 Re-applying toxins |
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 Sep 5 2007, 05:54 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688  |
(bolded for emphasis)
Let's assume you're resisting NeuroStun (10 power, Speed of 1 Combat Turn, and it becomes inert after 1 minute) and you get caught in an enclosed room for the whole minute. Do you only have to resist the NeuroStun once, or do you resist it every Combat Turn until it becomes inert? Seems like the former method wouldn't be quite as effective, but the second method is sure-fire way to kill off everyone in the room (stun overflows to physical). Seems like I just need a little bit more clarification... |
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Sep 5 2007, 08:28 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The last part of your quote pretty much answers your question. The first part is fluff for toxins that are measured in minutes (don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure that's the norm for a lot of the non-combat drugs), while the actual rule states that you go by the toxin's Speed.
And yes, being in a death trap is a bad thing, whether it's due to guns mounted on the ceiling or overdoses of gas. The term "death trap" kind of defines itself. |
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Sep 5 2007, 08:40 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 30-August 07 Member No.: 12,983 |
If the character is aware that he/she is inhaling poisonous gas, call for a roll after every breath the character must take after the initial Toxin Resistance check.
A standard character can hold their breath for 48 seconds (16 Combat Turns) plus Swimming + Willpower hits in additional turns. Now if the character is dealing with Seven-7, colorless and odorless, call for some sort of edge test. "You feel funny". Make edge useful. |
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Sep 5 2007, 08:43 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
What the Hell? |
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Sep 5 2007, 08:45 AM
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#5
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Because it is such a superfluous Attribute as it is. |
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Sep 5 2007, 09:03 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 30-August 07 Member No.: 12,983 |
What? If it's an inhalation toxin, it makes no sense to have to re-resist it when you inhale? |
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Sep 5 2007, 09:05 AM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Nope. Especially since most toxins delivered like that are designed to be breathed in more than once. The rule he cited above basically said as much, too. When the Speed elapses, another test (and possible overdosing) occurs. "Every single breath" is just silly. Particulary with the way "knock out" effects work in Shadowrun, by causing actual damage. If real gases worked the way you described, people would be dead within seconds of breathing Tear Gas.
Holding your breath, however, is a solid defense for Inhalation-vectored toxins. At least until you can't do it any longer. Which is why Internal Air Tanks and the like are really handy for anyone runner built around defense. |
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Sep 5 2007, 09:11 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688 |
So let me get this straight: with NeuroStun used against Joe Schmoe, he's resisting 10 stun damage every combat turn with his measly 3 Body? After roughly 9 seconds of inhaling (or at least being immersed, because it is both Contact and Inhalation) this "stun gas" stuff, he's dead?
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Sep 5 2007, 09:18 AM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
For the most part, keeping in mind armor treatments like Chemical Seals work against Contact-vector toxins. Also keep in mind that most gas attacks disperse soon after they're released, unless -- as described in the example -- the targets are specifically stuck in a death trap. And, again, no real shock that a death trap is deadly.
Note also that the quoted rule is more of a guideline than a fast rule. It's saying that you should do those things (if they make sense). One of the few rules in the game that are like that as written, as opposed to implied. |
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Sep 5 2007, 09:23 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 30-August 07 Member No.: 12,983 |
My point. Why take my quote out of context? IF a gas is both Contact and Inhalation vector, is it not fair to say that only some of the effects effect a character that is holding their breath with their eyes closed? Neuro-stun would only make a character feel numb, or maybe only make a character feel a bit disoriented. And it makes no sense to have a knockout gas kill somebody. Why have the stun damage overflow into the physical? Knockout gas causes internal bleeding? |
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Sep 5 2007, 09:28 AM
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#11
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Doc's point was that 'every breath' might not be applicable if those extra breaths are taken before the Speed elapses.
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Sep 5 2007, 09:46 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688 |
I tried to show in my original post the discrepancy between the beginning of the paragraph ("extended time", "for several minutes") and the end of the paragraph ("When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again"). Both mean quite different things, because the Speed period is usually only 3 seconds (or 9 seconds in the case of Nausea Gas). My question is, do I have players reroll Toxin Resistance Tests every minute or every Combat Turn? Everyone seems to believe it is the latter option, but I think that it would be unrealistic to kill off people in seconds with a normal dose of stun gas. I imagine this kind of gas would be used for riot control, or animal experimentation, or something like that. While people would certainly die, I think 9 seconds until brain-dead is a little far-fetched. If I wanted to increase the lethality of the concentration, I imagine I would just increase the Power (like it mentions in the previous paragraph). Or perhaps after the minute passed, I would just release another dosage of the gas. BTW, keeping track of how often a character breathes by pointing to the Swimming skill seems... unnecessary. Much simpler just to give them a dice pool bonus to the Toxin Resistance Test if they somehow figure out they're getting gassed before their head smacks the floor (Perception Test? Sensors? etc.). |
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Sep 5 2007, 10:21 AM
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#13
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
This is a weakness of the SR4 toxin rules (and the SR3 toxin rules). Realistically, toxins should not be measured in doses but in milligrams, power should be multiplied by milligrams per kilograms, and speed should be divided into an absorption rate and a half-life, while effects should be based on blood concentration. But that is overly complex.
Managing the dosage of a gas is difficult even in a controlled setting, this is why you need a trained anesthesiologist if you want to knock someone out with nitrous oxide for surgery. If you give them too much then you will kill them. Edit: http://www.greatestjeneration.com/archives/000558.php http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2366917.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theate...isis#Gas_attack An example of why the corporation that makes neurostun didn't win Dunkie's non-lethal weapons bequest. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:35 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<leans in and whispers> This game in particular is the exact antithesis of realistic. It's usually somewhat believable within the context of its own setting, but not always. Toxins and drugs have always been handled really, really poorly in Shadowrun. SR4 is no exception. Just assume one "dose" is enough to get the job done as written under normal circumstances. Characters who get knocked out by Tear Gas are successfully knocked out; the drug won't do much more. Characters who inject multiple does of Novacrack will suffer overdose issues. etc. Unless the situation is really fubar, don't give it a second thought.
That's essentially what your quoted rule is saying. It's almost as if they recognized how bizarre the rules are and are "suggesting" that you wing it depending on the situation, then give a general guideline if you need it. CS/Tear Gas is a prime example. Resisting 5S damage every Combat Turn for 2 minutes (which is how long it says a single dose persists in normal situations) is going to kill pretty much anyone who gets knocked out in it, and that's just not a very believable consequence with Tear Gas. At least not for me. |
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Sep 5 2007, 06:17 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Especially for those of us who can breath tear gas without any ill effects.
Found out I could do that in boot camp. Apparently a few others in my boot camp company could do the same. We stood there breathing the tear gas filled air and it didn't bother us. Hell, I was fine until I got outside of the building and fresh air hit me. Then my skin started to itch a bit. The rest of my company was hacking, coughing, crying, etc. |
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Sep 5 2007, 06:32 PM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The mistake isn't that the rules are bizarre so much as that someone made tear gas that causes stun damage. That was a mistake. |
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Sep 6 2007, 07:00 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,085 |
I'm confused: it seems like the consensus is to be going for some type of realism in regards to the rules, but maybe shouldn't be. I like the SR movieish style resolution of poison, yah it's not real, but real isn't holding your breath, either.
Most poisons are not like movies where you put your shirt over your mouth and get out. There are poisonous frogs where you touch them, you touch your lips and you simply immediately die, as in the tiny, 1.5-inch, Golden Poison Frog (Phyllobates terribilis). VX atomized in the air. Whiff, blisters, muscle convulsions, in agonizing moments, death. Most weaponized poison gasses are also so reactive and volitile that they have very strong adhesive properties. There's lots of bad stuff out there, that, well, if it was intended to be used as a weapon, wouldn't be that hard to get. Improvised poisons... there's where you've got the possibility for rolls. |
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Sep 6 2007, 08:29 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
actually reading the whole toxin section:
The rules actually leave it up the the gamemaster... what extended duration (or repreated second doses) would do... For must of the 'stun' ones (especially 1 turn speeds) for me 'repeat exposure' I would probably treat as addiotnal tests (per interval) BUT the maximum the effect can be is 'one dose'... So trapped in a room full of 7-7... you ultimately are going to take 8 boxes of stun.... (unless you can resist for ever)... But unless the room is purposely somehow 'double dosed' (2 gas grenades in a smaller then 20ms (or perhaps one grenade in a phone booth...) you can never get a 'stronger' effect then the dosage... The toxin resitance test is how much of that dose you 'avoid' ... but over time, you will get the full dose... This is the 'friendly' way... My unfriendly ruling.. would probably be the above, but if you do not 'resist' the damage you always take atleat one box... so the 7-7 room... You take damage as per the resitance test... until you have taken 8 boxes... from there on out... you (each failed test) take a mere 'one' box from continued exposure (since you are getting more of a dosage)... Dying trapped in a gas room is possible, but 'unlikely' |
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Sep 6 2007, 07:01 PM
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#19
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Improvised poisons?
Mr. Johnson: That sweet taste in your drink is antifreeze, Mr. Shadorunner. You will die of kidney failure sever hours from now if you don't drink absurdly large amounts of real alcohol. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! |
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Sep 7 2007, 02:00 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 9-February 05 From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Member No.: 7,070 |
One silly question – how many doses does it take to fill a gas grenade?
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Sep 7 2007, 02:02 AM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
One dose is one dose; enough to get the job done. One dose of Gamma-Scopolamine is a completely different volume than one dose of CS/Tear Gas, for instance.
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Sep 7 2007, 02:14 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 9-February 05 From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Member No.: 7,070 |
Ohh, time to load up the grenades with Gamma Scop and DSMO.
Fun times! |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:33 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Definitely. The RAW gets the job done as a quick and dirty way to handle gases that are truly meant to be deadly, but the Tear Gas is ridiculous. |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:59 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
we can always just assume that this is the 2070 version of tear gas, and that it isn't quite as 'gentle' as our modern day tear gas i suppose. |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:29 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Perhaps we could house rule it, that the 5S damage is only temporary, and that filling your boxes only incapacitates you not make you unconsscious - and that it cannot cause physical damage at all. |
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