Ok here is a Doctor who has the skills and the shops needed to do some self improvements.

Due to he is building his own geneware availability limits do not count, and costs are halved. The half costs for building your own, is in RAW, the no available limits is a rule that has been discussed with several DM's.

This character has two qualities, 1-Genecrafted which gives a 20 cost reduction in any Genecrafted items, and 2-Genetic Heritage which gives another 20 reduction in costs.

Costs of Genetech items is reduced by 40 % for the Genecrafted quality and Genetic Heritage and 50 % for building his down Genetech, as per the discussions here on this,,the actual costs is 30 % of the costs in the Augmentation, ie it is 20% + 10 %+50% = 90% cost reduction ie 10% of costs.

The Genetech work took place in "PreGame" so the time it took for all the work to be done is a discussion not for this thread. The back story on the character will incorporate the time it took.

Some of the Bioware items were done using Genetech, Augmentation page 93 under Animal Features "Most of the functional changes available through biotech (page 61) are also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."

To me the Symbionts did not fall into the bioware items that could be done using Genetech.

While he was "tanked" he used the VR of the various shops to perform the work/adjustment/care needed, Augmentation page 125, Remote Medical Operations "In the wireless world, virtually all medical equipment is capable of being remotely operated......Remote operations through a medical shop (even a mobile medical shop) are performed much more easily, and do not suffer the -2 penalty. Further more these kinds of equipment are intended to be used in VR mode, and Biotech skills are considered Vehicle skills for the purpose of the control rig cyberware when used through a medical shop or medical facility."

Yes he can work on medical things, and has some ability to work in VR/Matrix, yes he will not be the Nova hot hacker/decker but he was not designed to be one.

Rule 1. No Discussion of the Time it would take for creation or implantation? of Genetech items, in this thread.
Rule 2. No Discussion of additional items/things needed for the care etc, this is pregame, not in game.
Rule 3. No Discussion of limits/obstacles etc that in Your Game you would put into place to keep this character from being created.

Race: Human
Character Name: Herb Marcos
Street Name: Doktor

Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 2
Intuition 3
Logic 6 (8 )
Willpower 3
Edge 3
Initiative 6(7)
Initiative Pass 2
Essence 2.3

Skills
Medicine 6 (Genetics)
Cybertechnology 4 (Bioware)
Computer 3
Data Search 3
Hacking 3
Dodge 4
Perception 4
Cybercombat 2
First Aid 4 (Combat Wounds)
Pistols 2 (Semi Automatics)
Automatics 2
Software 1

Knowledge
Medicine 4 (6)
Genetics 4 (6)
Bioware 4 (6)
Nanoware 4 (6)
Cyberware 4 (6)
Ork Underground 4 (6)
Ork Underground Gangs 4 (6)
Ork Underground Politics 4 (6)

Languages
English N
Or’Zet 4 (6)

Contacts
(Fixer) 3/3
Biomedical Fixer 5/5

Genecrafted
Genetic Heritage

SINer (Criminal)
Sensitive Neural Structure
Sensitive System
Allergy Mild, Uncommon

Genetic Optimization Logic
Reprint
Genewipe
EPE PuSHeD
EPE Reakt
EPE Sych
EPE Qualia
Transgenic Alteration-Animal Features Cat (tail, ears, fur)
Clean Metabolism
Skin Pigmentation
Nictitating Membranes
Tactile Sensitivity
Cerebral Booster 2
Mnemonic Enhancer 2
Synaptic Booster 1
Cat's Eyes
Sensitive Skin

Cybertechnology Shop
Medical Shop
Genetics Shop

Note removed the Type O quality but added Genetic Heritage, also changed essence level.
Edit removed Reception Enhancer 3, EchoLocation, Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3, Hearing Enhancement, Vocal Range Extender and Symbiotes 3.

Cerebral Booster 2, Mnemonic Enhancer 2 and Synaptic Booster 1 have been installed by someone other than the Doktor nor were they "grown" by him.

Changed the stats and essence to reflect the neurowares changes.

You need a medical facility to construct bioware from components (p. 126), I would think genetech needs a medical facility too. It's still only 200k though, still a good plan.

What exactly is it you're wanting us to discuss? Are you looking for a pat on the back, mechanical problems that don't fall under your three rules, or what?

@Buster the RAW does not say that. Geneware is not technically bioware.

Augmentation Under Gene Therapy page 129 "...if not performed in a proper clinical environment (e.g. hospital with genetic capabilities, or elite private or shadow clinics)"

From the description of making and installing bioware, you are creating a bioware item then force growing it in a artificial environment.

Under Geneware, you perform a diagnoses, then perform the gene therapy, then the individual is "tanked" for the duration of the treatment. Basically the patient is growing the geneware item inside them self.

That is why I included a genetics shop to craft/research the therapy.

Question is what types of medical facilities have a "healing tank" like the one mentioned above? To me most medical facilities would and so would a medical shop. To me it is a 2070 version of an Intensive Care Unit etc.

@James McMurray things like the above that I am having with Buster. Changes to the set of skills? or suggestions for improvements to the set of skills, etc.

Catboys! Uh it must be a dark future if people are still called Herb.

@de4dmeta1

The rules for building your own gear, has been in the RAW for several iterations of the Shadowrun rules.

Just like how many players know that the smartgun camera in there smartgun installed on the weapon, can be upgraded with things like Low Light etc. It is in the current RAW.

As for why he is a shadow runner, again that is in the back story. Yes he could but look at his SINer(criminal), also why has he changed his appearance totally?

He could be shadow runner due to his extreme choices in gene therapies.

Same reason could be applied to a similar skilled hacker,, he could make a mint working for the corporations etc.

The reason the rules are posted, is because I have seen similar things posted and it becomes too many postings on one of the three rules or all of them.

Each GM gets to make the call on what is or is not included IG. But if the GM rules against what is allowed as per RAW he had better be able to explain why, like Knasser has explained why TM's are not in his campaigns. Not picking on you Knasser just using you as a good example of the reasons why some GM's do not allow everything in RAW.

Some GM's and players were not familiar with the rule of building your own gear etc.

As for the RAW on medical care, he can still practice medicine(genetics) via VR.
So who says he is not making a mint, along with shadow running.

@Droconis

So close so very close. Transhumans Rule!!!!

Also as a side note:

The build repair rules do NOT allow you to design inventions.

You will have to ask your gm, the 'cost' for the blueprints for all of the Genetech you are wanting to do to yourself...

Also personally I would have to say during the 'hospitilization' time of the treatment time, the 'patient' isn't going to be doing anything, not only are the 'tanked' to me they would be more then likely drugged / etc, to block pain and keep the brain from doing anything. It would be a complete 'comatose' state.


Also as mentioned Gentech is NOT bioware... it's essence loss may be treated as essence loss from bioware, but that is a different statement. Qualitys or Flaws that effect bioware would NOT effect genetech.

@Fortune

Where does it say that? reference please.

Genetech is not cultured either.

@fortune please look at this

Genetech is not Bioware! Genetech merely uses the Bioware mechanics to determine Essense loss, but nowhere does it state that Genetech is actually Bioware. Especially not off-the-rack, basic bioware.

@Fortune
Cultured bioware a sample is taken from the host subject, then force grown to more correctly match the neural patterns etc, from a posting by Synner in the Augmentation Q&A topic.

Genetech is not cultured, nor force grown. Once the process is started, the host's own body grows the new genetech items.

Genetech does not come in grades or cultured states. Ip so facto it is not cultured nor delta grade. So the part about Type O not applying to cultured bioware is correct, the genetech is neither cultured or delta grade.

No where does it state that Genetech does not benefit from Type O either.

So until someone of Authority (Synner, etc) over this says either way, it is a mute issue.

Maybe you need to review what Type-O organs are. They are the base, non-allergenic organ stock that is used for transplants.

Even paying full essence costs the character is still viable, he has essence left, and then he only pays 10% of cost due to taking Genetic Heritage.

From this thread
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...entation&st=150

At no time does Synner state that Genetech is the same as Bioware. Nor does he state that any Bioware-related Qualities are also applicable to Genetech.

Type O organs are just that ... organs! Not geneware. Just plain, non-allergenic organs.

@De4dmeta1
The build and repair on page 125 and the ones on 240, do not say if such can or can not be used in pregame. Again nothing is black and white.

But allowing it does let some characters to spend the nuyen and get some gear that most can not yet get.

Ultimately the costs even at half, would quickly get to the 250k limit on most beginning characters.

I can see a character not be able to build a vehicle, even though 3rd ed had rules for even that,,but it required a Vehicle Facility under those rules.

Majority of the GM's I have played with or just watched, have allowed building your own with some restrictions. Simple items electronics gear, commlinks, sensors, are among the more acceptable items built, but again it depends on the back story too.

*Bows to Fortune's discussion and points* Good points.

Note Type O quality removed and Genetic Heritage added. Essence changed to reflect the lack of Type O essence savings.

But due to the increased savings on building your own, he has lots more nuyen but little essence left to use much more.

Looks like skills will be getting a boost or more skills.

WMS

would you allow someone to code all their own programs and not charge them anything at all?

there's a lot of hackers out there with software skill and hardware skill, and i have a hard time believing you'd ever find a GM willing to allow them to start with a rating 6 commlink (ie straight 6's, since availability is apparently not a concern) at half price and all programs for free just because they happen to have a few points in skills?

do you let people with mechanic skills start off with half-priced vehicles?

this is just silly. for 20 build points in skills that are already useful, you're letting someone double the effectiveness of their resources? starting resources represent what you start with. a hacker who, in his backstory, coded their own programs, does not start with 90k credits worth of programs as a result of having a decent software skill. why should anyone else?

if you pay the resource cost for parts/supplies for something, then you start off with the parts/supplies for something, not with the completed item. you could then, after chargen, begin using those parts/supplies to build the item you want.

still, 40% off is not an insignificant price reduction.

@Jaid
If one of my players sets up his/her character with the skills needed and the shop to build it, I will let them, provided they have some back story to some degree.

I have created a decker who would able to build his own hardware, ie response etc. One point to be clear on, that decker was only copying current designs. The same decker was able to get/crack most if not all the software he needed.

If a player wished to get the most out of his nuyen I will not rain on that parade.

As for vehicles I would default to the 3 Ed on that, to build vehicles at half cost, would take a vehicle facility not a shop. A facility will take up much more room, and not be portable at all.

As for the GM's ask some here that run games here, you might be surprised.

@LaughingOwl
Augmentation page 129
"While geneware is almost universal by definition, gene therapy requires that the transfection vectors used be tailored to the subject and adapted to take into account the existence of metagenes, prior implants, prior therapies, and other factors"

The Docktor is taking "off the shelf" genetic therapies and applying them to himself. He is not creating anything "new". He is not designing anything but taking what is already out there for use.

Again Genetech is not cultured by the definitions given for cultured bioware.

Correction by the rules for Genetech, any gene therapy only requires a Diagnostic scan of the subject. and by the above quote.

As for the rest of what you have said Rule 3.

WMS

I like the old rule I and some of my friends stand by:
"We are GMs. We know cheese when we see it. No."

@Fortune
Synner Quote
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...entation&st=425

I wasn't commenting on your build, I was commenting on YOU. You've been deliberatly misreading certain rules and exploting the fact that certain things are not specifically prohibited to try and say this is legal.
Just because it's technically allowable by the rules means you should enterain any use of it.

Ultimately, everything you are doing is a total GM fiat to begin with. I feel no reason to abide by rules you've set when the entire thread is a total sham. You're not a mod, and you can politely request that we not do things, but in this case I wanted to point a couple of things out to other readers who may not be as familiar with the game as others, and who may be given ideas by this post.

1) There are no rules for building anything at character creation rather than purchasing it. None of the sample characters with B/R skills have recieved any discount for items they could have built, implying it cannot legally be done under the rules.
2) Your assumption that an 'elite black clinic' or 'hospital with genetech equipment' is just rank silliness. A hospital is a facility, not a shop. A local clinic is a shop. A an elite clinic is a facility as well, given the fact that it's 'elite'. That is to say 'expensive'. Not a shop that's a fraction of the cost.
3) The fact that your build suggests someone is able to genetically augment their own brain and yet remain conscious and lucid while their brain is rebuilding itself is just plain ridiculous.
4) The time taken to perform these operations would logically necessitate that most of his physical skills and attributes would atrophy. Because, you know, he's been doing nothing but self-gene operations for more than a year.
5) How can you justify not paying higher lifestyle costs to upkeep the machinery or nutrients in your self-tank operation? Who's refilling the nutrient solutions? Who's repairing things as they threaten to wear out?
6) As others have stated, where are you getting the designs for your cerebral booster, et cetera, that you're implementing? Or are you designing those from scratch too?

Just because there are no rules expressly forbidding something doesn't mean it's legal. I could make a character with Mentor Spirit: The Hulk and have it give me +20 dice to combat skills for the berserker disadvantage, because page 180 of Street Magic says the current spirits are only a 'guideline', but that doesn't make the idea any less totally retarded.

On a basic level, I am appaled that this character has been given any serious consideration.

@Adarael

1. The example of sample characters is not a very good, due the numerous errors and omissions in those samples. But we can but ask, if such is allowed or not allowed or left up to each GM.
2. That is a direct quote from Augmentation, take it up with those that wrote/approved it.
3. I have placed a question regarding part of this in a posting in the Augmentation Q&A, but I believe the answer will follow what Fortune has stated that such neural ware is not usable under the Transgenetic Alterations-Animal. So the neural ware will more than likely be installed in the more traditional means.
4. Such is not covered under any of the rules for any character, ie a character spends 3 months in the care of hospital, muscle atrophy etc is not covered there either. It can only take one week for muscle atrophy to occur, in RL.
5. Again minutia not incorporated into the game system. How does a character live before he joins the game,,,does he pay for lifestyle until he does join a game?
6. Cerebral Booster is standard design, it just needs to grown from a sample from the host. Everything is of a standard design. Nothing experimental at all.

You must have seen Frank's running adept then?

Changes made to the character as per the above.

WMS

Generally speaking, brain surgery is conducted on conscious and lucid individuals. This is necessary because patient feedback is the best way to determine if you are doing it right.

But are the people who are being operated on also the one's doing the operation? Yeah, you might be lucid and conscious but it doesn't mean you have the mental stability to perform brain surgery on yourself. What the character could have done however is get an expert system/agent in there, tell it exactly what to do, in what order and then let it work on him while he's dreaming.