I think I've got most of it figured out, but for the life of me, there's a couple bits that I simply don't understand...
1) Do astral wards affect the regular mundane character at *all* (like alerting the creator when Joe Street Sam bumbles through the invisible wall)? I'm guessing no.
2) If not, what happens to the awakened magician/adept in the party if he bumbles through the astral ward while in a meat-body?
----- Does nothing happen, and he doesn't even realize there's a problem until he tries to cast a spell or project while within the ward?
----- Does he collide into an invisible wall, while buddies continue to walk ahead?
----- same as above, but he is possibly knocked unconscious too (if he fails the roll)?
3) I'm confused at whether astral wards are wall-like or fishtank-like. Do they occupy a perimeter (as mentioned when it's compared to a regular barrier) or a cubic volume (as mentioned in its creation rules)?
4) If you "break through" the barrier but only score one net hit, what prevents you from just recasting your lost sustained spells or reactivating your deactivated foci, once you're on the other side? I can see why getting your spirits killed off is a problem, but the other two seem relatively painless, unless I'm missing something.
5) After you've broken through a barrier, do targets on the inside (like the creator) still receive bonuses to resisting your spells?
I'll ask some more if I can think of them, but that should cover most of my problems...
Full Version: Astral Ward confusions
1) No, no effect at all
2)Awakened people don't notice either unless astrally perceiving or if they have spells/active wards on themselves. Then they would be stopped and there would be combat between the spells and the wards IIRC.
3) They occupy the perimeter.
4) Nothing, but going through a ward like that will alert the creator. Plus, more chances to take drain.
5) You only get penalties from casting across a ward, so no.
2)Awakened people don't notice either unless astrally perceiving or if they have spells/active wards on themselves. Then they would be stopped and there would be combat between the spells and the wards IIRC.
3) They occupy the perimeter.
4) Nothing, but going through a ward like that will alert the creator. Plus, more chances to take drain.
5) You only get penalties from casting across a ward, so no.
1) Nope.
2) Nothing if the intruder is just awakened. If the intruder is dual natured (i.e. a spirit, ghoul, or astrally perceiving), then yes he will be stopped cold. If he is in a high-speed elevator, he could be knocked out. Street Magic explains all the ins and outs.
As to the questions 3-5, think of a Ward as a polarized aspected background count.
It is polarized/aspected in that it only affects magic that is coming from outside the ward into the ward. It does not affect magic that you cast from inside the ward (to within the ward or to the outside the ward).
It is a background count in that it is a volume, not a wall, therefore protects everything inside the ward including objects and against ritual magic. If you want a wall of protection, you'll need the Mana Barrier spell.
Once an intruder breaks into a ward, the intruder is also protected by the ward. But remember that it does not protect against magic cast within the ward. So if the big boss is hiding inside the ward, and you break into the ward, he can still cast spells at you, but you would be protected from his henchmen that are outside the ward.
Help this helps.
2) Nothing if the intruder is just awakened. If the intruder is dual natured (i.e. a spirit, ghoul, or astrally perceiving), then yes he will be stopped cold. If he is in a high-speed elevator, he could be knocked out. Street Magic explains all the ins and outs.
As to the questions 3-5, think of a Ward as a polarized aspected background count.
It is polarized/aspected in that it only affects magic that is coming from outside the ward into the ward. It does not affect magic that you cast from inside the ward (to within the ward or to the outside the ward).
It is a background count in that it is a volume, not a wall, therefore protects everything inside the ward including objects and against ritual magic. If you want a wall of protection, you'll need the Mana Barrier spell.
Once an intruder breaks into a ward, the intruder is also protected by the ward. But remember that it does not protect against magic cast within the ward. So if the big boss is hiding inside the ward, and you break into the ward, he can still cast spells at you, but you would be protected from his henchmen that are outside the ward.
Help this helps.
Okay, so far so good (except for that thing about "polarized aspected background count", whatever that means)...
6) If a magician simply walks through to the other side in physical form and starts casting spells, filling up his foci, and projecting into the astral (without having actually "broken through" or "pressed through" the ward with dice rolls, as written in the book), does anything strange happen?
----- If not, assuming he had no sustained spells or foci or whatever, would he even realize he passed through an astral ward at all? What about the creator? Seems like "bumbling through" is a really easy way to stealthily pass a ward without alerting anyone, especially if you can just recast everything on the other side...
6) If a magician simply walks through to the other side in physical form and starts casting spells, filling up his foci, and projecting into the astral (without having actually "broken through" or "pressed through" the ward with dice rolls, as written in the book), does anything strange happen?
----- If not, assuming he had no sustained spells or foci or whatever, would he even realize he passed through an astral ward at all? What about the creator? Seems like "bumbling through" is a really easy way to stealthily pass a ward without alerting anyone, especially if you can just recast everything on the other side...
Yep, that is pretty much the standard strategy employed to deal with an unguarded, but warded area.
Okay, that makes sense then. Thanks for your help, guys.
Just remember you have to know there's a ward there before you turn all your sustained spells and foci off.
I have the distinct tatical disadvantage that I'm lit up like a christmas tree with foci but I can't ever see wards, no astral projection/perception. Luckily I stay with allies that can otherwise I'd hit wards like a bird hitting a glass window.
I have the distinct tatical disadvantage that I'm lit up like a christmas tree with foci but I can't ever see wards, no astral projection/perception. Luckily I stay with allies that can otherwise I'd hit wards like a bird hitting a glass window.
I guess thats the BIG question....
If you have foci / spells / etc up...
You are walking down a hallway and encounter a ward:
a) You make a check to 'break through' (since your spells, foci, etc cant go through)
b) the ward creator is notified...
personally I think B ocurrs before A.
As soon as something 'bumps' into the ward, the owner is alterted...
As the person walking, you dont realize anything until you feel the tug on your belt (foci) or your sustained spell flutter...
At this point I WOULD allow the one walking through to drop sustained spells, and/or deactivate the foci... however, while that would mean they don't need to 'breakthrough' they could just walk through... the owner would still be alterted that something 'bumped' into his ward.
If you have foci / spells / etc up...
You are walking down a hallway and encounter a ward:
a) You make a check to 'break through' (since your spells, foci, etc cant go through)
b) the ward creator is notified...
personally I think B ocurrs before A.
As soon as something 'bumps' into the ward, the owner is alterted...
As the person walking, you dont realize anything until you feel the tug on your belt (foci) or your sustained spell flutter...
At this point I WOULD allow the one walking through to drop sustained spells, and/or deactivate the foci... however, while that would mean they don't need to 'breakthrough' they could just walk through... the owner would still be alterted that something 'bumped' into his ward.
I disagree. I think the owner would not be alerted unless his Ward was actually penetrated.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I disagree. I think the owner would not be alerted unless his Ward was actually penetrated. |
So if I understand your position it is that
| QUOTE (BBB @ pg186) |
| and may "press through" a barrier |
is inconsistent syntax with
| QUOTE (BBB @ pg185) |
| Any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator. |
Correct?
Not really. An 'attack' or 'attempt to break through' is a different thing to just brushing up against the Ward, at least in my opinion.
The distinction won't come up too often though, so it doesn't really matter. Most times a Ward is contacted, one of the two options above is applicable.
The distinction won't come up too often though, so it doesn't really matter. Most times a Ward is contacted, one of the two options above is applicable.
The catch is Fortune..
You don't know the ward is there UNTIL you attempt to break through it (by dragging your foci through) ... At which point the owner is aware...
You have no knowledge of ward being there, until something cant pass through (unless you are astrally percieving)...
Even the best wired reflexes in the world are can not instaneously counter momentum
Technically 'by the rules' you would need to roll to see if the Foci is forced deactivated... (since it is being forced through the ward... sure its your legs , not an elevator but the conditions are the same, the astral object has been physically forced through the ward).
However, I would allow since dropping spells / deactivating foci are a 'free action' the owner to immediatly drop them.
The main reason for this would be two fold.
1) Polite: Like checking your guns are the door, instead of forcing the foci/ward through you deactivate it.
2) Less noticable. While the 'attempt' to break through would be noted, it would also be just that an 'attempt' to break through, which might gather a response... If you force the foci/spell through, the owner will no the ward was breached, which CERTAINLY will get a response.
You don't know the ward is there UNTIL you attempt to break through it (by dragging your foci through) ... At which point the owner is aware...
You have no knowledge of ward being there, until something cant pass through (unless you are astrally percieving)...
Even the best wired reflexes in the world are can not instaneously counter momentum
Technically 'by the rules' you would need to roll to see if the Foci is forced deactivated... (since it is being forced through the ward... sure its your legs , not an elevator but the conditions are the same, the astral object has been physically forced through the ward).
However, I would allow since dropping spells / deactivating foci are a 'free action' the owner to immediatly drop them.
The main reason for this would be two fold.
1) Polite: Like checking your guns are the door, instead of forcing the foci/ward through you deactivate it.
2) Less noticable. While the 'attempt' to break through would be noted, it would also be just that an 'attempt' to break through, which might gather a response... If you force the foci/spell through, the owner will no the ward was breached, which CERTAINLY will get a response.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| However, I would allow since dropping spells / deactivating foci are a 'free action' the owner to immediately drop them. |
The issue then being an initiate with a quickened spell.... Like oh, let's say... Increased Reflexes...
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| You don't know the ward is there UNTIL you attempt to break through it (by dragging your foci through) ... At which point the owner is aware... You have no knowledge of ward being there, until something cant pass through (unless you are astrally percieving)... |
Yeah, I pretty much understand that. I can envision a fair number of circumstances whereby a person's Aura (or that of his Foci) might brush up against a Ward without actually being forced through (or penetrating) the Ward.
But as I said above, it wouldn't come up often enough in the actual game to make a difference.
| QUOTE (Redjack) | ||
The issue then being an initiate with a quickened spell.... Like oh, let's say... Increased Reflexes... |
Quckened spell is easy...
They can't be 'dropped' so the spell is forced through the barrier.
If a initiate (I.E. somebody with magic rating) they could attempt to break through themselves and if they do 'buffer' the spell. (techncially strict reading of rules, would say the spell was forced through the barrier... and IT would have to make the check, but I would allow an awakened character to react in time to make the test themself (basically flaring their aura and pushing it through before the ward could collapse the spell/foci).
Now if the spell was quickened on say, The street sammy.... then the spell is forced through the ward and it either wins, or is dirupted....
One consideration if the 'sammy' is leading the team... any spells on him is likely to get broken...
Now if they mage that cast spell is there... He can shelter the spell on somebody else IF he is aware of the ward.... (though I wouldnt allow him to reactively protect the spell... if he himself wasnt stumbling through the ward...)
The mage himself would have to cross the ward.... at which point he can protect net hits 'things' bound to him (sustain spells, foci, spirits, etc)... but until the mage forces his way through the ward, if somebody else passes through the ward, the spell is 'fored through the ward' per the rules...
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Yeah, I pretty much understand that. I can envision a fair number of circumstances whereby a person's Aura (or that of his Foci) might brush up against a Ward without actually being forced through (or penetrating) the Ward. But as I said above, it wouldn't come up often enough in the actual game to make a difference. |
The first part I can't...
'Astraly' the ward is visible so, if pure astral, you will see the ward, and either cross it or dont..
However when one is travelling physically, one (normally) can't see a ward.... however there is a one to one mapping physical to astral...
So if you physically move across the ward... you have crossed thew ward. Nothing in the rules say ward give/flex/bend...
If you cross line X... (in a given 2 dimensional slice) then you hve crossed the ward...
If you have crossed the ward, then you (or the item) forced its way through or went inactive.
Now I would consider allowing an intentional attempt to force may way through (zero dice rolled), to be allowed as a 'knock on the door'... something you know cant win (even against a force one ward), but a polife 'knock' (if you are aware of the ward).
As to not making a difference, happens fairly regularly in my games...
Wards are cheap... Even if 'broken through' the arent destroyed... so a low ward rating on 'private areas' works very well. (especially if nobody is supposed to be magical)....
Most of my tailsmongers and like will also often put up a low (1 or 2) ward over the door way into their store... (along with a sign warning)....
Why.... they want to know if somebody is coming in hot...
Sure anybody could break through it.. but they tailsmonger will know...
Sure it is a minor hassle, but few people NEED to have spells active... if they do, they can always press the intercomm and ask the tailsmonger to come let them in...
In my games (anyways) wards are fairly common... and it is more of ettiqute (rather then direct effect on a run), on how they are dealt with..
Sure on the run.. if there is a ward. smash and go.. (unless you have masking and want to sneak way through)....
But when meeting with the Yaks... what you do when you hit the ward protecting their backroom (with or without warning) tells the Yaks what you think of them.... and tells them how to deal with you.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Now if they mage that cast spell is there... He can shelter the spell on somebody else IF he is aware of the ward.... (though I wouldnt allow him to reactively protect the spell... if he himself wasnt stumbling through the ward...) The mage himself would have to cross the ward.... at which point he can protect net hits 'things' bound to him (sustain spells, foci, spirits, etc)... but until the mage forces his way through the ward, if somebody else passes through the ward, the spell is 'fored through the ward' per the rules... |
Isn't this a function of the Extended Masking Metamagic?
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| As to not making a difference, happens fairly regularly in my games... |
Obviously not, seeing that you don't seem to be understanding what I am saying.
Example:
Joe Bob the mage is standing next to a warded car and casts Physical Mask (or any other sustained Spell). He then leans on the car, but doesn't try to enter it in any way. His Spell is now 'brushing up against' the Ward, but it is not 'attacking' or 'forcing its way through' the Ward, so the Ward's owner would not be alerted until Joe Bob actually 'crosses' the Ward.
I'm with Fortune on that one. I've had situations arise in my games where an astral thingy of some kind became adjacent to a ward but not intersecting in anyway. I ruled that the creator of the ward didn't know (yet).
iirc, aren't wards supposed to have some sort of physical representation?
so wouldn't it be possible to spot this physical representation? (a regular perception test, with hits limited by arcana skill or whatever it is? similar to how the forgery rules work, perhaps?
so it might be possible to spot a ward before passing through it... suppose it's up to the individual GM, of course =P
so wouldn't it be possible to spot this physical representation? (a regular perception test, with hits limited by arcana skill or whatever it is? similar to how the forgery rules work, perhaps?
so it might be possible to spot a ward before passing through it... suppose it's up to the individual GM, of course =P
Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inide' the vehicle.
So unless the wards wall extended outside the vehicle, the mage pushed hard enough to bend the body (which might break the ward by itself), or stuck their hand in the window not an issue.
but lets ignore that if for some reason the ward extend into the 'air' for some reason.. lets take even the example of a outside lodge (or other free standing dome in the middle of an open park)
To a mage (not astral percieving) the ward is nothing ... If he goes walking across the field there is nothing there...
Now one of two things happens..
1) the bone rattle on his belt, crosses into the 'warded area' in which case they must make a test to see what happens...
2) The bone rattle (or other foci) never crosses into warded space and no checks are made...
The simple point is UNTIL you try to break through there is no way to know a ward is there... so if you try to walk move through a ward, your only choice is to drop (if generous) active spells, foci... or 'break through' (if generous again), or the spell/foci is forced through...
Very Very few people are going to 'ward' property/space outside of their control/property for the simple reason a million people would F with it just because the could....
The vehicle example: The 'ward' would be one on the iside skin of the vehicle (or if real generous in the middle)...
If you 'brush' hard enough to bend metal yeah you are making an attempt to violate the inside of the vehicle...
If sit on the bumper though the ward in the vehicle has no problem.... (the cars security system might)...
likewise touching the outside of the door to a warded room aint gonna do jack...
Now opening the door and 'stepping through' is... but I would never put the ward on the 'outside' of the wall...
I would normally put the ward on the inside of the wall... or if really paranoid (and GM allowed it to be refreshed this way (grey area) I would build it like the reflective layer of a cd in the 'middle' of the wall.
An outer wall to protect the ward 'markers' a layer which had the ward markers .. and then an inner wall.
But the thing is ward dont bend/flex/move... wards dont offer physical resitance...
So if an astrally active item, crosses point X... it shuts down, or the ward is breached...
So unless the wards wall extended outside the vehicle, the mage pushed hard enough to bend the body (which might break the ward by itself), or stuck their hand in the window not an issue.
but lets ignore that if for some reason the ward extend into the 'air' for some reason.. lets take even the example of a outside lodge (or other free standing dome in the middle of an open park)
To a mage (not astral percieving) the ward is nothing ... If he goes walking across the field there is nothing there...
Now one of two things happens..
1) the bone rattle on his belt, crosses into the 'warded area' in which case they must make a test to see what happens...
2) The bone rattle (or other foci) never crosses into warded space and no checks are made...
The simple point is UNTIL you try to break through there is no way to know a ward is there... so if you try to walk move through a ward, your only choice is to drop (if generous) active spells, foci... or 'break through' (if generous again), or the spell/foci is forced through...
Very Very few people are going to 'ward' property/space outside of their control/property for the simple reason a million people would F with it just because the could....
The vehicle example: The 'ward' would be one on the iside skin of the vehicle (or if real generous in the middle)...
If you 'brush' hard enough to bend metal yeah you are making an attempt to violate the inside of the vehicle...
If sit on the bumper though the ward in the vehicle has no problem.... (the cars security system might)...
likewise touching the outside of the door to a warded room aint gonna do jack...
Now opening the door and 'stepping through' is... but I would never put the ward on the 'outside' of the wall...
I would normally put the ward on the inside of the wall... or if really paranoid (and GM allowed it to be refreshed this way (grey area) I would build it like the reflective layer of a cd in the 'middle' of the wall.
An outer wall to protect the ward 'markers' a layer which had the ward markers .. and then an inner wall.
But the thing is ward dont bend/flex/move... wards dont offer physical resitance...
So if an astrally active item, crosses point X... it shuts down, or the ward is breached...
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inside' the vehicle. |
From what I understand to be a warded (mobile) vehicle the ward can't extend outside the vehicle. It could be on the inside of the vehicle or on the outside, but it can't extend into the open air.
The other interesting point that isn't obvious from the rules is that the ward on the vehicle (even if it is on the outside) doesn't actually protect the vehicle in any way from direct combat spells like powerball, as vehicles don't get a resistance roll. Veggiesama should point this out to his players the next time they choose to use their armored van as a bunker.
{I think this is silly, but that's what the rules say.}
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Well in your example the ward would almost HAVE to be 'inide' the vehicle. |
You assume that. I don't believe that is automatically the case. Is there some rule that states that you cannot put a Ward on the outside of the vehicle (thereby helping to defend the vehicle against magic)?
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| The other interesting point that isn't obvious from the rules is that the ward on the vehicle (even if it is on the outside) doesn't actually protect the vehicle in any way from direct combat spells like powerball, as vehicles don't get a resistance roll. Veggiesama should point this out to his players the next time they choose to use their armored van as a bunker. {I think this is silly, but that's what the rules say.} |
Probably a good point, but I have another goofy house rule going for magic and vehicles. Basically, if (and only if) you're rigging a vehicle, you can choose to either "take 4 automatic hits" (i.e., the threshold of 4 for complex objects) on the resistance test, or you can roll the vehicle's Body for the test.
Usually the 4 hits works in your favor, but you're rigging a battleship with 50 Body (or if you just want to throw Edge on your dice), you don't have to worry about the goofy mage in a row-boat sinking your entire ship with just a couple powerbolts. Anyway, off-topic, sorry.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
You assume that. I don't believe that is automatically the case. Is there some rule that states that you cannot put a Ward on the outside of the vehicle (thereby helping to defend the vehicle against magic)? |
A wards needs to be anchored to physical objects... like the walls of the car or an apartment.
You could concievably place four stones around the card and ward the area, but then anyone kicking the stones away would be able to disrupt it. Then again, since wards cannot be moved from it's physical component to another location what's the point? Unless you don't ward an astral car-thief taking your stuff
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| A wards needs to be anchored to physical objects... like the walls of the car or an apartment. |
You're right. Where does it state that it is the inside walls of the car that must be the anchor?
As to ward (or counterspelling) Rob had anwered (sorry I don't have the direct quote anymore lost my emails)..
That in both cases the ward (or counterspelling) could protect an 'object' effectively removing sucess.
So while RAW might not directly give wards / counterspelling the ability to protect objects an offical answer has said it should.
The biggest problem here would be, some kid scratches the paint on your car and ward go bye bye. furthermoore with out a lot of work (that also would generaly 'break' the ward.. it would be almost impossible to get the whole vehicle 'in the ward'...
Most doors 'bow' out some... if the 'door' is not a marker, then the ward could extend only as far as the cross-beam etc.... which means the door is NOT inside the ward... which means the car can be targeted from outside the ward with no protection (if somebody can see the door)..
If the door IS a marker for the ward... the instant you open the door you are changing the relation of the markers with each other and the ward is broken....
Since spell targeting the 'vehicle' target it all, if a single piece of the vehicle extends past the ward, the 'vehicle' isn't really protected by the ward...
So ward generally are to protect the contents of a container, not the container itself.
That being said as I also mentioned the dome ward inthe middle of a field, it is inmaterial to the problem in question.
Either:
1) the foci/spell/etc never crossed the 'ward' in which case nobody knows anything..
2) the foci/spell/etc was forced cross the ward boundary... in which case it forces it was through the ward, or goes inactive...
doesnt matter if the ward boundary is inside, outside, in the middle of a vehicle... Wards (from the rules) are binary..
You have crossed the ward boudnary, or you havent crossed the ward boundary .. Only things with pure astral bodies have the third option of 'you tried to cross the ward boundary and failed.
That in both cases the ward (or counterspelling) could protect an 'object' effectively removing sucess.
So while RAW might not directly give wards / counterspelling the ability to protect objects an offical answer has said it should.
The biggest problem here would be, some kid scratches the paint on your car and ward go bye bye. furthermoore with out a lot of work (that also would generaly 'break' the ward.. it would be almost impossible to get the whole vehicle 'in the ward'...
Most doors 'bow' out some... if the 'door' is not a marker, then the ward could extend only as far as the cross-beam etc.... which means the door is NOT inside the ward... which means the car can be targeted from outside the ward with no protection (if somebody can see the door)..
If the door IS a marker for the ward... the instant you open the door you are changing the relation of the markers with each other and the ward is broken....
Since spell targeting the 'vehicle' target it all, if a single piece of the vehicle extends past the ward, the 'vehicle' isn't really protected by the ward...
So ward generally are to protect the contents of a container, not the container itself.
That being said as I also mentioned the dome ward inthe middle of a field, it is inmaterial to the problem in question.
Either:
1) the foci/spell/etc never crossed the 'ward' in which case nobody knows anything..
2) the foci/spell/etc was forced cross the ward boundary... in which case it forces it was through the ward, or goes inactive...
doesnt matter if the ward boundary is inside, outside, in the middle of a vehicle... Wards (from the rules) are binary..
You have crossed the ward boudnary, or you havent crossed the ward boundary .. Only things with pure astral bodies have the third option of 'you tried to cross the ward boundary and failed.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| If the door IS a marker for the ward... the instant you open the door you are changing the relation of the markers with each other and the ward is broken.... |
Yep, because every time you open the door to a Warded room, the Ward vanishes.
I'm not going to go on with this, as it really was an immaterial point in the first place.
Fortune:
IF the door is a 'ward' marker then YES opening the door breaks the ward..
If the WALL the door is in is a ward marker, then no problem... with opening the door...
HOWEVER, in this case the doornob (if nothing else) is almsot certain extending past the 'wall' and is such is 'outside' the ward..
I could perfectly fine combat spell the door with no protection from the ward, to destroy the door...
Although this would have no effect on the ward...
To protect the 'object' the object must be totally within the ward. (or some part of it could be targeted without passing through the ward... in which cast the ward isn't protecting the object)
So for your car:
Put the 'door posts' for the sides, the top of the car, the floor board of the cars, and the bumpers of the car as your markers.
Anything that is 'above' the roof (antenna, roof rack), below the floorboards (exhuast pipe if ICE), farther to the side then the door posts (most doors, almost all door handles, etc) is not inside the ward and not protected...
Now if you put a ward marker on all the 'farthest out' points, you could enclose the whole car... but there is a good choice several of those ward markers are going to move occasionally, which DOES break the ward...
Wards are ment to protect the CONTENTS of the room (normally) but generally can not protect the ward markers themselves...
Also the other problem if the ward extends OUTSIDE your car...
While the car is likely your property.... and (save on corp lands) privacy, etc laws allow you to protect 'your car'... If the ward (which is invisible) extends OUTSIDE you car... then every single time somebody squeezes betweein your car and the car next to it, and lose the spirit, spell, etc... YOU have damaged them and are liable. (same way people right now have been sued and had to pay, for people being disturbed by car alarms...)...
If your 'ward' kills my spirit / spell while I am walking in public space, you are liable for damages done... Rest assured, there would be a million get riches yuppies that would harass people just for this.... (probably paid by opposing corps....)
You MIGHT have a right to raise a ward to protect your car....
You have NO right to ward off a section of public property (even if only 1 mm outside of your car)...
Heck present laws, it would aruguably be illegal to ward of your car, while it is in public property, until precdent is set... (which I have seen nothing in the rules or fluff, that states, and heck can't even think of an 'offical' warded vehicle anyways).
but ONCE AGAIN this is inmaterial....
EITHER:
1) The 'ward boundary' is crossed physically ... in which the object has to force its way through the ward (or be forced inactive)
or
2) The 'ward boundary' isn't crossed ... in which case nobody knows anything...
There is no PHYSICAL effect of ward so if you move a physical object (that has an astral respresenation too) through a ward...
1) It forces it was through the ward..
2) It is forced from the astral....
For objects there is no 'I try to go through and failed' and got repelled...
Now an 'awakened' entity can try to force its way through (or mask) and might not get through...
But the 'object' cant decide not to go through... if it is carried past a ward.. then it is been forced through and at that point it must force its way through or be shut off...
The 'car' is irrelevant, just the example you picked...
As mentioned before doesnt matter if it is a socer field, that the goal posts are ward markers...
If a physical object with an astral presence if move past the ward boundary .. then it must force its way through, or it is shut off...
IF the door is a 'ward' marker then YES opening the door breaks the ward..
If the WALL the door is in is a ward marker, then no problem... with opening the door...
HOWEVER, in this case the doornob (if nothing else) is almsot certain extending past the 'wall' and is such is 'outside' the ward..
I could perfectly fine combat spell the door with no protection from the ward, to destroy the door...
Although this would have no effect on the ward...
To protect the 'object' the object must be totally within the ward. (or some part of it could be targeted without passing through the ward... in which cast the ward isn't protecting the object)
So for your car:
Put the 'door posts' for the sides, the top of the car, the floor board of the cars, and the bumpers of the car as your markers.
Anything that is 'above' the roof (antenna, roof rack), below the floorboards (exhuast pipe if ICE), farther to the side then the door posts (most doors, almost all door handles, etc) is not inside the ward and not protected...
Now if you put a ward marker on all the 'farthest out' points, you could enclose the whole car... but there is a good choice several of those ward markers are going to move occasionally, which DOES break the ward...
Wards are ment to protect the CONTENTS of the room (normally) but generally can not protect the ward markers themselves...
Also the other problem if the ward extends OUTSIDE your car...
While the car is likely your property.... and (save on corp lands) privacy, etc laws allow you to protect 'your car'... If the ward (which is invisible) extends OUTSIDE you car... then every single time somebody squeezes betweein your car and the car next to it, and lose the spirit, spell, etc... YOU have damaged them and are liable. (same way people right now have been sued and had to pay, for people being disturbed by car alarms...)...
If your 'ward' kills my spirit / spell while I am walking in public space, you are liable for damages done... Rest assured, there would be a million get riches yuppies that would harass people just for this.... (probably paid by opposing corps....)
You MIGHT have a right to raise a ward to protect your car....
You have NO right to ward off a section of public property (even if only 1 mm outside of your car)...
Heck present laws, it would aruguably be illegal to ward of your car, while it is in public property, until precdent is set... (which I have seen nothing in the rules or fluff, that states, and heck can't even think of an 'offical' warded vehicle anyways).
but ONCE AGAIN this is inmaterial....
EITHER:
1) The 'ward boundary' is crossed physically ... in which the object has to force its way through the ward (or be forced inactive)
or
2) The 'ward boundary' isn't crossed ... in which case nobody knows anything...
There is no PHYSICAL effect of ward so if you move a physical object (that has an astral respresenation too) through a ward...
1) It forces it was through the ward..
2) It is forced from the astral....
For objects there is no 'I try to go through and failed' and got repelled...
Now an 'awakened' entity can try to force its way through (or mask) and might not get through...
But the 'object' cant decide not to go through... if it is carried past a ward.. then it is been forced through and at that point it must force its way through or be shut off...
The 'car' is irrelevant, just the example you picked...
As mentioned before doesnt matter if it is a socer field, that the goal posts are ward markers...
If a physical object with an astral presence if move past the ward boundary .. then it must force its way through, or it is shut off...
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| If a physical object with an astral presence if move past the ward boundary .. then it must force its way through, or it is shut off... |
My only comment is that I've never disputed that. Other than that, as I said last post, I'm out.
Walls of an apartment have a thickness. Where within this thickness is the ward located?
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
You're right. Where does it state that it is the inside walls of the car that must be the anchor? |
As I've interpreted it that's up to you.... it can be right inside the walls, within the walls, or right outside the walls... but not in the air outside the walls.
So the ward could be like think oil covering the vehicle from the outside, from the inside, or like a layer of isolation inside the walls of the car or whatever.
Having it outside like you suggest gives the paint the protection of the ward, but makes it visible from the outside (and a warded car would scream something valuable or someone in need of protection inside). On the other hand, having it withing or right inside would only protect the internal parts of the car - which means you could make a whole in it with the powerbolt or something, but it would be invisible to the outside.
Wards are usually employed to prevent astral spies from entering a certain place, looking into it or using astral tracking or Search power against someone inside. Protection from direct spells is not as common in my games at least.
Actually I have to say re-reading, I have had some house rules override RAW...
House-rules we have always had the 'limits' of the ward area had to be marked (the 'outside points'
Although raw the anchor (only needs one) jsut needs to be inside the ward (and the ward must extend 1m on all side of item.
To this does then mean, that a car would almost have to have a ward the extended past the car.. (few cars have a point that could contain a 2m diamter sphere)
Also given that the ward has to be a simple shape.... would make it impossible to have the ward directly follow the 'lines' of the car (unless you car is a perfect box).
So warding a 'car' again becomes very hard....
Also as mentioned I dont see warding 'past' the car from being possible... the first time you pull close to another car.. bang wards overlap something breaks... and one of you is getting serious crap....
2) it would be a legal libality in UCAS/CAS areas... first time a Dual-Natured mage not paying attention walks through the ward (trying to catch the buss while talking with an astral buddy, the -6 die perception of doing oth pretty well explains why he doesnt see it)... He is knocked unconcious by our invislbe ward, extending outside the limits of your property that you MIGHT have a right to ward... rest assured you are getting sued... better hope your corp has better lawyers then his (and doesnt mind bad PR).
You know the rules really don't work IMO...
with the RAW rules (as opposed to our house rules).... The anchor cant be that pentagram scribed on the floor (unless you want the ward, extending to the floor below you, VERY few floors are 1 meter thick....)
Rather the ward is going to have to be something standing in the center of the room (some pillar or something).
Although the FAQ does imply otherwise, it doesnt directly change the rules:
House-rules we have always had the 'limits' of the ward area had to be marked (the 'outside points'
Although raw the anchor (only needs one) jsut needs to be inside the ward (and the ward must extend 1m on all side of item.
To this does then mean, that a car would almost have to have a ward the extended past the car.. (few cars have a point that could contain a 2m diamter sphere)
Also given that the ward has to be a simple shape.... would make it impossible to have the ward directly follow the 'lines' of the car (unless you car is a perfect box).
So warding a 'car' again becomes very hard....
Also as mentioned I dont see warding 'past' the car from being possible... the first time you pull close to another car.. bang wards overlap something breaks... and one of you is getting serious crap....
2) it would be a legal libality in UCAS/CAS areas... first time a Dual-Natured mage not paying attention walks through the ward (trying to catch the buss while talking with an astral buddy, the -6 die perception of doing oth pretty well explains why he doesnt see it)... He is knocked unconcious by our invislbe ward, extending outside the limits of your property that you MIGHT have a right to ward... rest assured you are getting sued... better hope your corp has better lawyers then his (and doesnt mind bad PR).
You know the rules really don't work IMO...
with the RAW rules (as opposed to our house rules).... The anchor cant be that pentagram scribed on the floor (unless you want the ward, extending to the floor below you, VERY few floors are 1 meter thick....)
Rather the ward is going to have to be something standing in the center of the room (some pillar or something).
Although the FAQ does imply otherwise, it doesnt directly change the rules:
| QUOTE |
| But, if you ward a shipping container using the walls of that shipping container as the physical anchor, and the shipping container is shipped across the Pacific Ocean, the ward does not collapse. The entire warded enclosure is moving, so in the relationship between the ward and physical anchor, it hasn't moved at all from its relationship at the ward's creation. |
The 'walls' are anchor... I doubt the ward woudl extend 1m outside the wall, so presumably the 1m rule is more jsut a minimum sphere a 1m radius can be warded.
So RAW: we have to have an anchor somewhere inside the vehicle that a simple geometric shape ward extends from atleast 1m in all directions.
Now the FAQ gives us a little more and implies that the walls of a shipping container could be the anchor (and presumably only the 'inside' is warded... not 1m OUTSIDE the walls (otherwise lord help you if they stack 2 together).
Personally I will stick with our house rule (looks like it may have been FAQ based) and that the boundaries can be warded (to form a simple shape) OR a central point can be warded, but the minum size is 1m radius sphere, and that it must be a simple geomtric shape.
Eitherway, warding must cars seems rather hard..
Now step vans, moving vans, semi-trailers, etc would be nice candidates, but the 1m radius sphere would hurt most vehicles... and personally I dont see how extending wards outside the vechile would work, for something used on 'public' property.
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