with your run.

As far as stealth tags. The options for tags SR4, 319, are, Standard RFID tags, Security Tags, and Stealth tags. Security tags are merely hardened RFID tags. Stealth tags are merely standard that don't respond without the proper passcode.

Sensor tags are completely seperate, and listed over on pg 325. With the sensor gear. You can't have a stealth sensor tag. Just like you can't have a stealth security tag. They are each their own unique object, and sensor tags can't operate like a stealth tag, per RAW.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 19 2007, 01:11 PM)
You're right, you can manually power down whatever device you'd like to avoid it screaming your location.  Just turn off those cyberlegs and good luck with your run.

Or keep switching them right back off. Doing so isn't even listed as an action and you can probably even tell your commlink or whatever else to keep switching its wireless connectivity off for you automagically. The insidious aspect of Activators is that you don't necessarily know its turning them on unless it becomes obvious. And, again, it certainly doesn't stop you from countering its affects once you realize you have a problem.

Once again: Minor annoyance. Not "completely renders all your devices utterly useless 100% of the time forever and ever until they wear off."

What's more, Activators say nothing about actually turning wireless connectivity on. It just subscribes you to nodes or opens them up to unrestricted access. If wireless is turned off, both of those functions are useless.
Tarantula
Actually, they work like a toxin. So, you're right, they go in, and open everything once. Once you notice, you can just as easily spend an action per device to shut them back down.

Opening up to unrestricted access I would argue includes toggling wireless on if wireless is currently off.
Jaid
QUOTE (Tarantula)
As far as stealth tags. The options for tags SR4, 319, are, Standard RFID tags, Security Tags, and Stealth tags. Security tags are merely hardened RFID tags. Stealth tags are merely standard that don't respond without the proper passcode.

Sensor tags are completely seperate, and listed over on pg 325. With the sensor gear. You can't have a stealth sensor tag. Just like you can't have a stealth security tag. They are each their own unique object, and sensor tags can't operate like a stealth tag, per RAW.

see, that's where you're wrong. that's the cost to install given sensors into an RFID.

it is not an actual RFID. you can't declare that you have 1,000,000,000 sensor RFIDs (without any sensors, and therefore free according to you) at chargen for example, unless you buy 1,000,000,000 RFID tags first.
Bira
QUOTE (Tarantula)
If a game is utilizing the optional rule to redline a cyberlimb for bonus stats (Aug, 44) then if a hacker successfully infiltrates a limb, could he just redline it to cause the character using it to have to resist a painful stun damage every time? (For example, redlining someones standard cyberarm with strength 3 to 6 making him resist 6S every combat turn)?

As a side note, since its only every combat turn, that means a character benefits more from redlining if they have 2-4 IPs in that turn, since they can act more and utilize their redlined stats more.

My take on it is that "redlining" a limb is not a purely mental action. You have to both disengage the safety locks and actually exert the augmented level of strenght. The damage happens because the limbs threaten to tear off from their sockets, as the pull they exert on your weak flesh becomes too great to bear.

So yeah, while a hacker might theoretically disengage the safeties for someone's limbs, the target usually won't take damage because of this.
Cain
QUOTE

Funk, as for as your "replace them with stealth tags" thats fine. Except stealth tags are NOT sensor tags, and as such, they're worthless. Since they can't have a sensor, they can't give diagnostics, they'll sit there being quiet, and tell the doctor the same thing whether the plates fine, or has a bullet hole in it.


Changed my mind. If you implant RFID tags in bone lacing, of the non-sensor variety, you can easily tell if the bones are broken or dislocated by running a scanner over them. You don't need sensors to tell you that.

QUOTE
You're right, you can manually power down whatever device you'd like to avoid it screaming your location. Just turn off those cyberlegs and good luck with your run.

You can also add manual controls to deactivate certain features of a cyberlimb, not just the whole thing. For example, if you have flex hands, you don't have to go around with them flopping about the whole time. If you add a manual control for the wireless, you can just shut it down without shutting down the whole thing. Also, if you define your control as a physical switch, it becomes impossible for activators to turn it back on: an incomplete circuit is an incomplete circuit, after all.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 19 2007, 02:11 PM)
As far as stealth tags.  The options for tags SR4, 319, are, Standard RFID tags, Security Tags, and Stealth tags.  Security tags are merely hardened RFID tags.  Stealth tags are merely standard that don't respond without the proper passcode.

Sensor tags are completely seperate, and listed over on pg 325.  With the sensor gear.  You can't have a stealth sensor tag.  Just like you can't have a stealth security tag.  They are each their own unique object, and sensor tags can't operate like a stealth tag, per RAW.

see, that's where you're wrong. that's the cost to install given sensors into an RFID.

it is not an actual RFID. you can't declare that you have 1,000,000,000 sensor RFIDs (without any sensors, and therefore free according to you) at chargen for example, unless you buy 1,000,000,000 RFID tags first.

And how do you buy normal handheld sensors then? The cost is in the sensors inside it, obviously they felt justified in making the box that holds/controls them have a negligible cost. Thusly, yes, an rfid sensor cost is included within the sensor embedded in it.

Bira: What happens when they redline the cyberlimbs body attribute? What actual "use" of the limb would cause the damage to the user?

Cain: How so? By location of the RFID tags? You'd need a whole lot of them to accomplish that then. Also, it wouldn't tell you about anything like a hairline fracture, since that doesn't actually displace bones.

How do you think the activators turn it on in the first place? If they're smart enough to replicate a command for it to turn on the wireless function, I'm sure they're able to connect the wire, which would make your physical switch worthless, and you'd have to utilize the software to shut the wireless off.

As far as the flex hands are concerned, they don't flop around, they only deform under gradual pressure, and return to their normal shape once that pressure is removed.
Cain
QUOTE
Cain: How so? By location of the RFID tags? You'd need a whole lot of them to accomplish that then. Also, it wouldn't tell you about anything like a hairline fracture, since that doesn't actually displace bones.

Not really, not if you know some basic anatomy and assume that the tags were implanted in a set line to follow the curvature of the bone. Your scanner then tells you if they're misaligned, which allows you to go in closer with a pinpoint X-ray. Even hairline fractures might rotate or misalign bones, although you're right that they'd be much more difficult to detect.


QUOTE
How do you think the activators turn it on in the first place? If they're smart enough to replicate a command for it to turn on the wireless function, I'm sure they're able to connect the wire, which would make your physical switch worthless, and you'd have to utilize the software to shut the wireless off.

Sorry, but unless nanites are programmed to connect a wire, they're not going to do it. Remember, nanites are specific. They're not "smart", they're single-minded. The job of activators is to turn stuff on, not to create new circuitry-- that's the job of soft nanites when they implant cyberware.

Now, if someone created a bundle of nanties whose job it was to bridge circuit gaps, that'd be another thing. But since manual switches are very rare, nanties designed to defeat them would be at least as rare, if not nonexistant.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 19 2007, 11:26 PM)
How do you think the activators turn it on in the first place? If they're smart enough to replicate a command for it to turn on the wireless function, I'm sure they're able to connect the wire, which would make your physical switch worthless, and you'd have to utilize the software to shut the wireless off.

Once again, making stuff up. Turning wireless connectivity on is not one of their listed capabilities. They attempt to add devices to a subscription list if they can and they attempts to open the device to universal input if they can. With wireless connectivity off, they can't do any of those things. Which is why smart runners keep them turned off when they're not necessary.

And they certainly don't turn wireless connectivity on, disable all further input from the owner, and otherwise turn the nanites into ultrapowerful godlike entities as per Draconis' attempt to create something new. Despite two of you claiming that's exactly what they do and Draconis was just describing them exactly as they function. Which they don't. By any stretch.

Feel free to read the description for Activators as many times as you need to, then quote the exact text therein that states that it turns wireless connectivity on if it's disabled. You can't cradle "RAW" close to your heart and then abandon it as you see fit. Well, you can, but not without coming across as a hypocrite.
Tarantula
First, I already conceeded that you were correct in asserting that Draconis' was describing more than activators could do.

Second, the activator text doesn't say "if they can". It just says they do. They need a wireless capable device (unless wireless is removed, then it is capable of utilizing it). Check, the cyberware can utilize wireless. Now, they either subscribe it to a node, or open it to universal access. Whichever one you wanted them to do.
Aug, 116, "Activators infect wireless-capable devices and perform one of two simple, yet annoying tasks: They either subscribe the infected device to nodes without the user’s permission, or open the device to universal unrestricted access."

So, does the cyberware have wireless capability? If yes, and its infected, then the activators either subscribe it or make it universally accessable. This would include turning the wireless on if it was off, but would not include adding wireless functionality if it was removed.
Ol' Scratch
2) Linking and subscribing is listed on page 212. Nowhere in the text for that function does it say "if wireless connectivity is disabled, it is automatically enabled." Nowhere. Same goes for opening permissions to universal access.

Your "does the cyberware have wireless capability, if so it subscribes it to a list and makes it universally acceptable" does not equate to "does the cyberware have wireless capability, if yes then it TURNS IT ON and subscribes and makes it universally accessible." The capitalized step is completely missing and one that Activators make -no- mention of doing despite your desperate attempts to claim that it does.
Tarantula
It doesn't list for a requirement that the device have an ACTIVE wireless ability. Just that it has the ability for wireless at all. So either a) it is able to subscribe or open the connection without the connection being active, or b) it activates the connection, and can subscribe or open the device.
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula)
It doesn't list for a requirement that the device have an ACTIVE wireless ability. Just that it has the ability for wireless at all. So either a) it is able to subscribe or open the connection without the connection being active, or b) it activates the connection, and can subscribe or open the device.

or c) only works on devices that have an active wireless ability.

Just because you don't like the option, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Poll should have taught you that.
Tarantula
The text for activators doesn't say that they can't do it if the wireless is off. It just says the device needs wireless capability, (check), and that they infect it, (check). If those two conditions are met, then they can cause their intended effect.
Ol' Scratch
Still waiting for an actual quote that states Activators turn wireless connectivity on if it's turned off, as opposed to you assuming they do.
Tarantula
The fact that their only requirement for working is that the device have the capability for a wireless connection, not that said connection be currently active.
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