 Moleskin, The Dragon behind the Papacy? |
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 Aug 26 2007, 03:31 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483  |
I guess that is the upside of being nigh immortal. Eventually your messiah is pretty much bound to show up.
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Aug 26 2007, 03:58 PM
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#27
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Okay...on a taste note...I hope that Moleskin creating proto-Christianity never ever ever becomes SR canon.
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Aug 26 2007, 04:02 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Unless Moleskin moved to the Middle East, it isn't proto-Christianity.
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Aug 26 2007, 05:22 PM
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#29
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
He didn't create that. That's never said or implied. What he did do is tell everyone that it was coming, then set back to reap the benefits of being a "prophet". Screwed up religious view though. "The guy that's gonna save your soul doesn't exist yet. So you're going to hell until he does. Better get your worshiping in now, so you can get back out!" |
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Aug 26 2007, 10:39 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
In Black Maddona, Leonardo says that he was one of Jesus's disciples, "Doubting Thomas", to be precise. But he could have been lying; it turns out in a later novel that he engineered that whole incident with the nukes to fool some shadworunners. At the end of that second novel, Lofwyr shows up to chastise him by destroying his "great work". I got the impression Leo was building a safe haven from the next scourge, where he would protect all the great scholars, artists, and thinkers when the time came. But during the events of "Corporate War", he dissapears. Where he went, I don't know, but the book says he had recently concluded a pact with Hestaby.
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Aug 26 2007, 11:01 PM
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#31
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Wow. A dragon that appears in the worst chapter of the worst FASA-ED-book is still around in SR. :please: Anyway, thanks for the info, Fisty. :) |
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Aug 27 2007, 12:22 AM
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#32
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Yeah he's a survivor like that. :D But like Otaku Mike said, that isn't canon. Which was why he left it so very vague. Just an idea that he's been working on. So feel free to ignore at your leisure.
Me, I wrote a small campaign about it. *shrug* I'm crazy like that. |
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Aug 27 2007, 02:35 AM
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#33
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Apparently it was the city of Uomonza in the Dukedom of Jonacolla according to the old Theran Empire sourcebook.
He didn't create Christianity so much as he merely foresaw Jesus turning up and the religion/church that would follow and decided to kick things off a little early. As someone already mentioned Mole Skin is pretty much the Great Dragon by a long shot when it comes to divining/seeing the future which is saying something. So he sees this new religion, thinks to himself 'Hey this universal peace and loving thy neighbour thing is pretty cool' and starts up a church modelled after the teachings of The-One-Who-Is-Yet-To-Come. |
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Aug 27 2007, 08:42 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Moleskin *shudder* damn that was craptastic. Black Madonna was much better.
Uomonza is btw, geographically, approximately where Rome is now. |
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Aug 27 2007, 04:42 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
The interesting thing here is that it seems most ideas about this assume nefarious motives. What if Moleskin foresaw something that made him believe it was all true? (Whether or not all of it actually is true really isn't the concern.) What if he wasn't lying at all?
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Aug 27 2007, 08:34 PM
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#36
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
He says he was? Doesn't mean he can't make some coin off it on the side.
But going on the assumption that there is some sort of God along the lines of Christianity in SR/ED, would dragons even care? I don't think that they're covered inthe plan of salvation, ya' know? |
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Aug 27 2007, 09:31 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Why not? I'd imagine all sentient creatures are.
ON the other hand, I can't take serious anybody names after a common first aid product. I mean, what, is he going to team up with his brothers Band-aid and Neosporin to take over the red cross? |
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Aug 28 2007, 07:17 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Simple - because the whole "Prima"/JudeoChristian bit it literally false in ED/SR, and a great dragon should know this (unless he's insane). Thus, ulterior motives or insanity (my bet personally) are the only real options. |
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Aug 28 2007, 09:12 AM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
How is it literally false? Big clue: Genesis, for starters, took place way before Jesus Christ was born, as did the brunt of the faith that turned into Christianity. "Prima" has to do more with monotheism than a character who wasn't even in the Old Testament until "revisions" took place. |
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Aug 28 2007, 10:04 AM
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#40
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
I tend to think Leo disappeared into Lofwyr's back pocket and helped him (amongst other things) sort out his big matrix off switch.
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Aug 28 2007, 10:43 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Where to start? 1) The Legend of Verjigorm, as told by Icewing/Ghostwalker (Horrors 67-68). Accompanying game info text seems to indicate the story is more or less true. Further, as the oldest continuous culture (that relies on external memory storage to pass it's information), dragons should know something about the world's beginnings. 2) The genealogies in Genesis and the general chronology of the OT put the creation of the Earth at about 4000 BC (ish). This is where young Earth creationists get the figure that the Earth is about 6000 years old. These are genealogies mainly that include this information - it makes no sense to say that they are meant to be metaphoric. Thus, the bible says the Earth is about 6000 years old. Setting history says the Earth is at least 25,000 years old (five previous worlds). Plus, there's that little wrinkle that the bible (the literal word of the supposed all knowing creator of the universe) mentions nothing about ages of magic, metahumans, etc etc etc. 3) If the Genesis account if untrue, then the rest of JudeoChristian theology (particularly about sin and the need for a savior) falls apart. Further, if the creation account is errant, how can any claims about YHVH's omnipotence or the afterlife be taken seriously? 4) Primaist doctrine is virtually identical to Christian doctrine regarding the afterlife and salvation. (The Theran Empire page 134). It foretells that the passion Prima will be born in the next Age and will send an emissary into "the place of torment" to rescue the faithful. Further, it states that the next Age will not be an age of magic but rather dominated by "the truth of Prima". These are so obvious allusions to Christianity that anyone could see them - especially since it stated that Moleskin (who laired "deep beneath the pompate's palace" in Talea btw) foresaw this and began the Primaist religion (The Theran Empire page 138). Thus, if the former is literally false, the later is logically as well. I could go on, but I am purposefully restricting this to ED/SR, so I'll leave it at this for folks to complain about at the moment.
Gee, ya think? Considering I was raised Catholic, spent seven years as a born-again on-fire Christian fundie, and many many hours debating with my former co-religionists since that time, I think I might have picked that tidbit up along the way. Not that it's really possible to be awake in Western culture and miss details like this. Thanks though. :S |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:22 AM
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#42
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Oh. You're one of those people. That's all you had to say from the beginning. No point even saying a word now. |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:34 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Which people? Ex-Christians? Yup. Very familiar with what I'm talking about? Yup. Atheist? Nope (although the more intelligent/rabid ones like Dawkins do amuse me greatly). An asshole? Damn straight! I don't make a habit of trolling Christian forums though, if that's what you think. I have better things to do with my time. Glad to see you agree to my reasoning though ;) :rotfl: |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:51 AM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Nope. An admittedly irrational nutcase who thinks the Bible is a literal interpretation of events. And nope, ignoring you is not agreeing with you (though it does demonstrate my "nutcase" point a bit seeing as how you think that).
Hell, you couldn't avoid being contradictory to yourself in your last post. What would be the point in even bothering to waste my breath on you when you can't even agree with yourself? |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:16 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Hah! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Oh hells, the friends and girlfriend are gonna shit themselves when they hear this, for the sheer irony of it! Considering that I don't think the bible is worth much at all (to put it nicely) as either literal account or metaphor, I can see you're waaaay off base here. For your edification, I am an ex-fundie (though I think I made that clear enough above), done the Wiccan and LaVeyan things each for a while, and I happen to be a pagan of sorts these days (I find the phrase "spiritual anarchist" to be an apt descriptor of my attitude). I find atheists amusing because I like some of what they have to say. Does that clear it up a bit?
Apparently you couldn't tell from the context, but that was sarcasm. Y'know, play with the prey, twist the knife, that sort of thing? Amusing myself, but also giving what I get. Get my point? |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:19 PM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Again, proving my point. |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:25 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Half-hearted attempt to return to the subject at hand:
I don't know if you could accurately describe Primaism as literally false, but it certainly isn't likely to be the direct precursor to Judaism, much less Christianity. |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:28 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It wasn't from what I've read. Just a precursor to monotheism, with allusions to religions to come and the impact they'd have on the world at large.
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Aug 28 2007, 12:29 PM
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#49
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
breath? on a webforum? |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:31 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
What point? That you can't admit when you've fucked up so you resort to personal attacks? Or that you don't bother to read other people's posts before you sound off? Or that it's fine you to belittle others and be a sarcastic ass, but when someone gives you back the same treatment that just the end of the world and they're an "irrational nutcase"? After our last little tiff, PMing with Frank I admitted I crossed the line and slung the first personal insult. I was gonna apologize for that, but Frank thought otherwise (ask him if you don't believe me). But that was then.
Then you obviously didn't read the theology section on page 134 (of the Theran Empire book), either that or you know jack about Christian doctrine. Because they are damn near a precise match.
No, it's definitely not a direct precursor as there is no continuity between the two. A foreshadowing (or mimicry IRL) definitely. |
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