Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Re-applying toxins
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Veggiesama
(bolded for emphasis)

QUOTE ("SR4 @ p245")
Likewise, if a character remains in contact with a toxin over an extended time, such as being caught in a gas-filled room for several minutes, she may receive an additional dose and suffer stronger effects (or have to resist the toxin again). When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again, apply additional concentration effects as appropriate or call for another resistance test.


Let's assume you're resisting NeuroStun (10 power, Speed of 1 Combat Turn, and it becomes inert after 1 minute) and you get caught in an enclosed room for the whole minute.

Do you only have to resist the NeuroStun once, or do you resist it every Combat Turn until it becomes inert? Seems like the former method wouldn't be quite as effective, but the second method is sure-fire way to kill off everyone in the room (stun overflows to physical). Seems like I just need a little bit more clarification...
Ol' Scratch
The last part of your quote pretty much answers your question. The first part is fluff for toxins that are measured in minutes (don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure that's the norm for a lot of the non-combat drugs), while the actual rule states that you go by the toxin's Speed.

And yes, being in a death trap is a bad thing, whether it's due to guns mounted on the ceiling or overdoses of gas. The term "death trap" kind of defines itself.
Robot God
If the character is aware that he/she is inhaling poisonous gas, call for a roll after every breath the character must take after the initial Toxin Resistance check.
A standard character can hold their breath for 48 seconds (16 Combat Turns) plus Swimming + Willpower hits in additional turns.

Now if the character is dealing with Seven-7, colorless and odorless, call for some sort of edge test. "You feel funny". Make edge useful.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
...call for a roll after every breath the character must take after the initial Toxin Resistance check.]

What the Hell?
Fortune
QUOTE (Robot God)
Make edge useful.

Because it is such a superfluous Attribute as it is.
Robot God
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
...call for a roll after every breath the character must take after the initial Toxin Resistance check.]

What the Hell?

What? If it's an inhalation toxin, it makes no sense to have to re-resist it when you inhale?
Ol' Scratch
Nope. Especially since most toxins delivered like that are designed to be breathed in more than once. The rule he cited above basically said as much, too. When the Speed elapses, another test (and possible overdosing) occurs. "Every single breath" is just silly. Particulary with the way "knock out" effects work in Shadowrun, by causing actual damage. If real gases worked the way you described, people would be dead within seconds of breathing Tear Gas.

Holding your breath, however, is a solid defense for Inhalation-vectored toxins. At least until you can't do it any longer. Which is why Internal Air Tanks and the like are really handy for anyone runner built around defense.
Veggiesama
So let me get this straight: with NeuroStun used against Joe Schmoe, he's resisting 10 stun damage every combat turn with his measly 3 Body? After roughly 9 seconds of inhaling (or at least being immersed, because it is both Contact and Inhalation) this "stun gas" stuff, he's dead?
Ol' Scratch
For the most part, keeping in mind armor treatments like Chemical Seals work against Contact-vector toxins. Also keep in mind that most gas attacks disperse soon after they're released, unless -- as described in the example -- the targets are specifically stuck in a death trap. And, again, no real shock that a death trap is deadly.

Note also that the quoted rule is more of a guideline than a fast rule. It's saying that you should do those things (if they make sense). One of the few rules in the game that are like that as written, as opposed to implied.
Robot God
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Holding your breath, however, is a solid defense for Inhalation-vectored toxins.  At least until you can't do it any longer. 

My point. Why take my quote out of context?

IF a gas is both Contact and Inhalation vector, is it not fair to say that only some of the effects effect a character that is holding their breath with their eyes closed? Neuro-stun would only make a character feel numb, or maybe only make a character feel a bit disoriented. And it makes no sense to have a knockout gas kill somebody. Why have the stun damage overflow into the physical? Knockout gas causes internal bleeding?
Fortune
Doc's point was that 'every breath' might not be applicable if those extra breaths are taken before the Speed elapses.
Veggiesama
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
For the most part, keeping in mind armor treatments like Chemical Seals work against Contact-vector toxins.  Also keep in mind that most gas attacks disperse soon after they're released, unless -- as described in the example -- the targets are specifically stuck in a death trap.  And, again, no real shock that a death trap is deadly.

Note also that the quoted rule is more of a guideline than a fast rule.  It's saying that you should do those things (if they make sense).  One of the few rules in the game that are like that as written, as opposed to implied.

I tried to show in my original post the discrepancy between the beginning of the paragraph ("extended time", "for several minutes") and the end of the paragraph ("When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again"). Both mean quite different things, because the Speed period is usually only 3 seconds (or 9 seconds in the case of Nausea Gas).

My question is, do I have players reroll Toxin Resistance Tests every minute or every Combat Turn? Everyone seems to believe it is the latter option, but I think that it would be unrealistic to kill off people in seconds with a normal dose of stun gas. I imagine this kind of gas would be used for riot control, or animal experimentation, or something like that. While people would certainly die, I think 9 seconds until brain-dead is a little far-fetched.

If I wanted to increase the lethality of the concentration, I imagine I would just increase the Power (like it mentions in the previous paragraph). Or perhaps after the minute passed, I would just release another dosage of the gas.

BTW, keeping track of how often a character breathes by pointing to the Swimming skill seems... unnecessary. Much simpler just to give them a dice pool bonus to the Toxin Resistance Test if they somehow figure out they're getting gassed before their head smacks the floor (Perception Test? Sensors? etc.).
hyzmarca
This is a weakness of the SR4 toxin rules (and the SR3 toxin rules). Realistically, toxins should not be measured in doses but in milligrams, power should be multiplied by milligrams per kilograms, and speed should be divided into an absorption rate and a half-life, while effects should be based on blood concentration. But that is overly complex.

Managing the dosage of a gas is difficult even in a controlled setting, this is why you need a trained anesthesiologist if you want to knock someone out with nitrous oxide for surgery. If you give them too much then you will kill them.

Edit:
http://www.greatestjeneration.com/archives/000558.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2366917.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theate...isis#Gas_attack

An example of why the corporation that makes neurostun didn't win Dunkie's non-lethal weapons bequest.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Veggiesama)
I tried to show in my original post the discrepancy between the beginning of the paragraph ("extended time", "for several minutes") and the end of the paragraph ("When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again"). Both mean quite different things, because the Speed period is usually only 3 seconds (or 9 seconds in the case of Nausea Gas).

<leans in and whispers> This game in particular is the exact antithesis of realistic. It's usually somewhat believable within the context of its own setting, but not always. Toxins and drugs have always been handled really, really poorly in Shadowrun. SR4 is no exception.

Just assume one "dose" is enough to get the job done as written under normal circumstances. Characters who get knocked out by Tear Gas are successfully knocked out; the drug won't do much more. Characters who inject multiple does of Novacrack will suffer overdose issues. etc. Unless the situation is really fubar, don't give it a second thought.

QUOTE
My question is, do I have players reroll Toxin Resistance Tests every minute or every Combat Turn? Everyone seems to believe it is the latter option, but I think that it would be unrealistic to kill off people in seconds with a normal dose of stun gas.

That's essentially what your quoted rule is saying. It's almost as if they recognized how bizarre the rules are and are "suggesting" that you wing it depending on the situation, then give a general guideline if you need it. CS/Tear Gas is a prime example. Resisting 5S damage every Combat Turn for 2 minutes (which is how long it says a single dose persists in normal situations) is going to kill pretty much anyone who gets knocked out in it, and that's just not a very believable consequence with Tear Gas. At least not for me.
darthmord
Especially for those of us who can breath tear gas without any ill effects.

Found out I could do that in boot camp. Apparently a few others in my boot camp company could do the same. We stood there breathing the tear gas filled air and it didn't bother us. Hell, I was fine until I got outside of the building and fresh air hit me. Then my skin started to itch a bit.

The rest of my company was hacking, coughing, crying, etc.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Sep 5 2007, 03:46 AM)
I tried to show in my original post the discrepancy between the beginning of the paragraph ("extended time", "for several minutes") and the end of the paragraph ("When the toxin's Speed period has elapsed again"). Both mean quite different things, because the Speed period is usually only 3 seconds (or 9 seconds in the case of Nausea Gas).

<leans in and whispers> This game in particular is the exact antithesis of realistic. It's usually somewhat believable within the context of its own setting, but not always. Toxins and drugs have always been handled really, really poorly in Shadowrun. SR4 is no exception.

Just assume one "dose" is enough to get the job done as written under normal circumstances. Characters who get knocked out by Tear Gas are successfully knocked out; the drug won't do much more. Characters who inject multiple does of Novacrack will suffer overdose issues. etc. Unless the situation is really fubar, don't give it a second thought.

QUOTE
My question is, do I have players reroll Toxin Resistance Tests every minute or every Combat Turn? Everyone seems to believe it is the latter option, but I think that it would be unrealistic to kill off people in seconds with a normal dose of stun gas.

That's essentially what your quoted rule is saying. It's almost as if they recognized how bizarre the rules are and are "suggesting" that you wing it depending on the situation, then give a general guideline if you need it. CS/Tear Gas is a prime example. Resisting 5S damage every Combat Turn for 2 minutes (which is how long it says a single dose persists in normal situations) is going to kill pretty much anyone who gets knocked out in it, and that's just not a very believable consequence with Tear Gas. At least not for me.

The mistake isn't that the rules are bizarre so much as that someone made tear gas that causes stun damage. That was a mistake.
Begby
I'm confused: it seems like the consensus is to be going for some type of realism in regards to the rules, but maybe shouldn't be. I like the SR movieish style resolution of poison, yah it's not real, but real isn't holding your breath, either.

Most poisons are not like movies where you put your shirt over your mouth and get out. There are poisonous frogs where you touch them, you touch your lips and you simply immediately die, as in the tiny, 1.5-inch, Golden Poison Frog (Phyllobates terribilis).

VX atomized in the air. Whiff, blisters, muscle convulsions, in agonizing moments, death.

Most weaponized poison gasses are also so reactive and volitile that they have very strong adhesive properties.

There's lots of bad stuff out there, that, well, if it was intended to be used as a weapon, wouldn't be that hard to get.

Improvised poisons... there's where you've got the possibility for rolls.


laughingowl
actually reading the whole toxin section:

QUOTE
Concentration
If a toxin is applied at concentrated levels (more than a single dose), the gamemaster may increase the Power of the toxin as he feels appropriate, as well as increasing the damage it causes or its other eff ects by an appropriate amount.
  Likewise, if a character remains in contact with a toxin over an extended period, such as being caught in a gas-filled room for several minutes, she may receive an additional dose and suffer stronger effects (or have to resist the toxin again). When the toxin’s Speed period has elapsed again, apply additional concentration effects as appropriate or call for another resistance test.



The rules actually leave it up the the gamemaster... what extended duration (or repreated second doses) would do...

For must of the 'stun' ones (especially 1 turn speeds) for me 'repeat exposure' I would probably treat as addiotnal tests (per interval) BUT the maximum the effect can be is 'one dose'...

So trapped in a room full of 7-7... you ultimately are going to take 8 boxes of stun.... (unless you can resist for ever)...

But unless the room is purposely somehow 'double dosed' (2 gas grenades in a smaller then 20ms (or perhaps one grenade in a phone booth...) you can never get a 'stronger' effect then the dosage...

The toxin resitance test is how much of that dose you 'avoid' ... but over time, you will get the full dose...

This is the 'friendly' way...

My unfriendly ruling.. would probably be the above, but if you do not 'resist' the damage you always take atleat one box...

so the 7-7 room...

You take damage as per the resitance test... until you have taken 8 boxes... from there on out... you (each failed test) take a mere 'one' box from continued exposure (since you are getting more of a dosage)...

Dying trapped in a gas room is possible, but 'unlikely'
hyzmarca
Improvised poisons?

Mr. Johnson: That sweet taste in your drink is antifreeze, Mr. Shadorunner. You will die of kidney failure sever hours from now if you don't drink absurdly large amounts of real alcohol. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!


Thomas
One silly question – how many doses does it take to fill a gas grenade?
Ol' Scratch
One dose is one dose; enough to get the job done. One dose of Gamma-Scopolamine is a completely different volume than one dose of CS/Tear Gas, for instance.
Thomas
Ohh, time to load up the grenades with Gamma Scop and DSMO.

Fun times!
Whipstitch
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The mistake isn't that the rules are bizarre so much as that someone made tear gas that causes stun damage. That was a mistake.

Definitely. The RAW gets the job done as a quick and dirty way to handle gases that are truly meant to be deadly, but the Tear Gas is ridiculous.
Jaid
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 5 2007, 01:32 PM)
The mistake isn't that the rules are bizarre so much as that someone made tear gas that causes stun damage. That was a mistake.

Definitely. The RAW gets the job done as a quick and dirty way to handle gases that are truly meant to be deadly, but the Tear Gas is ridiculous.

we can always just assume that this is the 2070 version of tear gas, and that it isn't quite as 'gentle' as our modern day tear gas i suppose.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 6 2007, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 5 2007, 01:32 PM)
The mistake isn't that the rules are bizarre so much as that someone made tear gas that causes stun damage. That was a mistake.

Definitely. The RAW gets the job done as a quick and dirty way to handle gases that are truly meant to be deadly, but the Tear Gas is ridiculous.

we can always just assume that this is the 2070 version of tear gas, and that it isn't quite as 'gentle' as our modern day tear gas i suppose.

Perhaps we could house rule it, that the 5S damage is only temporary, and that filling your boxes only incapacitates you not make you unconsscious - and that it cannot cause physical damage at all.
hyzmarca
Just take away the stun damage and just leave Disorientation.
For something stronger, take away Stun and Disorientation and make it give a -Power/2 (round up) dice penalty.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Just take away the stun damage and just leave Disorientation.
For something stronger, take away Stun and Disorientation and make it give a -Power/2 (round up) dice penalty.

Well since the power is always 5 , the dice penalty (total) would also always be 3 . Agreed, that's a penalty to most people, but hardly enough to prevent them for carrying out offensive or defensive actions in combat. Even a moderately trained soldier will have 6 dice with his firearm (probably 8 or more), and thus would be able to fire albeit somewhat less effectively.

But that removed the gas function of riot control and makes it only a "debuff"... there would be nothing in those rules that makes it hard for people to remain in the gas cloud, and soldiers affected by it would still be able to fight, albeit in a sniffly and alot more inefficient manner.

Since the gas has been successfully used to "smoke" out soldiers inside bunkers etc., there should either be a mechanic that at least partly incapacitates the victims or forces them to leave the area (a composure check perhaps?).

Of course, I still want the rules to be fairly simple and abstract, as long as the gas works more or less like it does in RL (like bullets in SR also are capable of killing and wounding).

If we use your house rules, a target recieved a -3 for the gas' power would be hard pressed to make a composure test threshold... 3. Which means that only those with over-average stats and shadowrunners will have a chance to simply stay put. Yeah, I have a friend who actually wasn't much bothered by the gas at all (tested in the militairy), but when fired into crowds you seldom see many people still standing there throwing stones.

Hmm, I think I'd still like at least the possibility if a target being incapacitated and not just running away, but otherwise this could work for me.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012