Possessing a lock, How much control does a spirit have? Options

[Buster]

If your spirit successfully possesses a lock or locked item (mechanical or electronic), can the spirit then unlock it and disable its security systems without a lockpicking/hacking test? I figure if a spirit can start up and drive a car it's possessing, it should be able to lock/unlock its doors and disable/enable its security systems.

[Adarael]

If the object has the ability to move its internal parts by itself then I would say yes, the spirit can do that. If it doesn't, the spirit cannot. For example:

A spirit could: direct your computer to particular internet sites if the computer was on. It could turn on your windshield wipers. It could trip a maglock. Start a 2070s car, owing to the 'soft switch on' tech that was alluded to in the rigger books. All of these things can be done using the internals of the machinery.

A spirit could not: open a conventional lock. Start a 2007 model car (that isn't a prius type). Turn on a 2000-era stove. Open a cupboard. Open a door in your house. All these things require outside influence to do because they have no capacity to happen on their own. In the case of a car, it's because the ignition completes a circuit that can't be completed without rotating it. In a computer-controlled car, have it.

I.E. that means that most shit in a 2070 world could be controlled by a posessing spirit, because it can do stuff internally without external physical impetus to do so. Padlocks, conventional locks, and anything that requires human hands to directly operate is still outa luck, though.

[Kyoto Kid]

...great, now B&E Specialists & Hacker Jackers can be made worthless by mages with spirits.

Guess Violet may just as well retire and open a Miracle Shooter arcade then.

(...hissss, growl, snarl, throw tantrum...) :grr:

[Big D]

For a mechanical lock, just use a materialized spirit and rip the lock off. Or the door off it's hinges, details, details.

For an electronic lock, you need a typo (aka a sprite).

EDIT:

[Adarael]

Doubtful, KK. Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. For one, the spirit has to inhabit the item. Generally the OR for such items is going to be very high, meaning the spirit will have to be very high force to even have a chance of success - which in turn means you need not just a rare spirit type, but a rare spirit type at high force.

Even if it does succeed, which is unlikely, the job coulda been done cheaper and faster by some B&E expert. Ask yourself this:
Is it better to have a mage with high-force spirits capable of inhabiting shit?
Or is it better to just give the mage B&E skills?

And as Big D says, oftentimes ripping the door off is just plain faster. The crowbar isn't the most commonly used B&E tool for nothing.

I admit, I also don't understand class-type thinking where a mage shouldn't be able to do things. Of course, I played a mage-decker for a long time.

[Jack Kain]

I don't think a spirit should or could be able to work a maglock. A maglock uses a magnet to hold the door in place. Some might have big bolts to help hold the door but moving parts are not actually required.

Hacking a maglock requires either using a fake "key" be that finger print. Eye scan, passcode an actually key or any combination.

It may also be possible the maglocks are linked to the computer network and can be opened by hacking the security node. (I've never encountered a maglock that could be opened from the network).

The second is opening up the guts and and tripping the maglock directly.

At the very least give the maglock an object resistance equal to its rating

[kzt]

[Adarael]

Oh, I'm not saying opening a maglock would be easy. Or even easier than doing it by hand. I'm just saying that if a spirit can turn a car on, or make your phone ring, or whatnot... that's just as complex as tripping a maglock's bolt.

That said, I'd definitely modify the OR 'complexity level' based on the lock's rating. The higher the rating, the more complex it is.

[The Jopp]

[Buster]

[Moon-Hawk]

Reference the possession sidebar in Street Magic, pg 102, in support of The Jopp

[Buster]

[Kyoto Kid]

[Adarael]

I imagine you're referencing page 86? Let me address it:

As to the first statement, the spirit can't tumble the lock because it has no means to do so. It can't turn a doorknob without outside influence (or the psychokinesis power) any more than it can make you fly by posessing you (unless it has 3d movement/levitate/whathaveyou). Note the line on page 86 about how a gun cannot aim by itself. Same thing with a padlock - the lock is physically incapable of unlocking without an outside force acting upon it.

As to the second, the maglock could get tripped because it's not an electronic control or interface it's altering - just the charge on the magnet. That's something we know spirits can do. How? The section on 86 says toasters can still make toast, and a car can drive and play the radio. That's electronics, not an electronic interface. Tripping a magnet is every bit as simple as making toast or a radio.

I admit, the computer example was bad - I'd forgotten about the 'No AR' rule. However, by the guidelines on page 86, the spirit would not depress the keys or move the mouse on a computer - the electrical signals would just 'go' from those peripherals. Inhabiting spirits do not posess any phantom powers to depress keys. Otherwise the line about the gun could aim itself.

As the sidebar says, though - it's up to the GM what the spirit could and could not do. I wouldn't let a spirit tumble a regular lock, simply because the spirit's 'body' lacks any ability to motivate it's own stuff.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Buster]

Huh?

A possessing spirit can make its stone statue's arms and legs walk, but it can't make its lock's tumblers move?

A possessing spirit can electronically start a car, but not electronically disable its alarms or unlock its maglocks?

[Adarael]

See, I don't allow stone statues what're inhabited to walk around unless they've been built with joints. Because moving is specifically not "something the object can normally do". That's antithetical to the entire nature of a statue.

[hyzmarca]

[Adarael]

I disagree, and would rule differently.
Neither of us is correct or incorrect, however, as GM call has the final say on what a vessel can do on its own.

[Buster]

[hyzmarca]

But if your interpertation is correct, then homunculus vessels are also useless. The section on homunculi is quite clear. They are made with hinges, gears, and other mechanical moving parts so that the spirit can animate them.

If possessing spirits cannot animate mechanical moving parts, then it is kind of stupid to create vessels with mechanical moving parts.

Since the BBB says, quite clearly, that possessing spirits can animate mechanical moving parts, it seems rather obvious that possessing spirits can animate mechanical moving parts.

[Adarael]

RAW states that I am correct. Page 102-103, sidebar. Heading "Dead or Inanimate Vessels."

"Ultimately, it's up to the gamemaster to rule what the spirit can control and what it can't.

Don't be a jackass, Buster. There's no houserule in my call. I just define certain characteristics of 'what objects can mechanically perform' differently than others.

And hyz, you're right. That's a very gray area in my own rulings. However, that's my gut reaction. Mostly because I cannot envision how a spirit could move parts in a lock that specifically have tension set to prevent them from moving on their own. Cars and whatnot, I dunno. A buildup of fluid pressure. Electric switches being thrown. Locks just strike me as something I'd like to remain inviolate from spirit bodying.

[darthmord]

But the text that talked about a spirit possessing a car alluded to the effect that the possessing spirit can drive / control the entire car... which would include the radio, the AC, etc etc.

Much of that nowadays is electronically controlled.

Part of that same example also included text saying a spirit possessing a gun could make it fire yet could NOT make it move since the gun itself is not self-motive.

I would daresay that a good example of a car "controlled / possessed" by a spirit would be K.I.T.T from Knight Rider. That would be what I'd expect a spirit possessing a car or anything else to be like.

[Buster]

[Adarael]

Would you prefer I had said "Refrain from acting in a manner reminiscent of a donkey?"

Please. People routinely say more hurtful things. I fear it not.