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> Genetech Doctor, Things can be done with Genetech
WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 06:03 PM
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Ok here is a Doctor who has the skills and the shops needed to do some self improvements.

Due to he is building his own geneware availability limits do not count, and costs are halved. The half costs for building your own, is in RAW, the no available limits is a rule that has been discussed with several DM's.

This character has two qualities, 1-Genecrafted which gives a 20 cost reduction in any Genecrafted items, and 2-Genetic Heritage which gives another 20 reduction in costs.

Costs of Genetech items is reduced by 40 % for the Genecrafted quality and Genetic Heritage and 50 % for building his down Genetech, as per the discussions here on this,,the actual costs is 30 % of the costs in the Augmentation, ie it is 20% + 10 %+50% = 90% cost reduction ie 10% of costs.

The Genetech work took place in "PreGame" so the time it took for all the work to be done is a discussion not for this thread. The back story on the character will incorporate the time it took.

Some of the Bioware items were done using Genetech, Augmentation page 93 under Animal Features "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (page 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."

To me the Symbionts did not fall into the bioware items that could be done using Genetech.

While he was "tanked" he used the VR of the various shops to perform the work/adjustment/care needed, Augmentation page 125, Remote Medical Operations "In the wireless world, virtually all medical equipment is capable of being remotely operated......Remote operations through a medical shop (even a mobile medical shop) are performed much more easily, and do not suffer the -2 penalty. Further more these kinds of equipment are intended to be used in VR mode, and Biotech skills are considered Vehicle skills for the purpose of the control rig cyberware when used through a medical shop or medical facility."

Yes he can work on medical things, and has some ability to work in VR/Matrix, yes he will not be the Nova hot hacker/decker but he was not designed to be one.

Rule 1. No Discussion of the Time it would take for creation or implantation? of Genetech items, in this thread.
Rule 2. No Discussion of additional items/things needed for the care etc, this is pregame, not in game.
Rule 3. No Discussion of limits/obstacles etc that in Your Game you would put into place to keep this character from being created.

Race: Human
Character Name: Herb Marcos
Street Name: Doktor

Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 2
Intuition 3
Logic 6 (8 )
Willpower 3
Edge 3
Initiative 6(7)
Initiative Pass 2
Essence 2.3

Skills
Medicine 6 (Genetics)
Cybertechnology 4 (Bioware)
Computer 3
Data Search 3
Hacking 3
Dodge 4
Perception 4
Cybercombat 2
First Aid 4 (Combat Wounds)
Pistols 2 (Semi Automatics)
Automatics 2
Software 1

Knowledge
Medicine 4 (6)
Genetics 4 (6)
Bioware 4 (6)
Nanoware 4 (6)
Cyberware 4 (6)
Ork Underground 4 (6)
Ork Underground Gangs 4 (6)
Ork Underground Politics 4 (6)

Languages
English N
Or’Zet 4 (6)

Contacts
(Fixer) 3/3
Biomedical Fixer 5/5

Genecrafted
Genetic Heritage

SINer (Criminal)
Sensitive Neural Structure
Sensitive System
Allergy Mild, Uncommon

Genetic Optimization Logic
Reprint
Genewipe
EPE PuSHeD
EPE Reakt
EPE Sych
EPE Qualia
Transgenic Alteration-Animal Features Cat (tail, ears, fur)
Clean Metabolism
Skin Pigmentation
Nictitating Membranes
Tactile Sensitivity
Cerebral Booster 2
Mnemonic Enhancer 2
Synaptic Booster 1
Cat's Eyes
Sensitive Skin

Cybertechnology Shop
Medical Shop
Genetics Shop

Note removed the Type O quality but added Genetic Heritage, also changed essence level.
Edit removed Reception Enhancer 3, EchoLocation, Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3, Hearing Enhancement, Vocal Range Extender and Symbiotes 3.

Cerebral Booster 2, Mnemonic Enhancer 2 and Synaptic Booster 1 have been installed by someone other than the Doktor nor were they "grown" by him.

Changed the stats and essence to reflect the neurowares changes.
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Buster
post Sep 2 2007, 06:51 PM
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You need a medical facility to construct bioware from components (p. 126), I would think genetech needs a medical facility too. It's still only 200k though, still a good plan.
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James McMurray
post Sep 2 2007, 07:00 PM
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What exactly is it you're wanting us to discuss? Are you looking for a pat on the back, mechanical problems that don't fall under your three rules, or what?
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 08:00 PM
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@Buster the RAW does not say that. Geneware is not technically bioware.

Augmentation Under Gene Therapy page 129 "...if not performed in a proper clinical environment (e.g. hospital with genetic capabilities, or elite private or shadow clinics)"

From the description of making and installing bioware, you are creating a bioware item then force growing it in a artificial environment.

Under Geneware, you perform a diagnoses, then perform the gene therapy, then the individual is "tanked" for the duration of the treatment. Basically the patient is growing the geneware item inside them self.

That is why I included a genetics shop to craft/research the therapy.

Question is what types of medical facilities have a "healing tank" like the one mentioned above? To me most medical facilities would and so would a medical shop. To me it is a 2070 version of an Intensive Care Unit etc.

@James McMurray things like the above that I am having with Buster. :) Changes to the set of skills? or suggestions for improvements to the set of skills, etc.
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Draconis
post Sep 2 2007, 08:24 PM
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Catboys! Uh it must be a dark future if people are still called Herb. ;)
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de4dmeta1
post Sep 2 2007, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
Due to he is building his own geneware availability limits do not count, and costs are halved. The half costs for building your own, is in RAW, the no available limits is a rule that has been discussed with several DM's.

...

Rule 1. No Discussion of the Time it would take for creation or implantation? of Genetech items, in this thread.
Rule 2. No Discussion of additional items/things needed for the care etc, this is pregame, not in game.
Rule 3. No Discussion of limits/obstacles etc that in Your Game you would put into place to keep this character from being created.

First things first, the above quotes, to me at least, break this entire idea. You are here proposing a character built, in part, on a GM-fiat,but for some reason you don't want people to discuss that?

Secondly, I have never gamed with a GM who would allow a character to build their own items pre-game and get that oh-so-essential 50%. If one were able to do that, as fast as you can spit people will be trying to claim all sorts of Street Value adjustments to prices pre-game to save themselves precious build points and nuyen. Just opens the door to far too much player abuse of the system as a whole.

As for the character - if he is so capable of crafting and administering all these genetreatments, why is he even shadowrunning? The guy could be making a mint working in a shadow clinic, with much less threat to his personal health.

Above all else, the most glaring problem is Herr Doktor's reason for running the shadows. Right now, with those skillsets, he should be patching up and splicing runners in a shadow clinic, not doing it in his basement so he can go catch some bullets later.
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 09:02 PM
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@de4dmeta1

The rules for building your own gear, has been in the RAW for several iterations of the Shadowrun rules.

Just like how many players know that the smartgun camera in there smartgun installed on the weapon, can be upgraded with things like Low Light etc. It is in the current RAW.

As for why he is a shadow runner, again that is in the back story. Yes he could but look at his SINer(criminal), also why has he changed his appearance totally?

He could be shadow runner due to his extreme choices in gene therapies.

Same reason could be applied to a similar skilled hacker,, he could make a mint working for the corporations etc.

The reason the rules are posted, is because I have seen similar things posted and it becomes too many postings on one of the three rules or all of them.

Each GM gets to make the call on what is or is not included IG. But if the GM rules against what is allowed as per RAW he had better be able to explain why, like Knasser has explained why TM's are not in his campaigns. Not picking on you Knasser just using you as a good example of the reasons why some GM's do not allow everything in RAW.

Some GM's and players were not familiar with the rule of building your own gear etc.

As for the RAW on medical care, he can still practice medicine(genetics) via VR.
:D So who says he is not making a mint, along with shadow running. :D
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Draconis
post Sep 2 2007, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (de4dmeta1)
As for the character - if he is so capable of crafting and administering all these genetreatments, why is he even shadowrunning? The guy could be making a mint working in a shadow clinic, with much less threat to his personal health.

They mocked his research, now he's going to show them? We'll see who's laughing then?
:D
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 09:18 PM
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@Droconis

So close so very close. :D Transhumans Rule!!!! :D
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laughingowl
post Sep 2 2007, 10:43 PM
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Also as a side note:

The build repair rules do NOT allow you to design inventions.

You will have to ask your gm, the 'cost' for the blueprints for all of the Genetech you are wanting to do to yourself...

Also personally I would have to say during the 'hospitilization' time of the treatment time, the 'patient' isn't going to be doing anything, not only are the 'tanked' to me they would be more then likely drugged / etc, to block pain and keep the brain from doing anything. It would be a complete 'comatose' state.


Also as mentioned Gentech is NOT bioware... it's essence loss may be treated as essence loss from bioware, but that is a different statement. Qualitys or Flaws that effect bioware would NOT effect genetech.
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Fortune
post Sep 2 2007, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
This character has two qualities, 1-Genecrafted which gives a 20 cost reduction in any Genecrafted items, and 2-Type O System which reduces essence costs for bioware by half, and Genetech items use the essence rules of bioware, so the essence costs for Genetech are halved also.

The Type-O Quality only applies to normal, non-cultured, off-the-shelf bioware. Not cultured stuff or genetech.
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 11:05 PM
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@Fortune

Where does it say that? reference please.

Genetech is not cultured either.
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Fortune
post Sep 2 2007, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (Augmentation pg. 20)
Type O System
Cost: 30 BP
Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world have completely non-allergenic “type O? cells, meaning that they can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of rejection. While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same). Their bodies are also filled with universally transplantable organs, so maybe they shouldn’t brag too much about this talent.
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 11:27 PM
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@fortune please look at this
QUOTE

All of the Bioware items were done using Genetech, Augmentation page 93 under Animal Features "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (page 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."


He has genetech not bioware. None of the genetic therapies he has are cultured. I have yet to have seen anywhere that Type O does not affect the essence loss via genetech. If you have please reference it.
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Fortune
post Sep 2 2007, 11:35 PM
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Genetech is not Bioware! Genetech merely uses the Bioware mechanics to determine Essense loss, but nowhere does it state that Genetech is actually Bioware. Especially not off-the-rack, basic bioware.
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 2 2007, 11:46 PM
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@Fortune
Cultured bioware a sample is taken from the host subject, then force grown to more correctly match the neural patterns etc, from a posting by Synner in the Augmentation Q&A topic.

Genetech is not cultured, nor force grown. Once the process is started, the host's own body grows the new genetech items.

Genetech does not come in grades or cultured states. Ip so facto it is not cultured nor delta grade. So the part about Type O not applying to cultured bioware is correct, the genetech is neither cultured or delta grade.

No where does it state that Genetech does not benefit from Type O either.

So until someone of Authority (Synner, etc) over this says either way, it is a mute issue.
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Fortune
post Sep 2 2007, 11:46 PM
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Maybe you need to review what Type-O organs are. They are the base, non-allergenic organ stock that is used for transplants.

QUOTE (Augmentation pg 15)
> What’s type Owen?
> 2XL
> It’s what most generic bioware is. Every metahuman cell has a number of protein markers that mark it as a foreign body in another metahuman. People with type A blood recognize the B proteins as foreign and vice versa. Some people have less of these proteins; people with type O blood have neither A nor B proteins. Owen Whiting of Alpena, Michigan has none of these proteins. His cells are completely non-allergenic, and have been being cultivated and modified since 2034. He’s the Henrietta Lacks of the 21st century.
> Type Owen organs are often abbreviated to just O, and have been cultivated to such an extent over the last 30 years that viable O type tissue worldwide outmasses Mr. Whiting by tens of thousands of times. To those familiar with them, the O-type organs have a distinctive look and taste.
> Hannibelle


QUOTE (Augmentation pg 54)
Type O Transplants
Biotech R&D and bioware transplants were in the early stages of commercial exploitation in the 2030s when Owen Whiting was discovered. Whiting was a rarity, an individual who expressed none of the epitopes (protein and sugar structures on the outer membrane of organs) that can cause immunoreactions. His genotype was viable for 96 percent of transplants to any metatype, with a rejection factor of less than 5 percent. Identified and tested by Shiawase, Whiting’s tissues became the basis for the type O (for Owen) implant and first-generation bioware modifications.
Nowadays, medical providers maintain farms of full type O forced-growth clones and vats of type O organs on hand, to be utilized as needed. This is also how many bioware providers grow and stock their augmented organs for mass distribution to bodyshops and surgical centers.
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Fortune
post Sep 2 2007, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
So until someone of Authority (Synner, etc) over this says either way, it is a mute issue.

It isn't a moot issue. The rules are quite clear.
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laughingowl
post Sep 2 2007, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
@fortune please look at this
QUOTE

All of the Bioware items were done using Genetech, Augmentation page 93 under Animal Features "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (page 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."


He has genetech not bioware. None of the genetic therapies he has are cultured. I have yet to have seen anywhere that Type O does not affect the essence loss via genetech. If you have please reference it.

@wearzmanyskins

re-read the one Fortune posted:

"Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same)."

THE ONLY EFFECT Type O system has is that off the shelf generic bioware counts as delta grade (essence cut in half).

If it isnt off the shelf generic bioware, Type O has no effect.

Also as mentioned before.. Genetech is NOT bioware... Qualities that effect Bioware do NOT effect genetech...
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de4dmeta1
post Sep 2 2007, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
@de4dmeta1

The rules for building your own gear, has been in the RAW for several iterations of the Shadowrun rules.

Just like how many players know that the smartgun camera in there smartgun installed on the weapon, can be upgraded with things like Low Light etc. It is in the current RAW.

I am well aware of the rules for building your own gear. The point of contention is that, as far as I can tell, they're all meant for use in-game - show me where it says that you can make all the relavent skill checks during character creation, and I'll consider the matter settled.
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Fortune
post Sep 2 2007, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Augmentation pg. 87)
All geneware Essence costs are calculated as part of the character’s total Essence loss from bioware.


This does not state that Genetech is the same as Bioware. Merely that the Essense loss from genetech comes from the Bioware side of the calculation (as nanotech reduces cyber Essence loss)

As an aside, this is an unwarranted complication brought about by splitting the Essence hole calculation.
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Draconis
post Sep 3 2007, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE (de4dmeta1)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 2 2007, 04:02 PM)
@de4dmeta1

The rules for building your own gear, has been in the RAW for several iterations of the Shadowrun rules.

Just like how many players know that the smartgun camera in there smartgun installed on the weapon, can be upgraded with things like Low Light etc. It is in the current RAW.

I am well aware of the rules for building your own gear. The point of contention is that, as far as I can tell, they're all meant for use in-game - show me where it says that you can make all the relavent skill checks during character creation, and I'll consider the matter settled.

That's an old trick loading up on "difficult" items at character creation. Stuff that requires extra time, money, or rolls to aquire.

I must admit that I'm guilty of that. I've always loaded up on APDS at character creation because I don't feel the need to roleplay the acquisition later. I've always had later access to the stuff I just prefer to get it all up front.

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Fortune
post Sep 3 2007, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (Draconis @ Sep 3 2007, 10:02 AM)
That's an old trick loading up on "difficult" items at character creation. Stuff that requires extra time, money, or rolls to aquire.

I must admit that I'm guilty of that. I've always loaded up on APDS at character creation because I don't feel the need to roleplay the acquisition later. I've always had later access to the stuff I just prefer to get it all up front.

Sure, but your character is not actually making (using the Armorer Skill) the APDS pre-game. It is usually assumed that anything requiring actual rolls (like construction, etc) be done after chargen ends and the game actually starts.
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de4dmeta1
post Sep 3 2007, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE (Draconis)
QUOTE (de4dmeta1 @ Sep 2 2007, 11:53 PM)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 2 2007, 04:02 PM)
@de4dmeta1

The rules for building your own gear, has been in the RAW for several iterations of the Shadowrun rules.

Just like how many players know that the smartgun camera in there smartgun installed on the weapon, can be upgraded with things like Low Light etc. It is in the current RAW.

I am well aware of the rules for building your own gear. The point of contention is that, as far as I can tell, they're all meant for use in-game - show me where it says that you can make all the relavent skill checks during character creation, and I'll consider the matter settled.

That's an old trick loading up on "difficult" items at character creation. Stuff that requires extra time, money, or rolls to aquire.

I must admit that I'm guilty of that. I've always loaded up on APDS at character creation because I don't feel the need to roleplay the acquisition later. I've always had later access to the stuff I just prefer to get it all up front.

I'm still not sure where it says you can make build-repair tests during character creation, though. All I've read from SR4 (p.125 specifically) makes it seem as though it's only an available option once the character is finished and in-game.
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 3 2007, 12:27 AM
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Even paying full essence costs the character is still viable, he has essence left, and then he only pays 10% of cost due to taking Genetic Heritage.

From this thread
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...entation&st=150
QUOTE
Synner replying to Dancer
QUOTE (Dancer @ Jul 29 2007, 03:49 PM)
Is Genetech considered a type of bioware for the purposes of essence loss, or is essence loss from bioware and nanoware never halved?

Genetech adds to the bioware essence loss (sub)total, nanocybernetics add to the cyberware essence loss (sub)total. These are added up and the lower (sub)total halved as normal when calculating total essence loss.


Note what Synner replied to Dancers question above.

From this part of the thread
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...entation&st=250
QUOTE

QUOTE

Can the Positive Qualities Biocompatability (bioware) and Type 0 System be combined and stacked, or are they incompatible different versions of the same condition ? Same question for the Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage Qualities.


The Qualities were designed to work within the 35 point Quality limit and hence stacking was reduced (I suggest that even if you don't enforce the 35 point limit, you consider limiting stacking on the basis that both are rare genetic conditions). Though they aren't incompatible ruleswise, their basic concepts fluff-wise aren't entirely compatible either. Type O is a rare genetic condition, while Biocompatibility is a different (actually 2 different) genetic conditions which involves many of the same genesequences expressing in different ways.

QUOTE

Can the Positive Qualities Biocompatability (either version) and Type 0 System be bought post-character creation, as the effect of genetic treatments, or they have to be inborn qualities ? I expect that since genetic treatments can mess with the genome so radically as to make the DNA signature unrecognizable, they could make the subject cells' non-allergenic, or the body more accepting of implants.


They are considered innate qualities. Neither biotech nor genetech has been able to reproduce them through treatments - yet. Masking a DNA signature involves something a lot different than massive rewrites to your DNA (instead it makes changes to common polymorphic trait sequences) - something akin to changing only some of the reference points computers use to match your fingerprint.
QUOTE

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM)
So now we have different meanings of deltaware for basic and cultured bioware. Basic Bioware becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry and genome. Integration has nothing to do with it (or else the type O wouldn't work at all, since it's all about biochem matching). But cultured bioware determines grade based on integration, not biochem.

Think of it this way:

All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware.

Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential.
QUOTE

Some confusion here. "Cultured bioware" designation is not interchangeable with "neural bioware" (though the vast majority of it is in fact neural augmentation). What distinguishes cultured bioware isn't that it is neural ware, but that it requires the bioware be grown from the user's own cells to even work (note that this doesn't necessarily mean it is perfectly DNA-matched as some have suggested, because the alterations made to the cell culture to grow into the bioware template will alter the DNA to some extent).

Note what it takes to cultured bioware.

From the above quotes, genetech is not a sample of tissue force grown outside the host. So It can not be cultured.

Is Genetech off the rack ware? It does not come in grades.

Genetech inserts itself into the hosts body, resulting in the bioware essence lost.

Despite all of the above quotes Synner never directly answers the question the question of does genetech gain anything from Type O quality.

Does Biocompatability-cyberware reduce the essence loss from cybernanoware?





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