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Buster
If your spirit successfully possesses a lock or locked item (mechanical or electronic), can the spirit then unlock it and disable its security systems without a lockpicking/hacking test? I figure if a spirit can start up and drive a car it's possessing, it should be able to lock/unlock its doors and disable/enable its security systems.
Adarael
If the object has the ability to move its internal parts by itself then I would say yes, the spirit can do that. If it doesn't, the spirit cannot. For example:

A spirit could: direct your computer to particular internet sites if the computer was on. It could turn on your windshield wipers. It could trip a maglock. Start a 2070s car, owing to the 'soft switch on' tech that was alluded to in the rigger books. All of these things can be done using the internals of the machinery.

A spirit could not: open a conventional lock. Start a 2007 model car (that isn't a prius type). Turn on a 2000-era stove. Open a cupboard. Open a door in your house. All these things require outside influence to do because they have no capacity to happen on their own. In the case of a car, it's because the ignition completes a circuit that can't be completed without rotating it. In a computer-controlled car, have it.

I.E. that means that most shit in a 2070 world could be controlled by a posessing spirit, because it can do stuff internally without external physical impetus to do so. Padlocks, conventional locks, and anything that requires human hands to directly operate is still outa luck, though.
Kyoto Kid
...great, now B&E Specialists & Hacker Jackers can be made worthless by mages with spirits.

Guess Violet may just as well retire and open a Miracle Shooter arcade then.

(...hissss, growl, snarl, throw tantrum...) mad.gif
Big D
For a mechanical lock, just use a materialized spirit and rip the lock off. Or the door off it's hinges, details, details.

For an electronic lock, you need a typo (aka a sprite).

EDIT:
QUOTE
...great, now B&E Specialists & Hacker Jackers can be made worthless by mages with spirits.

That's always, technically, been the case, since a spirit could just rip off the door (or for a car, Levitate/Concealment/Movement). biggrin.gif
Adarael
Doubtful, KK. Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. For one, the spirit has to inhabit the item. Generally the OR for such items is going to be very high, meaning the spirit will have to be very high force to even have a chance of success - which in turn means you need not just a rare spirit type, but a rare spirit type at high force.

Even if it does succeed, which is unlikely, the job coulda been done cheaper and faster by some B&E expert. Ask yourself this:
Is it better to have a mage with high-force spirits capable of inhabiting shit?
Or is it better to just give the mage B&E skills?

And as Big D says, oftentimes ripping the door off is just plain faster. The crowbar isn't the most commonly used B&E tool for nothing.

I admit, I also don't understand class-type thinking where a mage shouldn't be able to do things. Of course, I played a mage-decker for a long time.
Jack Kain
I don't think a spirit should or could be able to work a maglock. A maglock uses a magnet to hold the door in place. Some might have big bolts to help hold the door but moving parts are not actually required.

Hacking a maglock requires either using a fake "key" be that finger print. Eye scan, passcode an actually key or any combination.

It may also be possible the maglocks are linked to the computer network and can be opened by hacking the security node. (I've never encountered a maglock that could be opened from the network).

The second is opening up the guts and and tripping the maglock directly.

At the very least give the maglock an object resistance equal to its rating

kzt
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
It may also be possible the maglocks are linked to the computer network and can be opened by hacking the security node. (I've never encountered a maglock that could be opened from the network).

The ones we actually use today in our buildings can be. The security management system can unlock locks as required.
Adarael
Oh, I'm not saying opening a maglock would be easy. Or even easier than doing it by hand. I'm just saying that if a spirit can turn a car on, or make your phone ring, or whatnot... that's just as complex as tripping a maglock's bolt.

That said, I'd definitely modify the OR 'complexity level' based on the lock's rating. The higher the rating, the more complex it is.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Adarael)
If the object has the ability to move its internal parts by itself then I would say yes, the spirit can do that. If it doesn't, the spirit cannot. For example:

A spirit could: direct your computer to particular internet sites if the computer was on. It could turn on your windshield wipers. It could trip a maglock. Start a 2070s car, owing to the 'soft switch on' tech that was alluded to in the rigger books. All of these things can be done using the internals of the machinery.

A spirit could not: open a conventional lock. Start a 2007 model car (that isn't a prius type). Turn on a 2000-era stove. Open a cupboard. Open a door in your house. All these things require outside influence to do because they have no capacity to happen on their own. In the case of a car, it's because the ignition completes a circuit that can't be completed without rotating it. In a computer-controlled car, have it.

I.E. that means that most shit in a 2070 world could be controlled by a posessing spirit, because it can do stuff internally without external physical impetus to do so. Padlocks, conventional locks, and anything that requires human hands to directly operate is still outa luck, though.

Actually you have it completely backwards.

If there are mechanical parts that can be moved like the wheels on a car and the tumblers in a lock then the spirit can affect it.

It CANNOT affect any electronically controlled parts. It can onthe other hand use a commlinks keyboard and mouse controls as they are mechanical parts that can be moved or pushed. it cannot affect AR objects or control an electronic lock unless there is a button it can push.

Its actually EASIER for it to control non-electronic parts like older cars that have ignition keys instead of electronic locks and maglock keys.
Buster
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
It may also be possible the maglocks are linked to the computer network and can be opened by hacking the security node. (I've never encountered a maglock that could be opened from the network).

We have that now, the commercials for OnStar show it.
Moon-Hawk
Reference the possession sidebar in Street Magic, pg 102, in support of The Jopp
Buster
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Aug 22 2007, 03:02 PM)
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 22 2007, 06:57 PM)
If the object has the ability to move its internal parts by itself then I would say yes, the spirit can do that. If it doesn't, the spirit cannot. For example:

A spirit could: direct your computer to particular internet sites if the computer was on. It could turn on your windshield wipers. It could trip a maglock. Start a 2070s car, owing to the 'soft switch on' tech that was alluded to in the rigger books. All of these things can be done using the internals of the machinery.

A spirit could not: open a conventional lock. Start a 2007 model car (that isn't a prius type). Turn on a 2000-era stove. Open a cupboard. Open a door in your house. All these things require outside influence to do because they have no capacity to happen on their own. In the case of a car, it's because the ignition completes a circuit that can't be completed without rotating it. In a computer-controlled car, have it.

I.E. that means that most shit in a 2070 world could be controlled by a posessing spirit, because it can do stuff internally without external physical impetus to do so. Padlocks, conventional locks, and anything that requires human hands to directly operate is still outa luck, though.

Actually you have it completely backwards.

If there are mechanical parts that can be moved like the wheels on a car and the tumblers in a lock then the spirit can affect it.

It CANNOT affect any electronically controlled parts. It can onthe other hand use a commlinks keyboard and mouse controls as they are mechanical parts that can be moved or pushed. it cannot affect AR objects or control an electronic lock unless there is a button it can push.

Its actually EASIER for it to control non-electronic parts like older cars that have ignition keys instead of electronic locks and maglock keys.

A possessing spirit can start a car, and that's an electronic switch in 2070. A possessing spirit also definitely can use AR, check out the FAQ and errata (EDIT: scheisskopf krauts, where the hell is shadowrunrpg.com?). A possessing spirit can also walk around in a stone body, so it can move mechanical objects too.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Adarael)
I admit, I also don't understand class-type thinking where a mage shouldn't be able to do things. Of course, I played a mage-decker for a long time.

...guess I'm just getting weary of hearing magic & spirits touted as being just as good if not better for dealing with every bloody mundane task/effect in the book. A lot of my vehemence regarding this topic comes from mage PCs I dealt with that would do insane things like that and steal the spotlight from the other characters. There are times I wish that SR would have followed more along the lines of CP keeping tech the dominant force and relegating magic more to the background.

...but I digress. Been down that discussion road one too many times and my Cerebral Booster hurts. Think I'll head off to the pub now, I hear there's an Imperial of IPA with my name on it waiting for me.

...Cheers
Adarael
I imagine you're referencing page 86? Let me address it:

As to the first statement, the spirit can't tumble the lock because it has no means to do so. It can't turn a doorknob without outside influence (or the psychokinesis power) any more than it can make you fly by posessing you (unless it has 3d movement/levitate/whathaveyou). Note the line on page 86 about how a gun cannot aim by itself. Same thing with a padlock - the lock is physically incapable of unlocking without an outside force acting upon it.

As to the second, the maglock could get tripped because it's not an electronic control or interface it's altering - just the charge on the magnet. That's something we know spirits can do. How? The section on 86 says toasters can still make toast, and a car can drive and play the radio. That's electronics, not an electronic interface. Tripping a magnet is every bit as simple as making toast or a radio.

I admit, the computer example was bad - I'd forgotten about the 'No AR' rule. However, by the guidelines on page 86, the spirit would not depress the keys or move the mouse on a computer - the electrical signals would just 'go' from those peripherals. Inhabiting spirits do not posess any phantom powers to depress keys. Otherwise the line about the gun could aim itself.

As the sidebar says, though - it's up to the GM what the spirit could and could not do. I wouldn't let a spirit tumble a regular lock, simply because the spirit's 'body' lacks any ability to motivate it's own stuff.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Buster)
A possessing spirit also definitely can use AR, check out the FAQ and errata. A possessing spirit can also walk around in a stone body, so it can move mechanical objects too.

The Errata v1.5 doesn't say anything about possessing spirits and AR.
And I'm pretty sure the FAQ section is saying that a spirit which possesses, for example, a man can then use AR through the man's eyes and hands, but the same spirit possessing the commlink itself can not use the AR functions directly.
Buster
Huh?

A possessing spirit can make its stone statue's arms and legs walk, but it can't make its lock's tumblers move?

A possessing spirit can electronically start a car, but not electronically disable its alarms or unlock its maglocks?
Adarael
See, I don't allow stone statues what're inhabited to walk around unless they've been built with joints. Because moving is specifically not "something the object can normally do". That's antithetical to the entire nature of a statue.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Adarael)
I imagine you're referencing page 86? Let me address it:

As to the first statement, the spirit can't tumble the lock because it has no means to do so. It can't turn a doorknob without outside influence (or the psychokinesis power) any more than it can make you fly by posessing you (unless it has 3d movement/levitate/whathaveyou). Note the line on page 86 about how a gun cannot aim by itself. Same thing with a padlock - the lock is physically incapable of unlocking without an outside force acting upon it.

A possessing spirit does not need a means to tumble the lock. It is the lock. The lock has mechanical parts that move, and the spirit's magical nature serves as muscles for the lock.

A gun cannot aim itself because a gun does not have any parts that would aid in aiming. A spirit cannot levitate a possessed body unless it has a spell or power that would all it to do so. It can't just make the gun float in mid air with possession alone. However, if the gun were mounted on a tripod and the spirit possessed the entire assembly, then it could, in fact, aim the weapon. It could aim the weapon because it is supported by legs (and thus can stand on its own) and has a swivel point on which it can move.
If a spirit possessed a car would turret or swivel-mounted gun it could also control that weapon, because the weapon can move mechanically.
Adarael
I disagree, and would rule differently.
Neither of us is correct or incorrect, however, as GM call has the final say on what a vessel can do on its own.
Buster
QUOTE (Adarael)
I disagree, and would rule differently.
Neither of us is correct or incorrect, however, as GM call has the final say on what a vessel can do on its own.

You can always houserule whatever you want, but we're trying to sort out the rules as written.
hyzmarca
But if your interpertation is correct, then homunculus vessels are also useless. The section on homunculi is quite clear. They are made with hinges, gears, and other mechanical moving parts so that the spirit can animate them.

If possessing spirits cannot animate mechanical moving parts, then it is kind of stupid to create vessels with mechanical moving parts.

Since the BBB says, quite clearly, that possessing spirits can animate mechanical moving parts, it seems rather obvious that possessing spirits can animate mechanical moving parts.
Adarael
RAW states that I am correct. Page 102-103, sidebar. Heading "Dead or Inanimate Vessels."

"Ultimately, it's up to the gamemaster to rule what the spirit can control and what it can't.

Don't be a jackass, Buster. There's no houserule in my call. I just define certain characteristics of 'what objects can mechanically perform' differently than others.

And hyz, you're right. That's a very gray area in my own rulings. However, that's my gut reaction. Mostly because I cannot envision how a spirit could move parts in a lock that specifically have tension set to prevent them from moving on their own. Cars and whatnot, I dunno. A buildup of fluid pressure. Electric switches being thrown. Locks just strike me as something I'd like to remain inviolate from spirit bodying.
darthmord
But the text that talked about a spirit possessing a car alluded to the effect that the possessing spirit can drive / control the entire car... which would include the radio, the AC, etc etc.

Much of that nowadays is electronically controlled.

Part of that same example also included text saying a spirit possessing a gun could make it fire yet could NOT make it move since the gun itself is not self-motive.

I would daresay that a good example of a car "controlled / possessed" by a spirit would be K.I.T.T from Knight Rider. That would be what I'd expect a spirit possessing a car or anything else to be like.
Buster
QUOTE (Adarael)
Don't be a jackass, Buster.

You have been reported. Have a nice day. smile.gif
Adarael
Would you prefer I had said "Refrain from acting in a manner reminiscent of a donkey?"

Please. People routinely say more hurtful things. I fear it not.
raphabonelli
QUOTE (darthmord)
Part of that same example also included text saying a spirit possessing a gun could make it fire yet could NOT make it move since the gun itself is not self-motive.

Since the text say's nothing about the gun being a smartgun, i guess that, at least, proves that the spirit can move mechanical parts, since it will need to pull the trigger to fire. On this one, i´m with hizmarca: the gun can't aim itself because it would need to "float" in the air to do so... but could do, for exemple, if mounted.
Buster
I can definitely see how a possessing spirit can open a mechanical lock because of all the references to moving mechanical homunculi and firing guns. However, I can't really find any more references to spirits being able to activate/control electronic devices they possess other than the reference of starting a car. I wonder if the game designers forgot that cars are not started with a mechanical switch in 2070?
hyzmarca
A spirit possessing a car can bypass the starter switch altogether and manually force fuel into the Carburetor and manually fire the spark plugs. A spirit possessing a car is the car, and the engine is the car's heart and lungs. A spirit possessing a car can internally combust just as easily as we can breath.

Electric cars are more problematic, but there are still physical switches.
Fortune
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 23 2007, 06:16 AM)
The section on 86 says toasters can still make toast, and a car can drive and play the radio. That's electronics, not an electronic interface. Tripping a magnet is every bit as simple as making toast or a radio.

Does that section actually state that the Spirit can in fact do those things, or merely that the toaster will still pop while Possessed, and the car is still capable of being driven?
Big D
I believe it's said somewhere (might have been here) that a possessed car can drive itself, it just can't use things like Gridlink.
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