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> Astral Ward confusions
Veggiesama
post Sep 4 2007, 07:18 AM
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I think I've got most of it figured out, but for the life of me, there's a couple bits that I simply don't understand...

1) Do astral wards affect the regular mundane character at *all* (like alerting the creator when Joe Street Sam bumbles through the invisible wall)? I'm guessing no.

2) If not, what happens to the awakened magician/adept in the party if he bumbles through the astral ward while in a meat-body?
----- Does nothing happen, and he doesn't even realize there's a problem until he tries to cast a spell or project while within the ward?
----- Does he collide into an invisible wall, while buddies continue to walk ahead?
----- same as above, but he is possibly knocked unconscious too (if he fails the roll)?

3) I'm confused at whether astral wards are wall-like or fishtank-like. Do they occupy a perimeter (as mentioned when it's compared to a regular barrier) or a cubic volume (as mentioned in its creation rules)?

4) If you "break through" the barrier but only score one net hit, what prevents you from just recasting your lost sustained spells or reactivating your deactivated foci, once you're on the other side? I can see why getting your spirits killed off is a problem, but the other two seem relatively painless, unless I'm missing something.

5) After you've broken through a barrier, do targets on the inside (like the creator) still receive bonuses to resisting your spells?

I'll ask some more if I can think of them, but that should cover most of my problems...
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Ranneko
post Sep 4 2007, 07:32 AM
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1) No, no effect at all

2)Awakened people don't notice either unless astrally perceiving or if they have spells/active wards on themselves. Then they would be stopped and there would be combat between the spells and the wards IIRC.

3) They occupy the perimeter.

4) Nothing, but going through a ward like that will alert the creator. Plus, more chances to take drain.

5) You only get penalties from casting across a ward, so no.
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Buster
post Sep 4 2007, 12:51 PM
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1) Nope.
2) Nothing if the intruder is just awakened. If the intruder is dual natured (i.e. a spirit, ghoul, or astrally perceiving), then yes he will be stopped cold. If he is in a high-speed elevator, he could be knocked out. Street Magic explains all the ins and outs.

As to the questions 3-5, think of a Ward as a polarized aspected background count.

It is polarized/aspected in that it only affects magic that is coming from outside the ward into the ward. It does not affect magic that you cast from inside the ward (to within the ward or to the outside the ward).

It is a background count in that it is a volume, not a wall, therefore protects everything inside the ward including objects and against ritual magic. If you want a wall of protection, you'll need the Mana Barrier spell.

Once an intruder breaks into a ward, the intruder is also protected by the ward. But remember that it does not protect against magic cast within the ward. So if the big boss is hiding inside the ward, and you break into the ward, he can still cast spells at you, but you would be protected from his henchmen that are outside the ward.

Help this helps.
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Veggiesama
post Sep 4 2007, 08:24 PM
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Okay, so far so good (except for that thing about "polarized aspected background count", whatever that means)...

6) If a magician simply walks through to the other side in physical form and starts casting spells, filling up his foci, and projecting into the astral (without having actually "broken through" or "pressed through" the ward with dice rolls, as written in the book), does anything strange happen?
----- If not, assuming he had no sustained spells or foci or whatever, would he even realize he passed through an astral ward at all? What about the creator? Seems like "bumbling through" is a really easy way to stealthily pass a ward without alerting anyone, especially if you can just recast everything on the other side...
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Ranneko
post Sep 4 2007, 08:55 PM
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Yep, that is pretty much the standard strategy employed to deal with an unguarded, but warded area.
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Veggiesama
post Sep 4 2007, 09:55 PM
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Okay, that makes sense then. Thanks for your help, guys.
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Draconis
post Sep 4 2007, 11:23 PM
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Just remember you have to know there's a ward there before you turn all your sustained spells and foci off.
I have the distinct tatical disadvantage that I'm lit up like a christmas tree with foci but I can't ever see wards, no astral projection/perception. Luckily I stay with allies that can otherwise I'd hit wards like a bird hitting a glass window. :D
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laughingowl
post Sep 5 2007, 12:33 AM
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I guess thats the BIG question....

If you have foci / spells / etc up...


You are walking down a hallway and encounter a ward:

a) You make a check to 'break through' (since your spells, foci, etc cant go through)
b) the ward creator is notified...


personally I think B ocurrs before A.


As soon as something 'bumps' into the ward, the owner is alterted...

As the person walking, you dont realize anything until you feel the tug on your belt (foci) or your sustained spell flutter...

At this point I WOULD allow the one walking through to drop sustained spells, and/or deactivate the foci... however, while that would mean they don't need to 'breakthrough' they could just walk through... the owner would still be alterted that something 'bumped' into his ward.


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Fortune
post Sep 5 2007, 12:56 AM
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I disagree. I think the owner would not be alerted unless his Ward was actually penetrated.
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Redjack
post Sep 5 2007, 01:48 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
I disagree. I think the owner would not be alerted unless his Ward was actually penetrated.

So if I understand your position it is that
QUOTE (BBB @ pg186)
and may "press through" a barrier


is inconsistent syntax with

QUOTE (BBB @ pg185)
Any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator.


Correct?
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Fortune
post Sep 5 2007, 01:52 AM
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Not really. An 'attack' or 'attempt to break through' is a different thing to just brushing up against the Ward, at least in my opinion.

The distinction won't come up too often though, so it doesn't really matter. Most times a Ward is contacted, one of the two options above is applicable. :)
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laughingowl
post Sep 5 2007, 02:00 AM
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The catch is Fortune..


You don't know the ward is there UNTIL you attempt to break through it (by dragging your foci through) ... At which point the owner is aware...

You have no knowledge of ward being there, until something cant pass through (unless you are astrally percieving)...

Even the best wired reflexes in the world are can not instaneously counter momentum

Technically 'by the rules' you would need to roll to see if the Foci is forced deactivated... (since it is being forced through the ward... sure its your legs , not an elevator but the conditions are the same, the astral object has been physically forced through the ward).

However, I would allow since dropping spells / deactivating foci are a 'free action' the owner to immediatly drop them.

The main reason for this would be two fold.

1) Polite: Like checking your guns are the door, instead of forcing the foci/ward through you deactivate it.

2) Less noticable. While the 'attempt' to break through would be noted, it would also be just that an 'attempt' to break through, which might gather a response... If you force the foci/spell through, the owner will no the ward was breached, which CERTAINLY will get a response.
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Redjack
post Sep 5 2007, 02:04 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl)
However, I would allow since dropping spells / deactivating foci are a 'free action' the owner to immediately drop them.

The issue then being an initiate with a quickened spell.... Like oh, let's say... Increased Reflexes...
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Fortune
post Sep 5 2007, 02:04 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl)
You don't know the ward is there UNTIL you attempt to break through it (by dragging your foci through) ... At which point the owner is aware...

You have no knowledge of ward being there, until something cant pass through (unless you are astrally percieving)...

Yeah, I pretty much understand that. I can envision a fair number of circumstances whereby a person's Aura (or that of his Foci) might brush up against a Ward without actually being forced through (or penetrating) the Ward.

But as I said above, it wouldn't come up often enough in the actual game to make a difference.
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laughingowl
post Sep 5 2007, 03:31 AM
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QUOTE (Redjack)
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 4 2007, 09:00 PM)
However, I would allow  since dropping spells / deactivating foci are a 'free action'  the owner to immediately drop them.

The issue then being an initiate with a quickened spell.... Like oh, let's say... Increased Reflexes...

Quckened spell is easy...

They can't be 'dropped' so the spell is forced through the barrier.

If a initiate (I.E. somebody with magic rating) they could attempt to break through themselves and if they do 'buffer' the spell. (techncially strict reading of rules, would say the spell was forced through the barrier... and IT would have to make the check, but I would allow an awakened character to react in time to make the test themself (basically flaring their aura and pushing it through before the ward could collapse the spell/foci).

Now if the spell was quickened on say, The street sammy.... then the spell is forced through the ward and it either wins, or is dirupted....

One consideration if the 'sammy' is leading the team... any spells on him is likely to get broken...

Now if they mage that cast spell is there... He can shelter the spell on somebody else IF he is aware of the ward.... (though I wouldnt allow him to reactively protect the spell... if he himself wasnt stumbling through the ward...)

The mage himself would have to cross the ward.... at which point he can protect net hits 'things' bound to him (sustain spells, foci, spirits, etc)... but until the mage forces his way through the ward, if somebody else passes through the ward, the spell is 'fored through the ward' per the rules...
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laughingowl
post Sep 5 2007, 03:41 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Yeah, I pretty much understand that. I can envision a fair number of circumstances whereby a person's Aura (or that of his Foci) might brush up against a Ward without actually being forced through (or penetrating) the Ward.

But as I said above, it wouldn't come up often enough in the actual game to make a difference.

The first part I can't...



'Astraly' the ward is visible so, if pure astral, you will see the ward, and either cross it or dont..

However when one is travelling physically, one (normally) can't see a ward.... however there is a one to one mapping physical to astral...

So if you physically move across the ward... you have crossed thew ward. Nothing in the rules say ward give/flex/bend...

If you cross line X... (in a given 2 dimensional slice) then you hve crossed the ward...

If you have crossed the ward, then you (or the item) forced its way through or went inactive.



Now I would consider allowing an intentional attempt to force may way through (zero dice rolled), to be allowed as a 'knock on the door'... something you know cant win (even against a force one ward), but a polife 'knock' (if you are aware of the ward).


As to not making a difference, happens fairly regularly in my games...

Wards are cheap... Even if 'broken through' the arent destroyed... so a low ward rating on 'private areas' works very well. (especially if nobody is supposed to be magical)....

Most of my tailsmongers and like will also often put up a low (1 or 2) ward over the door way into their store... (along with a sign warning)....

Why.... they want to know if somebody is coming in hot...

Sure anybody could break through it.. but they tailsmonger will know...

Sure it is a minor hassle, but few people NEED to have spells active... if they do, they can always press the intercomm and ask the tailsmonger to come let them in...


In my games (anyways) wards are fairly common... and it is more of ettiqute (rather then direct effect on a run), on how they are dealt with..

Sure on the run.. if there is a ward. smash and go.. (unless you have masking and want to sneak way through)....

But when meeting with the Yaks... what you do when you hit the ward protecting their backroom (with or without warning) tells the Yaks what you think of them.... and tells them how to deal with you.
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Fortune
post Sep 5 2007, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl)
Now if they mage that cast spell is there... He can shelter the spell on somebody else IF he is aware of the ward.... (though I wouldnt allow him to reactively protect the spell... if he himself wasnt stumbling through the ward...)

The mage himself would have to cross the ward.... at which point he can protect net hits 'things' bound to him (sustain spells, foci, spirits, etc)... but until the mage forces his way through the ward, if somebody else passes through the ward, the spell is 'fored through the ward' per the rules...

Isn't this a function of the Extended Masking Metamagic?
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Fortune
post Sep 5 2007, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl)
As to not making a difference, happens fairly regularly in my games...

Obviously not, seeing that you don't seem to be understanding what I am saying.

Example:

Joe Bob the mage is standing next to a warded car and casts Physical Mask (or any other sustained Spell). He then leans on the car, but doesn't try to enter it in any way. His Spell is now 'brushing up against' the Ward, but it is not 'attacking' or 'forcing its way through' the Ward, so the Ward's owner would not be alerted until Joe Bob actually 'crosses' the Ward.
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Dashifen
post Sep 5 2007, 04:17 AM
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I'm with Fortune on that one. I've had situations arise in my games where an astral thingy of some kind became adjacent to a ward but not intersecting in anyway. I ruled that the creator of the ward didn't know (yet).
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Jaid
post Sep 5 2007, 04:49 AM
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iirc, aren't wards supposed to have some sort of physical representation?

so wouldn't it be possible to spot this physical representation? (a regular perception test, with hits limited by arcana skill or whatever it is? similar to how the forgery rules work, perhaps?

so it might be possible to spot a ward before passing through it... suppose it's up to the individual GM, of course =P
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laughingowl
post Sep 5 2007, 06:40 AM
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Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inide' the vehicle.

So unless the wards wall extended outside the vehicle, the mage pushed hard enough to bend the body (which might break the ward by itself), or stuck their hand in the window not an issue.


but lets ignore that if for some reason the ward extend into the 'air' for some reason.. lets take even the example of a outside lodge (or other free standing dome in the middle of an open park)

To a mage (not astral percieving) the ward is nothing ... If he goes walking across the field there is nothing there...

Now one of two things happens..

1) the bone rattle on his belt, crosses into the 'warded area' in which case they must make a test to see what happens...

2) The bone rattle (or other foci) never crosses into warded space and no checks are made...

The simple point is UNTIL you try to break through there is no way to know a ward is there... so if you try to walk move through a ward, your only choice is to drop (if generous) active spells, foci... or 'break through' (if generous again), or the spell/foci is forced through...

Very Very few people are going to 'ward' property/space outside of their control/property for the simple reason a million people would F with it just because the could....

The vehicle example: The 'ward' would be one on the iside skin of the vehicle (or if real generous in the middle)...

If you 'brush' hard enough to bend metal yeah you are making an attempt to violate the inside of the vehicle...

If sit on the bumper though the ward in the vehicle has no problem.... (the cars security system might)...

likewise touching the outside of the door to a warded room aint gonna do jack...

Now opening the door and 'stepping through' is... but I would never put the ward on the 'outside' of the wall...

I would normally put the ward on the inside of the wall... or if really paranoid (and GM allowed it to be refreshed this way (grey area) I would build it like the reflective layer of a cd in the 'middle' of the wall.

An outer wall to protect the ward 'markers' a layer which had the ward markers .. and then an inner wall.


But the thing is ward dont bend/flex/move... wards dont offer physical resitance...

So if an astrally active item, crosses point X... it shuts down, or the ward is breached...
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kzt
post Sep 5 2007, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl)
Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inside' the vehicle.


From what I understand to be a warded (mobile) vehicle the ward can't extend outside the vehicle. It could be on the inside of the vehicle or on the outside, but it can't extend into the open air.

The other interesting point that isn't obvious from the rules is that the ward on the vehicle (even if it is on the outside) doesn't actually protect the vehicle in any way from direct combat spells like powerball, as vehicles don't get a resistance roll. Veggiesama should point this out to his players the next time they choose to use their armored van as a bunker. ;)

{I think this is silly, but that's what the rules say.}
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Fortune
post Sep 5 2007, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl)
Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inide' the vehicle.

You assume that. I don't believe that is automatically the case. Is there some rule that states that you cannot put a Ward on the outside of the vehicle (thereby helping to defend the vehicle against magic)?
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Veggiesama
post Sep 5 2007, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (kzt)
The other interesting point that isn't obvious from the rules is that the ward on the vehicle (even if it is on the outside) doesn't actually protect the vehicle in any way from direct combat spells like powerball, as vehicles don't get a resistance roll. Veggiesama should point this out to his players the next time they choose to use their armored van as a bunker. ;)

{I think this is silly, but that's what the rules say.}

Probably a good point, but I have another goofy house rule going for magic and vehicles. Basically, if (and only if) you're rigging a vehicle, you can choose to either "take 4 automatic hits" (i.e., the threshold of 4 for complex objects) on the resistance test, or you can roll the vehicle's Body for the test.

Usually the 4 hits works in your favor, but you're rigging a battleship with 50 Body (or if you just want to throw Edge on your dice), you don't have to worry about the goofy mage in a row-boat sinking your entire ship with just a couple powerbolts. Anyway, off-topic, sorry.
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FriendoftheDork
post Sep 6 2007, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 5 2007, 04:40 PM)
Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inide' the vehicle.

You assume that. I don't believe that is automatically the case. Is there some rule that states that you cannot put a Ward on the outside of the vehicle (thereby helping to defend the vehicle against magic)?

A wards needs to be anchored to physical objects... like the walls of the car or an apartment.

You could concievably place four stones around the card and ward the area, but then anyone kicking the stones away would be able to disrupt it. Then again, since wards cannot be moved from it's physical component to another location what's the point? Unless you don't ward an astral car-thief taking your stuff ;)
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