 Athletics skill and recreational sports, Athletics(Quarters)-4/6, anyone? |
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 Nov 19 2003, 05:38 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638  |
Can specific sports (Baseball, Football, Combat Bike, etc.) be considered specializations of the Athletics skill? Or should they be covered by their own unique active skill?
What about recreational sports, such as Golf, Bowling, Billiards/Pool, and Darts? Finally, would parlor games (things like Quarters and Charades, but not including boardgames) also qualify? (I'm only half-joking with this one :)) I have a character concept in mind for a professional poolhall hustler. Besides having a background knowledge skill in Billiards Lore, he's also got Clubs(Pool cue), Throwing, Stealth(Con), and Intimidation. Ideally, I'd like to set him up with Athletics(Billiards) as well, but that may just be too corny. However, I'd hate to have to spend active skill points on such a narrow set of activities. Any ideas? |
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Nov 19 2003, 05:42 PM
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#2
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Personally, I'd put billiards as a specialization of a concentration, probably of athletics. Specializations are from SR2 mostly, although it also showed up as preferred weapons in the Cannon Companion; effectively you take one from your concentration and take your previous concentration skill + 1 for your specialization, plus it costs I think only 2/3 the karma cost of the concentration to increase.
Don't forget to also take knowledge skill in physics, bad smokes and cheap booze. |
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Nov 19 2003, 05:44 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 10-September 02 From: Essen, Germany Member No.: 3,245 |
I'd count Billiard as a knowledge skill. Of course, it isn't really a knowledge thing, but I wouldn't let players pay that much just to flesh out their characters. It's just a nifty feature after all, nothing else..... |
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Nov 19 2003, 05:44 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, Athletics does include sports. Whether it's recreational or professional is based upon your intent and the other skills you take; if you just have Athletics (Sport/Game), chances are you're just an amateur even if it's a high rating. But if you have several complimentary Knowledge Skills and Active Skills to go along with it, you could be considered a pro if that's what you wish to be.
In my mind, Athletics only covers the, well, athletic aspects of a given sport. Take baseball as an example. When playing baseball, Athletics would be used while running the bases or trying to catch a ball. It wouldn't be used when trying to hit a ball (that's Clubs) or throwing a pitch (that's Thrown Weapons). This is why you can be a good short stop but suck at bat or on the pitcher's mound, and vice versa. But that second paragraph is just my take on it. As far as I know, the Athletics skill would cover every aspect of most games like that... but don't quote me on that. For Billiards? I don't see how Athletics would apply very much. Pole Arms/Staves? Yes. Spatial Geometry (Trick Shots) knowledge skill (so you know how to shoot an English or other fancy move)? Yes. Billiards knowledge skill (so you know the rules)? Yes. Athletics? Not so much. |
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Nov 19 2003, 06:15 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
But lining up that trick shot, putting that right amount of english on the ball, shooting with a bridge... these are all things that require a certain amount of hand-eye coordination, muscle control, and sometimes even flexibility (ever sprawl yourself out across a table to take a sure-thing shot?). I have a pretty good knack for spatial geometry (IMHO :)), but that won't help me a lick if I overpower the ball, or couldn't hold the cue steady enough to get the right english. |
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Nov 19 2003, 06:22 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I do the same thing, but I remember to call them active skills which only happen to cost as much as knowledge skills. That way the line between active and knowledge isn't further blurred, and you can link the skill to an appropriate attribute rather than Intelligence. For sports, I say just take the sport as a skill. I don't really think that someone with Athletics 10 is automatically phenomenal at all sports, just that he has an easy time skill-defaulting. My way lets you can have Baseball (stealing), Billiards (trick shots), Football (shit-talking), etc., rather than the less interesting Athletics (Sport). It also makes more sense to keep the skill seperate for a mage/adept who wishes to use it as a centering skill. |
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Nov 19 2003, 06:26 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Of course not, but it often works that way in bad movies and TV shows. I remember noting that McGuyver is a top-notch pool player because he knows that "Every action has an equal an opposite reaction" (:please:). |
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Nov 19 2003, 06:37 PM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
...which is why I listed it as a complimentary knowledge skill. I never once said it was used to actually play the game. Instead, it's there to help you figure out what shot to make and how to go about doing it. I don't care how much control you have over the cue; if you don't know what you're going to do with that control, it's not going to do you much good, either.
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Nov 19 2003, 06:43 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 30-March 03 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 4,355 |
First, I love the pool hustler concept. Nice work!
Second, I believe "Con" is a specialization of Negotiations, not Stealth. |
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Nov 19 2003, 07:15 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
You are correct, sir! Here... have a cookie. Don't worry about the moving rasins. :wobble: |
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Nov 19 2003, 07:58 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
But it doesn't work like that in real life. It's like saying that a pitcher should use his knowledge of fluid turbulence to help him throw a knuckleball, or a bowler should use his knowledge of physics to figure out how to pick up a split. They don't. They use their knowledge of the game. Sure, they might know how it works, but that knowledge doesn't help them do it better. This is fine for unrealistic fun, which I'm an advocate of, but please don't insist that mathematicians actually make better pool players. |
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Nov 19 2003, 08:40 PM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Oy. Knowledge Skills are great because you can use so many different ones to perform the same basic feat. Spatial Geometry (Trick Shots) is every bit as useful to a pool shark as just taking a Trick Shots knowledge skill. The former is more general and let's you use the skill for other things, while the later is strictly geared towards playing pool and nothing else (and in which case he's superior to the Spatial Geometry character, as general skills are better than specializations). But an Athletics skill isn't going to do you much good at the pool table. The examples given above by Spookymonster are pretty silly, as you could use similar arguments to explain why Athletics is the skill to use in just about any other field, including those covered by other Active Skills (such as Stealth, Melee Weapons, Firearms, and even Vehicle Skills). Of the Active Skills currently used in the game, Pole Arms/Staves is the one that's going to come into play as the basic skill of a pool shark. Using a bridge would be the equivalence of using a laser sight on a difficult shot that you can't quite reach comfortably, for instance; it wouldn't be a use of Athletics. That said, a character who has complimentary knowledge skills that can be applied to the game are going to be players who are better at it than those who do not have applicable skills. Billiards would be used so you know which ball you need to shoot next, who's turn it is, what you need to do to win, and all of that. Spatial Geometry (Trick Shots) could be applied as Complimentary Dice any time you make a difficult trick shot, just like a general Trick Shots skill could. And in those two cases in particular, the former would be useful in other things but would have a higher TN while the latter would be pretty useless outside a pool hall but would have a lower TN. That's what's so great about Knowledge Skills -- my favorite addition to the 3rd Edition. Not only do they add a ton of flavor to a character, but they're so damn versatile and open-ended. Take a look at a few of the Archetypes in the book. The Weapon Specialist in particular. If memory serves, she has a Physics (Ballistics) knowledge skill. Will it help her very often when making a shot? Highly unlikely. But it's a perfectly believable and practical skill for her to have. In any case, another useful Active Skill to (create/take) for such a character would be Performance (Billiards) and the Acting knowledge skill. The former would be a Charisma-linked skill that let's you really show off when you choose to do so, and the latter would be a complimentary skill to your Negotiations (Con) skill during the bluff. But now I'm sure Zazen's going to waltz in and say that professionally trained actors don't make better conmen, too. :please: |
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Nov 19 2003, 09:22 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
That's what happens when you post too hastily and don't pay attention. Spooky did not put forth the argument that Athletics should be used, only that Spatial Geometry would be of little help. You also declined to address the specific irrelevence of geometry to pool, saying over and over that it is useful without explaining why or debunking my explanations of why not. Then you went on a rant about the general greatness of complimentary skills instead of addressing anything I said. I can't figure out why you quoted my post in the first place. |
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Nov 19 2003, 09:37 PM
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#14
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Physics? Eh... Maybe. Geometry? Surely!
Reading angles and such... Physics, of course, could be used to figure out how hard to hit... Get a Math SPU for the "OK, if I hit this hard at this angle, it'll do this..." stuff. ;p |
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Nov 19 2003, 09:38 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
I hate the whole complementary skill thing. Its just a ripe fruit for munchkins to pick and leads to far to much begging for extra dice during the game.
The massive broadness of the athletics skill has always been a small irritation in shadowrun, but it is that way for simplicity. Unless you want to split it into zillions of smaller skills (like they did with firearms and armed combat) and deal with all the problems that creates you might as well just live with it. Have the charachter take a specilization in billiards from athletics. Sadly to be very good at billiards you also end up knowing how to ski, rock climb, play jai-alai, swim on the surface (but not underwater) etc etc etc but it won't make much difference in the game. You might also consider athletics/parlor games, so you can also throw darts etc well. Sure its not exactly the skill you want, but the only option from there is to change the rules somehow as with further specialization ala sr2 or an aptitude for the concentration (both of which are fine with me, but have to be gm approved). The staff/pool cue skill is just for breaking people and things with them though, not for playing the game. And sure take a knowledge skill in billards as well so you know the history and trivia of pool as well. Take another in pool-halls to know the people and places of pool wherever you live. |
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Nov 19 2003, 09:38 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Sorry, but it's your ignorance showing here. Try reading Spooky's post, and pay careful attention to what he quoted... particular the first two sentences. You know, where I was pointing out that Athletics didn't really apply at all to a game like Pool. Hence his use of terms like "hand-eye coordination" and "muscle control." He then went on to say that despite having a knack for spatial geometry, it doesn't help him shoot the ball. I never said it did. That's why it's a complementry skill, not the active, primary skill being used. It's a complimentary skill for the reasons I mentioned above. The player has a better chance of formulating a shot because he has a better understanding of how the ball will bounce around the table and interact with the other balls. Likewise, I never said a mathematician would make a superior pool shark. The reason I listed the skill to begin with is actually for exactly the opposite reason; a pool shark would probably make a better mathematician, at least regarding spatial geometry, because they have a practical, real-world understanding of it.
I declined to address that because it's not irrelevant, as I have mentioned several times in thread. Including this one and the previous one in which you claim I didn't. You're just choosing to be intentionally ignorant as you often do because you don't like me. I'm not stupid. You make it abundantly clear in every thread in which you try to make me look like a fool, rather than actively discussing the topic at hand -- apparently oblivious that it makes you look at least as pathetic as what you're trying to demonstrate to others for whatever pathetic reason you have. "Oh, I don't understand you at all." <twirls hair and kicks a leg up> "But you're a big dummy head, Funk, and so I'm just going to keep taunting you and pretending to point out how stupid you are. Teehee! I don't care if I come in and taunt you in a perfectly reasonable thread, trying to prove how some requested suggestions are worthless just because you're saying them. I'm so cool! Yay me! Now I can go whack off while laughing at how superior I am to you! Go me!" Oh, and just so you know, that's an actual rant. I know I tend to overreact on occassion, but at least I try to help others around here. Your primary goal seems to simply be to goad me on... but, oh well, to each their own. I just wish there was a way to ignore people on these boards, both so I can ignore stupid little fucks like you and so others could have the option to ignore me if they don't like my thoughts. |
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Nov 19 2003, 09:39 PM
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#17
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Personally, I'd keep Billiards under athletics for three basic reasons:
1) Its easier. And honestly, avoiding headaches is always a plus in my book. 2) Athletics seems to be one of those general, catch all categories. 'Physical activities' isn't all that specific to me. So when in doubt, I generally stick things in there for simplicity's sake. 3) A lot of the recommendations I've seen thrown around don't seem totally accurate for one reason or another. Physics is useful, but barely. The problem with physics is it depends on a scientific environment where you can be sure of the amount of force, the angles and measurements. Pool involves eyeballing a lot of stuff and knowing how to control your own body. If you could use a motorized pool stick and a compass, physics would work. Until then the reliance on your physical body FAR outweighs the physics aspects. With trick shots it becomes even more staggering. The physics of the game are fairly straightforward, however the steadiness of hand to pull them off is significant. Similar problems go with using polearms or clubs. A pool stick isn't a club, and if you use it like that, you're going to do poorly. It's just like if someone tried to play a clarinet like its a flute. Yes, there are underlying similarities, but it only goes so far. I'm not sure how I like the idea of splitting up the skills so that a good pool shark needs to know a wide variety of skills to compete either. Maybe if you really planned on having pool be a central theme in your game, but for the most part I think your GM is going to want to do less than 2 rolls per person per game. I do, however, rather like the idea Zazen suggested of making up a special 'pool' skill with knowledge costs. I'd link it to quickness, though. |
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Nov 19 2003, 10:10 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Yes DF, everything I post is because I hate you. Whenever I disagree with something you say, it's a personal attack (just like when anyone else disagrees with you). In fact, if I ever find out where you live I'll drive there and beat you up physically.
Glad we see eye to eye. |
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Nov 19 2003, 10:34 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
According to the book, specializations of the Athletics skill include (but are not limited to), 'Running, Climbing, Lifting, Jumping, Escape Artist, Swimming or by specific sport'. so the question then becomes 'what qualifies something as a sport?'. Well, Dictionary.com has several definitions, but I think the one that best applies is 'An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively'. I interpret this to mean any competitive game where you can break a sweat. This would seem to include the basics (Football, Baseball, et al.) but preclude most recreational sports, such as Golf, Bowling, and Billiards. Parlor games like Quarters and Charades are right out.
Of course, another measure might be if the International Olympic Comittee recognizes it as a sport. In this case, Golf, Billiards, Tug of War, and even Life Saving are also considered sports. Unfortunately, Quarters, Charades, and Up-and-Down-the-River are still invalid. I kind of like Doc's suggestion of it being a Performance skill, at least for Trick Shots. And while I agree that several skills compliment the primary Billiard's skill well, I'm still left with a quandry as to what exactly that primary skill is. At this point, I think I'm going to go with the IOC's 'ruling' and roll it up under Athletics, but with Spatial Geometry and Trick Shots as complimentaries. |
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Nov 19 2003, 10:41 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Just to add a little to the argument, spacial geometry doesn't really take into account the english on the ball. You can argue all you want, but drag your big brains down to the local pool hall and be amazed by the abilities of the dumbass who kicks your butt. You are left with two options, either geometry isn't really that important (other than what is intuitive to most of us) or the other guy is much smarter than you.
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Nov 19 2003, 10:53 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
I don't think parlour room type skills should be active at all. I mean, they are (most likely) nowhere as important as Sorcery or Pistols. I suppose if you were playing a very heavy social game, then it could work.
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Nov 19 2003, 11:02 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
What does a knack for Spatial Geometry have to do with how smart you are? Note every time I've mentioned it as a suggestion, I've specifically mentioned a Trick Shots specialization in it. Meaning, you're really good at that particular aspect of it, but your actual knowledge of Spatial Geometry is lacking. (Yes, character creation doesn't let you truly show this since you're only going to be two points off, but it's still the intent.) So yes, Bubba the Troll who's been playing pool since he was 11 can do some amazing things with a cue stick. But if both Bubba the Troll and Ted the Trog, who are otherwise identical in everyway save that Bubba is a pool shark while Ted never played the game a day in his life, Bubba would have an advantage when he takes Spatial Geometry since he has practical knowledge of how it works. Note that complimentary skills can work both ways, too. In such a case, Bubba might get to use his general Spatial Geometry skill and use his Billiards skill (however you want to classify it) as a Complimentary Skill for a few of the questions when he's taking an exam for the very same reason. The same is true with musicians. They have a developed knack for timing and recognizing patterns, so they tend to be better at decryption and even mathematics compared to people with no experience in a related field or hobby. The same is true with the earlier example I gave of an actor trying to be a conman or a conman trying his hand at acting. The same is true with a cartoonist who's in school to become an architect, or an architect trying his hand at cartooning. And the same is true in many other examples, too. Just keep in mind that this is relative to other people who don't have the same experiences. |
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Nov 20 2003, 01:26 AM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Ermmm *Gets ready to duck*
Hobby Skill anybody? It's there on pg 58 (SR3) Street, Academic, Sixth world, Background and Interests (ie hobbies) All though i feel that in some instance's not all hobbie skills should default to (be based on) Intelliganece. I myself would put this as Reaction. Complimentry skills are there to be used if it is aproperiate. Gm has final say in such things (as they should). But geometery? only if they know what angle (excatly) they are hitting at will thi be of any use. And unless you are going to have the back up cyberware for this it's pointlees to discuss, since most sports in 2063 don't allow augmention. Or only to a limited degree. What you people are saying is that in 2063 billards has become an exam in maths not a test of skill! |
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Nov 20 2003, 02:29 AM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Er... have you seen a billiards table recently? They have those markings for a reason, that reason being to aid in judging angles...
~J |
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Nov 20 2003, 02:30 AM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Oooh...Mathematics as a complimentary skill for gambling?
-Siege |
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