First, let me be clear: I'm most certainly NOT trying to trash anyone's religious beliefs. Just a few questions for the sake of game backround.
In ED, there was a religion called "Primaism", which was based on the Catholic church?
A dragon called Moleskin was behind it?
Has this dragon been active in SR? Some novel or sourcebook I may have missed?
Full Version: Moleskin
the Ancient Files are really handy for this sort of thing.
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) |
| Has this dragon been active in SR? Some novel or sourcebook I may have missed? |
Read the France chapter in Shadows of Europe very carefully.
"Frag, I hate the socratic method." Ok....is Moleskin behind the Black Lodge?
Ok, to be less crytpic ,read the LAVA section. And no, not the Black Lodge. Remember the posts from Synner about that?
No,but thanks for the info. I'm sure I'll be picking over that chapter with a fine toothed comb.
I would just give it to you, but Synner and Otaku Mike made me dig for crap, so now I'm passing on the "fun". Let me know if you get stuck though. I'll put up some more of those fun PMs.
I'm stuck! Put up more of those fun PMs please. 
Psh. You didn't even try. I will later. Give you a little time to put some effort in to it. For all you crazy kids in my game, karma if you can find the reference.
Psh I posted that again a week ago. Look for the Moleskin reference. Come on Old Man you can do better than that . 
This was what was requested.
| QUOTE (Fisty) |
| And no, not the Black Lodge. Remember the posts from Synner about that? |
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) |
| No,but thanks for the info. |
| QUOTE (Fistmeister) |
| I would just give it to you, but Synner and Otaku Mike made me dig for crap, so now I'm passing on the "fun". |
| QUOTE (Fistburger) |
| Give you a little time to put some effort in to it. For all you crazy kids in my game, karma if you can find the reference. |
See? Keep up!
"the Mole's Well"....so, he has not woken yet? Or is he that nasty dwarf in charge of the seer's guild?
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi Original Post) |
| Has this dragon been active in SR? Some novel or sourcebook I may have missed? |
I know, I know, it throws you off seeing me not on a thread tangent, but these are crazy times!
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) |
| "the Mole's Well"....so, he has not woken yet? |
There now see Fortune, taht wasn't so hard. Yeah that's the only reference he gives it. The decision was that there will already too many active Great Dragons, so he jsut owrked it in on the sly incase anyone wanted to run with it. Give me a sec and I'll dig out the PM.
*shakes head in dissapointment at Fortune*
| QUOTE (Otaku Mike) |
| Hey, I'm glad I could be useful to a fellow GM and SR fan. When I'm writing for SR, I'm aiming only for that. BTW, a secret info just for you: The soil in Auvergne has special quality because it comes from deep inside the earth (and some other mysterious reason at the GM's discretion). When I wrote Auvergne, I always envisioned the thing as a mix of True Earth and True Fire (yep, the stuff from Earthdawn), diluted in regular soil. Some peebles even are less diluted than others (hence the possibility to use them as natural radicals for alchemy). No wonder weird things happen then, huh? Also, but this is much less secret canon and more of a personal take on it: there is really a sleeping dragon under the Puy de la Taupe. And as the name of the volcano suggests it (Well of the Mole), it's Moleskin himself! Now, what Lofwyr would want with him, hmm? Again, have fun with your game! I envy you, you know? Thailand is very limited when it comes to RPG... Mike |
| QUOTE (otaku Mike) |
| Sorry about the multiple replies. I always realize I forgot something after I clicked on send... A bit more info on Moleskin: according to some sources and extrapolations, Moleskin could very well be the "father" of monotheism (ei christianity) in the 5th world. Opens the door for many theories, isn't it? As for why he would still be under a volcano while other dragons are awake, this is a mystery even me I have no answer, for I left it deliberately open for GMs. My personal favorite is that he actually is in a magical prison, because other Dragons didn't like his "alternative" faith (which took much power from the Passions) and what it did to humanity (after all, dragonslayers of legends are devout christians, so something in the Moleskin experiment must have gone terribly wrong around the end of the 4th world). Mike -------------------- |
| QUOTE (Otaku Mike) |
| Yeah, that's the fun part with open ended references in the fiction: you can do whatever you like of it. Also, since I stuck that in the text at the last minute, I'm quite sure none of the other freelancer saw it, and I can virtually assure you that it's never going to be dealt with in Canon in the future, so you can do whatever you'd like to that part. Have fun with the conspiracy theories ! Mike |
| QUOTE (Otaku Mike) |
| To be honest with you, I really had no plan for Moleskin. AFAIK, no freelancer has any plan for him either. He's not supposed to come back. Icewing/Ghostwalker already stole that trick. I threw the reference in the most obscure way possible, aware that most would not get it. That was actually a conscious attempt to hide it. If someone catch the reference, they can go wonder what was this about and start the conspiracy theories in their game, and that's great. Otherwise, it's not something that will haunt back the majority of players that "didn't see it coming", simply because I doubt it will ever be developped. So when I tell you to make your own story, it's really because I didn't give it much thoughts, given that it was meant to remain obscure and hidden. This is something that the writters actually do quite often. Something that is referenced in a later book is very rarely meant to be (aside from the big overarching metaplot, which Moleskin isn't part), and usually quite different than the referenced authors had imagined. I'm sure you'll come up with something. You can even discard the whole dragon under the volcano theory, because as it is currently, it's just a rumor, and is not canon (I mean, not validated by Rob as something we'll use later). Mike |
Many thanks, fisty. This would explain Leonardo's distaste for christianity: he knows its an invention by a dragon, while he is still a devotee of one of the ED passions. Why did moleskin do it it the first place? Purely as an experiment, or as "fun"?
He's supposed to be the best diviner there is right? Maybe he just saw the writing on the wall. Get in on the ground level and all that.
Using the church in a manner similar to how Lofwyr uses SK. The group controls the world, but the dragon controls the group.
There's good money in religion ya' know.
Another possibility...perhaps the group that's hunting dragons in SR4 is a remnant of the Cult of the Great Hunter in ED?
Wasn't there mention of a dragon laired under the Vatican at one point?
I remember that in Theran Empire moleskin controlled primaism, but dont recall anything about where he laired, although it was said primaism's "pope" had to travel underground to meet with him occaisionally. Don't recall the name of the ED city where rome now stands.
BTW, fisty, thanks for the info.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Wasn't there mention of a dragon laired under the Vatican at one point? |
Moleskin was under what was the church's main HW at the time. That wouldn't be the Vatican however in ED era since the basis of the religion he was espousing was that Christ wasn't born yet. So if you died, you'd go to hell for a little while.
Or did you mean in SR? In which case; not that I've heard of.
I guess that is the upside of being nigh immortal. Eventually your messiah is pretty much bound to show up.
Okay...on a taste note...I hope that Moleskin creating proto-Christianity never ever ever becomes SR canon.
Unless Moleskin moved to the Middle East, it isn't proto-Christianity.
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Okay...on a taste note...I hope that Moleskin creating proto-Christianity never ever ever becomes SR canon. |
He didn't create that. That's never said or implied. What he did do is tell everyone that it was coming, then set back to reap the benefits of being a "prophet".
Screwed up religious view though. "The guy that's gonna save your soul doesn't exist yet. So you're going to hell until he does. Better get your worshiping in now, so you can get back out!"
In Black Maddona, Leonardo says that he was one of Jesus's disciples, "Doubting Thomas", to be precise. But he could have been lying; it turns out in a later novel that he engineered that whole incident with the nukes to fool some shadworunners. At the end of that second novel, Lofwyr shows up to chastise him by destroying his "great work". I got the impression Leo was building a safe haven from the next scourge, where he would protect all the great scholars, artists, and thinkers when the time came. But during the events of "Corporate War", he dissapears. Where he went, I don't know, but the book says he had recently concluded a pact with Hestaby.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) | ||
Read the France chapter in Shadows of Europe very carefully. |
Wow. A dragon that appears in the worst chapter of the worst FASA-ED-book is still around in SR.
Anyway, thanks for the info, Fisty.
Yeah he's a survivor like that. But like Otaku Mike said, that isn't canon. Which was why he left it so very vague. Just an idea that he's been working on. So feel free to ignore at your leisure.
Me, I wrote a small campaign about it. *shrug* I'm crazy like that.
But like Otaku Mike said, that isn't canon. Which was why he left it so very vague. Just an idea that he's been working on. So feel free to ignore at your leisure.Me, I wrote a small campaign about it. *shrug* I'm crazy like that.
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) |
| Don't recall the name of the ED city where Rome now stands. |
Apparently it was the city of Uomonza in the Dukedom of Jonacolla according to the old Theran Empire sourcebook.
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Okay...on a taste note...I hope that Mole Skin creating proto-Christianity never ever ever becomes SR canon. |
He didn't create Christianity so much as he merely foresaw Jesus turning up and the religion/church that would follow and decided to kick things off a little early. As someone already mentioned Mole Skin is pretty much the Great Dragon by a long shot when it comes to divining/seeing the future which is saying something. So he sees this new religion, thinks to himself 'Hey this universal peace and loving thy neighbour thing is pretty cool' and starts up a church modelled after the teachings of The-One-Who-Is-Yet-To-Come.
Moleskin *shudder* damn that was craptastic. Black Madonna was much better.
Uomonza is btw, geographically, approximately where Rome is now.
Uomonza is btw, geographically, approximately where Rome is now.
The interesting thing here is that it seems most ideas about this assume nefarious motives. What if Moleskin foresaw something that made him believe it was all true? (Whether or not all of it actually is true really isn't the concern.) What if he wasn't lying at all?
He says he was? Doesn't mean he can't make some coin off it on the side.
But going on the assumption that there is some sort of God along the lines of Christianity in SR/ED, would dragons even care? I don't think that they're covered inthe plan of salvation, ya' know?
But going on the assumption that there is some sort of God along the lines of Christianity in SR/ED, would dragons even care? I don't think that they're covered inthe plan of salvation, ya' know?
Why not? I'd imagine all sentient creatures are.
ON the other hand, I can't take serious anybody names after a common first aid product. I mean, what, is he going to team up with his brothers Band-aid and Neosporin to take over the red cross?
ON the other hand, I can't take serious anybody names after a common first aid product. I mean, what, is he going to team up with his brothers Band-aid and Neosporin to take over the red cross?
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| The interesting thing here is that it seems most ideas about this assume nefarious motives. What if Moleskin foresaw something that made him believe it was all true? (Whether or not all of it actually is true really isn't the concern.) What if he wasn't lying at all? |
Simple - because the whole "Prima"/JudeoChristian bit it literally false in ED/SR, and a great dragon should know this (unless he's insane). Thus, ulterior motives or insanity (my bet personally) are the only real options.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| Simple - because the whole "Prima"/JudeoChristian bit it literally false in ED/SR, and a great dragon should know this (unless he's insane). Thus, ulterior motives or insanity (my bet personally) are the only real options. |
How is it literally false? Big clue: Genesis, for starters, took place way before Jesus Christ was born, as did the brunt of the faith that turned into Christianity. "Prima" has to do more with monotheism than a character who wasn't even in the Old Testament until "revisions" took place.
I tend to think Leo disappeared into Lofwyr's back pocket and helped him (amongst other things) sort out his big matrix off switch.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| How is it literally false?....."Prima" has to do more with monotheism than a character who wasn't even in the Old Testament until "revisions" took place. |
Where to start?
1) The Legend of Verjigorm, as told by Icewing/Ghostwalker (Horrors 67-68). Accompanying game info text seems to indicate the story is more or less true. Further, as the oldest continuous culture (that relies on external memory storage to pass it's information), dragons should know something about the world's beginnings.
2) The genealogies in Genesis and the general chronology of the OT put the creation of the Earth at about 4000 BC (ish). This is where young Earth creationists get the figure that the Earth is about 6000 years old. These are genealogies mainly that include this information - it makes no sense to say that they are meant to be metaphoric. Thus, the bible says the Earth is about 6000 years old. Setting history says the Earth is at least 25,000 years old (five previous worlds). Plus, there's that little wrinkle that the bible (the literal word of the supposed all knowing creator of the universe) mentions nothing about ages of magic, metahumans, etc etc etc.
3) If the Genesis account if untrue, then the rest of JudeoChristian theology (particularly about sin and the need for a savior) falls apart. Further, if the creation account is errant, how can any claims about YHVH's omnipotence or the afterlife be taken seriously?
4) Primaist doctrine is virtually identical to Christian doctrine regarding the afterlife and salvation. (The Theran Empire page 134). It foretells that the passion Prima will be born in the next Age and will send an emissary into "the place of torment" to rescue the faithful. Further, it states that the next Age will not be an age of magic but rather dominated by "the truth of Prima". These are so obvious allusions to Christianity that anyone could see them - especially since it stated that Moleskin (who laired "deep beneath the pompate's palace" in Talea btw) foresaw this and began the Primaist religion (The Theran Empire page 138). Thus, if the former is literally false, the later is logically as well.
I could go on, but I am purposefully restricting this to ED/SR, so I'll leave it at this for folks to complain about at the moment.
| QUOTE |
| Big clue: Genesis, for starters, took place way before Jesus Christ was born, as did the brunt of the faith that turned into Christianity. |
Gee, ya think? Considering I was raised Catholic, spent seven years as a born-again on-fire Christian fundie, and many many hours debating with my former co-religionists since that time, I think I might have picked that tidbit up along the way. Not that it's really possible to be awake in Western culture and miss details like this. Thanks though.
| QUOTE |
| Considering I was raised Catholic, spent seven years as a born-again on-fire Christian fundie, and many many hours debating with my former co-religionists since that time... |
Oh. You're one of those people. That's all you had to say from the beginning. No point even saying a word now.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Oh. You're one of those people. That's all you had to say from the beginning. No point even saying a word now. |
Which people? Ex-Christians? Yup. Very familiar with what I'm talking about? Yup. Atheist? Nope (although the more intelligent/rabid ones like Dawkins do amuse me greatly). An asshole? Damn straight! I don't make a habit of trolling Christian forums though, if that's what you think. I have better things to do with my time.
Glad to see you agree to my reasoning though
Nope. An admittedly irrational nutcase who thinks the Bible is a literal interpretation of events. And nope, ignoring you is not agreeing with you (though it does demonstrate my "nutcase" point a bit seeing as how you think that).
Hell, you couldn't avoid being contradictory to yourself in your last post. What would be the point in even bothering to waste my breath on you when you can't even agree with yourself?
Hell, you couldn't avoid being contradictory to yourself in your last post. What would be the point in even bothering to waste my breath on you when you can't even agree with yourself?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Nope. An admittedly irrational nutcase who thinks the Bible is a literal interpretation of events. |
Hah!
Oh hells, the friends and girlfriend are gonna shit themselves when they hear this, for the sheer irony of it! Considering that I don't think the bible is worth much at all (to put it nicely) as either literal account or metaphor, I can see you're waaaay off base here. For your edification, I am an ex-fundie (though I think I made that clear enough above), done the Wiccan and LaVeyan things each for a while, and I happen to be a pagan of sorts these days (I find the phrase "spiritual anarchist" to be an apt descriptor of my attitude). I find atheists amusing because I like some of what they have to say.Does that clear it up a bit?
| QUOTE |
| And nope, ignoring you is not agreeing with you (though it does demonstrate my "nutcase" point a bit seeing as how you think that). Hell, you couldn't avoid being contradictory to yourself in your last post. What would be the point in even bothering to waste my breath on you when you can't even agree with yourself? |
Apparently you couldn't tell from the context, but that was sarcasm. Y'know, play with the prey, twist the knife, that sort of thing? Amusing myself, but also giving what I get. Get my point?
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| Apparently you couldn't tell from the context, but that was sarcasm. Y'know, play with the prey, twist the knife, that sort of thing? Amusing myself, but also giving what I get. Get my point? |
Again, proving my point.
Half-hearted attempt to return to the subject at hand:
I don't know if you could accurately describe Primaism as literally false, but it certainly isn't likely to be the direct precursor to Judaism, much less Christianity.
I don't know if you could accurately describe Primaism as literally false, but it certainly isn't likely to be the direct precursor to Judaism, much less Christianity.
It wasn't from what I've read. Just a precursor to monotheism, with allusions to religions to come and the impact they'd have on the world at large.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| What would be the point in even bothering to waste my breath on you when you can't even agree with yourself? |
breath? on a webforum?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Again, proving my point. |
What point? That you can't admit when you've fucked up so you resort to personal attacks? Or that you don't bother to read other people's posts before you sound off? Or that it's fine you to belittle others and be a sarcastic ass, but when someone gives you back the same treatment that just the end of the world and they're an "irrational nutcase"?
After our last little tiff, PMing with Frank I admitted I crossed the line and slung the first personal insult. I was gonna apologize for that, but Frank thought otherwise (ask him if you don't believe me). But that was then.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Just a precursor to monotheism, with allusions to religions to come and the impact they'd have on the world at large. |
Then you obviously didn't read the theology section on page 134 (of the Theran Empire book), either that or you know jack about Christian doctrine. Because they are damn near a precise match.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| I don't know if you could accurately describe Primaism as literally false, but it certainly isn't likely to be the direct precursor to Judaism, much less Christianity. |
No, it's definitely not a direct precursor as there is no continuity between the two. A foreshadowing (or mimicry IRL) definitely.
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