 Obvious rule problems, What are the worst problems in sr4 |
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 Aug 28 2007, 10:51 AM
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 19-March 03 From: Central IL Member No.: 4,278  |
My group played sr 4 for a couple of runs here and there but are about to start our frst sr4 campaign, my question is what rules have been found to be totally broken or unusable? We are veteran SR players and will quckly find any holes, so I would love a heads up on them so we can work to start fixing them now. So far we have found edge is too good unless you cutback how often it refreshes and we are looking at letting people go above skills of 6/7, but paying a ton of karma to do so, so that if you choose to it is not for a mechanical edge, but more for people who want to be renown for their crazy skill in whatever it is. I like the suggestions on how to cut back on spirit edge abuse in Street Magic too. It also seems like called shots need some review. I am nost sure what the mods would be for shooting someone in the head, I know by the rules you can bypass armor by subtracting armor rating from your dice, or increase dmg in the same way. So if you shoot someone in the head do both apply?? If your already taking -4 dice for +4 dmg to shoot them in the head, why does their armor rating make that harder??? And if not then their armor would still apply by the rules right??
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Aug 28 2007, 11:22 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
The fact that a little old lady (Agility 1, no Pistols skill) is utterly incapable of killing someone with a Ruger Super Warhawk (6P/-2) in one shot, even if she has the barrel duct taped to their temple (by RAW).
The fact that a punk kid (Agility 2, Pistols 1) can kill the average teacher (Body 3) with a single shot to the head from a holdout (4P). The fact that neither of these people can ever attempt shooting someone in the head (called shot -4 dice, +4 damage) since they don't have Edge. The fact the a bunch of gangers with assault rifles (firing full auto) are still less of a threat statistically than they would be if they were each just firing a heavy pistol. The fact that Edge is functionally just a set of "extra lives". Attribute enhancement caps. Skill caps. |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:46 AM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You mean the little old lady who's just shy of being a complete cripple is missing someone? God forbid. (Keep in mind I'm ignoring the retardedness of your last bit of the comment [hint: Aimed Shot], and nevermind the text on page 106 that states that it's up to a GM to determine the modifiers for special situations -- you know, like having a gun duct-taped to someone's skull.)
First you're upset that a little old lady who can barely stand has trouble killing someone to being upset that a slightly underfit kid who's had training with a pistol can kill someone (nevermind that I don't see how you're getting the instant killwithout assuming Edge or Aimed Shot in this case). What exactly is your point, again? I'm extremely lost.
Which orifice are you pulling this out of? All Humans have at least an Edge of 2 and all non-Humans have at least ann Edge of 1 by default. Feel free to look up any sample contacts to verify if you don't believe me.
Suppressive fire is far more scary than a single shot from a pistol. Especially if you're house ruling (which you apparently are, for whatever bizarre reason) that no one but a Shadowrunner has Edge. Since, you know, the test to resist Suppressive Fire is Reaction + Edge with a threshold equal to the attacker's Agility + Firearms. And assuming an average ganger has an Agility of 3 and a Firearms skill of 2 (the Go-Ganger sample contact has Pistols 2, but we can assume they have it in Automatics instead if you're using that as your example), that's 5 dice to the defender's 3 dice, and they're defending against multiple attacks to boot.
That's one function of Edge (which I personally hate all around, but that's neither here nor there). But one that only Shadowrunners have in Your Little World™ for whatever odd reason.
Yeah. Your average person should easily be able to have Strength 30. Spot on. How stupid is it that everyone can't be a superhero capable of juggling tanks and destroying buildings at a whim? For serious.
Ditto. Nevermind that a Skill of 7 represents the legendary level of achievement for people (Babe Ruth, James Bond, Einstein, Tesla, etc.), and that hitting 9 or 10 is superhuman. Should be able to have Firearms 30 and really show those amateurs up, huh? SR4 has a few problems, some quite large, but little of what you just spouted out are serious issues so much as 1) problems created due to either some weird house rules you're working under and/or lack of understanding of the game system and 2) forcing weird situations and purposely breaking the system in order to prove your point. |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:49 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Hmm, broken things we've seen so far:
Certain magical loops involving stacking spirits to bootstrap yourself to ultimate power. (See the Dragon Challenge thread for some samples). High force spirits in general can be pretty bad, thankfully the drain on binding high force spirits is higher than most mages will want to risk. The task spirit as a skillwire like substitute (task spirits have a single skill, need car mechanic? call a task spirit. Need a surgeon? call a task spirit) High end ritual sorcery (especially since wards may not protect you from it) may also be broken (see dragon challenge tread and later spawns re: wards vs ritual sorcery) Adept social monsters (mostly due to the stupid brokenness of kinestics) are able to get in excess of 20 dice in all social skills at once. Agents. The matrix rules are not very clearly written leading to problems with robbing a Circuit City and filling all the stolen comm-links with agents, allowing you to take over any system in a few seconds flat. For systems that mostly stay within the rules, knasser has written up some pretty good sample systems. Technomancers. Due to problems with build point scarcity, it is very hard to build a technomancer that cannot be beaten up by a girl scout. In addition, unless you are familiar with exactly how technomancers work (mostly by threading stealth and exploting sprites, apparently) it's possible to build a technomancer that can be beaten up by a girl scout and is still basically useless in the matrix. Armored vehicles. As usual for SR, the rules don't handle anything heavier than a citymaster with any grace. If you plan to have tanks appear in your game, I'd recommend the fixes proposed in my 'hit locations and math thread' (see additional commentary in the 'SR4 stats for a MBT thread'). |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:53 AM
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#5
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Mmmmm. Do I smell gasoline? ;) Okay, my take on it, before the arguments break out: The rules are very good and require minimal tweaking. Things that I have out and out changed are as follows: 1. Only one sprint action allowed per turn. I believe this was the intention and it leads to realistic results whereas the other leads to cartoon results. However, as written you can have multiple sprint actions, so I amended that. 2. The lifting rules are broken. They are written with the apparent intention that on a really good roll, you lift your maximum weight. The trouble is that your average results are way below this, meaning the amount that a character can lift swings absurdly from one second to the next. I use the following which produces very realistic results:
3. Edge. Edge is either an obvious problem or not according to the style of play you want. If you want something with less potential for Road Runner style escapes and a bit more grit and fear, use the following system. It works very, very well for me and parallels the old karma system.
4. Blood Spirits. There's a loophole in the rules that allows them to recurse themselves up to infinite power. Very easily house-ruled, however. 5. Technomancers. If you use these (I don't), then they have a tendancy to be impossible to stop in their chosen area of specialisation (e.g. Stealth, Cyber Combat), whilst being crap at everything else. 6. Cyber tanks. This hasn't come up for me, but I could easily envisage a character putting together an armour-focused cyber character. What with the additional condition boxes and the stacking armour points, they could get pretty tough, pretty fast. That's about it off the top of my head for actual problems. What might be more interesting is things that appear to be problems but turn out not to be. Possession. There was a lot of fuss when that came out, but after some heavy debating (and actual play-time), turns out that in a lot of ways, Materialisation is actually a much better choice. Magic. Resist the urge to fiddle. It actually works very well so long as the GM is playing things properly. This includes using visibility modifiers for spellcasting. Somebody round here had a useful list of things new GMs needed to consider about magic. If they're reading - please share! Caps and skill and attribute levels. I originally intended to remove skill caps when I came to fourth edition. In retrospect, it would have been a terrible idea. If you're coming from a previous edition it is absolutely critical that you readjust your thinking about what the numbers mean. A six in a skill is an absolute world class level of ability. A professional in their field has a skill of 3. All those soldiers who are out fighting Desert Wars? They have 3's in their Automatics skill. 0 in a skill means the typical level of ability for getting by in society. As for attributes, the normal human score is 2, with a 3 for areas that you're particularly good at. This sort of perspective is really, really important for a good Shadowrun game and the caps held maintain this. As regards things like called shots to the head. Shadowrun has a certain level of abstraction. If you make a called shot to the head and you don't get enough successes to kill the victim, then you didn't manage to get them between the eyes, it grazed through their temple or across their jaw or somesuch. Don't put the result before the attempt and conclude that the rolls aren't realistic. Put it the other way around. There are plenty of dice pool modifiers a GM can apply if they wish to (+40 Victim Unconcious, +20 gun pressed against temple ought to do it ;) ). |
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Aug 28 2007, 11:55 AM
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#6
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Whoops. Too late. Where did all those posts come from? :D |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:25 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Yes, if whoever shared this could, that would be awesome. Kudos to Brazila for starting this thread. I will try and think of some things as the work day goes on. I know I have experienced some oddities, but just can't think of the specifics. |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:32 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Talia's "Dragon Challenge" and my "Mr. Magoo Challenge" spawned all kinds of threads about rules questions. Those challenges are good stuff, but tens of pages long.
The ritual magic of doom problem was resolved by Synner (one of the game developers) saying that Wards are volumes of protection rather than walls. If you think of wards as polarized aspected background counts, it resolves all their confusion. Ritual magic is still very powerful though, but wards keep them in check. To fix the blood spirit problem, just cap their maximum force to double their original force. It sort of says that in the rules, but call it a houserule if you want, it'll save you tons of headaches. The possession spirit loophole is resolved by knowing where to look in the books. Possession in general could give you lots of headaches if you don't know where to look. I compiled the possession related questions and answers (with page number references) in my Possession FAQ here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18486 AR, VR, and sim modules spawn all kinds of questions, so I compiled an FAQ on those too: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18512 And of course the official FAQ is back online here: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml And here's the official errata: http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/?p=157 |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:39 PM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No they don't, which is why there was debate about the entire thing. Wards were a meaningless obstacle to the ritual spellcasting abuse, which is why a few people (myself included) were trying to put focus on the actual rules for ritual spellcasting as opposed to ignoring it and instead beefing up wards which offered as much protection against ritual spellcasting as a piece of paper does against a bullet. "Everything's okay, we broke how wards work (but always intended them to work this way, HONEST!) so now everything is fine! Erm, so what if an extra 6-12 dice is meaningless against a 100-dice magical bomb? Ignore the man behind the curtain! Wards help! Everything is okay!" |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:40 PM
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#10
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
nah, its just the dragon in the corner eating chilli... |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:42 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Some people don't like hackers being nothing more than scriptkiddies. The rules say that all matrix tests are actually Skill + Program, not Skill + Logic. Here are a couple of good houserules for that:
Matrix tests are Logic + Skill limited to raw hits (not net hits) of the Program rating. (just like magic spells) OR Matrix tests are Logic + Skill and there are no program ratings. If the user does not have the correct program on their commlink, they take the standard -4 penalty for not having the right tools. |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:46 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
The Matrix. If you read the rules, it's all perfectly clear and simple. Once you try to play it, you realize it's missing a lot of information.
You don't really need to houserule anything, but at least to state how some of the things work. If you don't go too deep, you can play it with just the basic rules. But if you have a hacker PC who wants more than that, the best thing to do is to come up with your own interpretation (or to get it from someone else: Serbitar and knasser both have interesting Matrix guidebooks). |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:48 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I thought the debate was resolved by remembering that all spells (including ritual magic spells) are limited to raw hits (not net hits) of the force of the spell. That way even if you throw a million dice at the ritual magic test, you still aren't going to get more than <force> raw hits, which isn't too hard to resist down to zero net hits, especially if you're hiding in a ward (and what bigwig doesn't have a ward around his office and home?). |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:51 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Nope. Edge gets around that for magic (and only magic for some bizarre, twisted reason). Not even a permanent burning of Edge, just a single, common use of it. |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:52 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Do you have the links to those guidebooks? Knasser also created a compilation of standard matrix nodes that was tremendously useful for GMs. I lost the bookmark though. :( |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:56 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
A large caliber round going through one's head generally has a good chance of killing a person regardless of who fired it. Note I'm not talking about hitting the target, but instead how much damage is done. Granny can do a max of 7 boxes with her Warhawk. Ever. Period. She cannot aim because she has no skill rating (page 137). The average schmuck has a CM of 10 boxes. Do the math. This was my point, the "retardedness" was a little thing called exaggeration for effect (ie not serious). I don't know what put a burr in your britches today Knasser, but I don't appreciate it. I have no issue with you, and I'd like to keep it that way ok?
That "can" was a typo, it was meant to be "can't". That should clear that up.
Did I say that? According to RAW, only "important" NPCs (which would logically include contacts) have Edge, grunts have group Edge, and everyone else (aka average schmuck on the street) is out in the cold. If this isn't correct, please let me know. Perhaps I missed something - personally I hope I have.
That's how the players use it, that's why I said "functional" [shrug] Me, I mainly GM.
Again, did I say that? Me, I like natural atts maxed at 1.5 racial max (but paying a buttload of karma to get there), with no limit for enhancements (cyber, adept powers, etc) save Increase spells and the Attribute boost power (which are I cap at double natural or double racial, whichever is lower).
Umm, nooooo - when the game says that 7 is the absolute maximum and then gives examples that include numbers like 10, it becomes clear that the 7 max is just "for the little people". Which is bullshit. I'm not saying it shouldn't cost hundreds of karma to get there or take a damn long time - it should - but it should be mechanically possible.
Oh, you mean like alot of the arguments we've seen recently? |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:57 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Oh that's right, the fix to that is to say that only the hits scored by the actual Edge dice (and the exploding 6's from those Edge dice) count in surpassing the force limit of spells. That way you only have a maximum of 8 extra dice from Edge (not counting the exploding 6's from those 8 dice) which means you are probably only going to get 2 or 3 hits passed the force of the spell. Which nicely limits both ritual sorcery and Aid Sorcery (from bound spirits). |
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Aug 28 2007, 12:57 PM
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,150 |
I really like this. Not that I ever had a problem running the game as written, but this makes more sense to me. I think I'm going to use it. |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:03 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Str and body being seperate stats in a world with guns sucks
carrying capacities as written are weird - 6 is supposed to be a horse |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:04 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Considering you think I'm knasser (even going so far as changing the quote) speaks far more of your mental state than it does anyone else's. |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:06 PM
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Both can be found in their signatures. knasser's website with his Matrix's history and example matrix sites Serbitar's shadowrun supplements including his Matrix guide. |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:07 PM
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#22
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I've been namechecked three times now, :) , so here is the direct link to my Matrix sample sites. Link. It's not quite complete because example five ballooned into something more dramatic that I'm still finishing off. There's quite a bit of fourth edition material in the Shadowrun section of my site (link is the first one in my sig) including some sample characters at various levels of power. There have also been some very interesting threads here in the past couple of months about how the Matrix works. It would be well worth just browsing back through the last six or seven pages of the Fourth Edition pages and look for any threads with 3+ pages. They tend to be the big debates where a lot of stuff gets thrashed out. I have something else to add to the list of broken, now, however. The Cleansing metamagic. As written it makes an absolute mockery of background counts and aspected domains depriving GM's of any atmospheric or tactical use of these things. I haven't bothered to come up with a fix for it as yet, I just haven't got any characters with it in the game. If it becomes necessary, I'll modify it. Also, skimmer feet or whatever they're called in Augmentation. They aren't broken... they're just really, really silly. :wobble: Hope this is all useful. -Khadim. |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:30 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Well excuse the hell outta me. For some dumb reason I thought it was knasser, probably cause I saw his name at the top of the last post while I was typing and copy pasted from the quote box to respond. I'm human, I fuck up, big deal. Glad to know you're so goddamn perfect though your royal highness. (PS - Sorry knasser :dead: ) |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:31 PM
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#24
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
As with any mechanics the extreme ends of the dice curves lead to strange results. This does not happen very often.
(How often are your players going to be rolling two dice to shoot granny with the duct taped gun?) |
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Aug 28 2007, 01:33 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 19-July 07 Member No.: 12,304 |
That would put the "average man" at lifting 100 kg overhead. That seems like a lot of weight for the "average" man to be lifting overhead. From what I've seen and read, average overhead lifts should be about 50-60% of a man's weight, not 100%. 100% is plausible for weights, which are designed to be lifted, but I don't think the rules are meant to simulate lifting objects of ideal dimensions/proportions. |
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