Agent Smith Army problem, How to keep Shadowrun street level Options

[DataStream]

This solution doesn't do much for the IC army aspect but as for Agent Smith....

If we assume AS attacks are over kill for hacking a PAN, then any network that an AS army tries to hack has to go through the first node of a network connected to the matrix. When the AS army enters this node the added traffic has to be noticed alerting someone on the security side. Why not then have the node shut down? This doesn't effect nodes operating on the network behind the matrix node or compromise their security at all. It also limits any damage a AS army could do because they lack the ability to change physical location and try to jump into a different node. At this point security knows they have a missive assault attempt on the public node and begin tracking down the sources of the DDoS attack, landing the hacker in some serious trouble. Yes the corp has to route traffic to another network to support remote users but as the AS army follows this increases their chances of being traced and taken care of.
Agent Smith armies are not a subtle way to hack and really run counter to what I image the goals of a Shadowrunning hacker to be. If the goal is to shut down matrix service and a hacker is willing to invest the time and money into the creation of an Agent Smith army then I say bring it on. They should be prepared for the IC army counter and a gloriously fought Lord of the Rings style showdown! One comlink to rule them all :spin:

[laughingowl]

[Cthulhudreams]

[hobgoblin]

did anyone poke a look at mye quick corp host writeup that i did?

edit:

heh, it had already dropped of the first page. talk about lack of interest.
here is the url, just for kicks:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18863

[Kremlin KOA]

thr true irony of this is that the agent smith 'problem' is almost identical to one of the most common real life hacking methods the DDOS

the major difference is that the bots doing the DDOS are much less intelligent than the ones in SR

[Riley37]

There's the Matrix in the sense of the large number of interconnected nodes, in more or less the same way that the World Wide Web involves lots of interconnected computers (and arpanet did long ago on a different scale). However, whatever matrix rules you use, ought to also be viable if two people on an isolated facility in Antarctica hook up their two comlinks and one of them tries to access the other's private diary. Or if one of them has a stack of comlinks and tries the same. Or if one of them custom-builds a comlink that doesn't have the "standard" built-in limitations.

It seems strained at best to rule that it's impossible to type orders into a stack of comlinks, each running an agent or two. Ruling that most systems are designed to detect self-replicating AI, and designed to send an alert then shut down when they detect AS, is reasonably plausible. So a hacker with AS can trigger shutdowns, but can't usefully change or copy a well-secured system's data with AS.

[Cthulhudreams]

I've just been making a higher powered character that is my want for a game on the boards here, and i've noticed that the agent smith problem is in fact far more low key an insidious in addition to the huge over the top stuff here.

For example, just one agent is as good a hacker than my logic 9 character, and each of the guys drones throw 8 dice for electronic warfare, pretty much by accident.

[Hank]

There's always the simplest solution: no agents.

It makes sense, from my perspective. IC costs the same as an agent, but must be immensly simpler to code. Their orders are:
1) Find something that doesn't belong.
2) Kill it.

Agents have a much tougher job...they have to perform whatever random task they are assigned. It's easy to imagine that such a program would simply be impossible to code.

[FrankTrollman]

The Hackastack is a problem related to but distinct from Agent Smith.

Simply, you can hack in complete AR, meaning that there's no actual connection between you and the computer you are using to hack with. So you can simply have multiple personas in the Matrix. Each commlink you have in the hackastack has the same relationship with you as the one you are "supposed" to use, so it should work normally.

What this means is that Black IC is completely meaningless to you because you've chosen to not allow a direct connection between your brain and the commlink (so you can't take any damage). And also that Matrix damage is pretty unimportant as well since getting your persona crashed would just make you switch to the next commlink in the hackastack (which isn't even an acion, because the other commlinks are already operational).

-Frank

[Feshy]

I don't recall any text that says that a matrix program has a single "whole" icon.

I could easily abstract a rating 5 IC as a pair of wolves, or a horde of rats.

Likewise, having a half dozen agents storm a node should be abstracted as the rating of the original agent. My justification for this is that the agent's rating takes into account its ability to cooperate with itself and other programs. Loading multiple copies of an agent is just throwing more of your hardware resources into the same algoritm -- the game abstracts anything that can use higher rating hardware as a higher rating program. Plus, having 10 identical programs works nowadays because of denial of service -- but in an age of "unlimited" bandwidth, there is no such thing as a DoS attack. Instead, you have 10 programs all attempting to access the exact same weakness on your own icon, and all with the same identical weaknesses on their own icons. It shouldn't add anything to use more than one.

My problem with Agents is that the default starting agent (rating 4) is nearly as capable as the typical default starting hacker (Electronics Group 4 / Hacking Group 4), and costs far less in BP. Edge is the only difference. (Incidentally, agents also make hacking skillsofts useless! You can just use an agent instead, and it'll cost less too!)

[kzt]

10 agents attacking a node is identical to having 10 individual human hackers attacking the node. Agents work like people, and they are expert systems able to do a very good job at whatever they are designed to do. If you want to assume that only one hacker can attack a node at once, I'll suggest that KE will offer a hacking service in which one totally useless incompetent hacker will attack all their subscribers 24x7x365 to keep out the competent hackers.

[Ryu]

That is the very problem - the agent is not really limited compared to its controlling hacker. Until the hacker gets augmented, it will easily have better dicepools. And it offers deniability.

The brain computing idea of Frank is a neat approach, requiring a connection to the users brain. This can also be used to limit the number of agents (mechanic for bound spirits essentially).

Then you need to remove the advantages a rating 6 agent has over moderate hackers. That can be done by making any agent use the hackers skills, as we just mandated a connection to the users brain anyway. Now it is an agent of your brain, and technomancer sprites have some advantage in that they can go independant if need be. If one cares about TMs.

Then you need to say that teamwork tests are beyond the coordinative capabilities of the agents and you are done. A few, usually one, agents per user, abilities scale with the users power level (mages get that all the time), high-end advantage for the hacker due to augmentations.

[Blade]

If anyone's interested, I've got some house rules trying to stay close to the canon while expanding both fluff and rules. There are some fixes for Agent Smith (actually there are rules for doing an Agent Smith attack) and Hackastack and other troubles.

I've been working on the Matrix nearly since SR4 came out, so these aren't just quick and dirty fixes (I hope).

Here they are, just be sure to check page 2 as it has some more details and rules:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...opic=19782&st=0

[FrankTrollman]

Blade, your system doesn't fix Agent Smith at all.

Remember what Cthulhudreams said about the subtlety of the Agent Smith problem? Where he could run electronic warfare on his drones and outmatch all but the most powerful hackers with each and every walking toaster in his van? Where his death agents were rolling more dice than most characters could have? Right, the only thing your rules do to agent attacks is to give defending systems the ability to arbitrarily jack their hacking defense up to infinity if "too many" hack attacks go on simultaneously, which neatly stops the one hundred billion Agents problem.

But it doesn't do shit to the four Agents problem, which is just as game destroying.

Also, giving people the ability to jack their hack defenses up to infinity under any circumstances is really obviously bad precedent in a game where hack attacks used by player characters are supposed to accomplish something.

-Frank

[Blade]

Thanks for your opinion Frank. But next time please make sure you read and understand everything before posting it because your reply has little to no relationship with my system.

[FrankTrollman]

[Blade]

I'm impressed by your inability to divert a bit from your mindset.

Agents you buy at the start of the game ARE NOT independant agents. So you can spend as much BP you want you won't get any independant agent because they're not for sale anywhere.

On page 2, there's something about independant agent swarm that explains how it works to get an independant agent: it's exactly as getting hold of a Nuke or a Thor system.
There are no rules in SR4 for getting a nuke, they aren't in any equipement list and there are flavor explanations (well actually there aren't but I guess that a little bit of common sense should be enough) to why it's the case.

[Stahlseele]

[FrankTrollman]

The nature of the hackastack problem is such that you can't solve things with restrictive agent protocols. It's literally impossible.

A "Persona" in this case can be generated by me holding a commlink and pressing buttons on it. And therefore it can be generated by a crawler drone holding the same commlink and pressing the same buttons. And therefore it can be generated by a computer program which tells the commlink that the same buttons have been pushed.

As long as "I" am distinct from "My Persona" on the Matrix through an actual air gap. So long as that is even theoretically possible, the Aget Smith paradox exists.

And all the stuff about the limits of how Agents can interact with things doesn't mean anything at all because they can launder their existence through an air gap and then it's back to buttons being pushed - same as any human hacker pressing the same buttons.

---

It is not conceptually workable. All your tirades on the subject are just obfuscation. All your base are belong to us. Us in this case is 12 - or even two - aztechnology crawlers with a Pilot Rating of 6. Caps on how many login attempts can be made don't fix the problem. Limitations on direct agency effects don't fix the problem. So long as equipment on a shelf can make a series of attempts to crack a system which are in aggregate more likely to succeed than a single character with massive BP expenditure in Matrix Know How, the matrix specialist archetype is dead.

And despite weasel words like "The problem of that method is that due to the difficulty for an independant agent to exploit a node (see opening post), there's a good probability of failure." - the rules don't back up your assertions. You may have convinced your players to not try to break the game - but you haven't made the game not be broken.

-Frank

[Blade]

Actually this is also covered, but if you won't read (or understand, or accept , or whatever your problem is) it, I won't lose my time explaining things to you.

[FrankTrollman]

Forcing people to purchase fake sins for extra commlinks does not do what you think it does. And since all your rebuttals are just "Nuh-uh!" and "Why don't you read!" then I can't say that I am terribly sorry that you are giving up on this conversation. We aren't really having a conversation. I'm pointing out structural flaws and you're pretending they don't exist and not explaining your position in the slightest.

-Frank

[bjorn]

[Blade]

Ok, if insist:

1. Independant agents are just like Matrix nukes. It's hard to get one, it's hard to build one yourself and it's highly dangerous to do either. That's why there are as many rules covering independant agents as there are rules covering nuclear weapons.

2. Using a drone to control a persona is asking an agent to control a persona. So it's exactly as having an independant agent. So it'll be blocked by the security protocols of the Matrix. I don't explain what they are, because if I knew how to check if a user is an advanced agent or a human, I wouldn't be writing this but selling the ultimate Captcha solution. Anyway, what's important is that there are security features in the Matrix that prevent agents from accessing the Matrix as personas, and it will also apply to drones accessing the matrix because it's exactly the same thing.

3.

[FrankTrollman]

[Blade]