But lining up that trick shot, putting that right amount of english on the ball, shooting with a bridge... these are all things that require a certain amount of hand-eye coordination, muscle control, and sometimes even flexibility (ever sprawl yourself out across a table to take a sure-thing shot?). I have a pretty good knack for spatial geometry (IMHO ), but that won't help me a lick if I overpower the ball, or couldn't hold the cue steady enough to get the right english.

I do the same thing, but I remember to call them active skills which only happen to cost as much as knowledge skills. That way the line between active and knowledge isn't further blurred, and you can link the skill to an appropriate attribute rather than Intelligence.

For sports, I say just take the sport as a skill. I don't really think that someone with Athletics 10 is automatically phenomenal at all sports, just that he has an easy time skill-defaulting. My way lets you can have Baseball (stealing), Billiards (trick shots), Football (shit-talking), etc., rather than the less interesting Athletics (Sport). It also makes more sense to keep the skill seperate for a mage/adept who wishes to use it as a centering skill.

Of course not, but it often works that way in bad movies and TV shows. I remember noting that McGuyver is a top-notch pool player because he knows that "Every action has an equal an opposite reaction" ().

You are correct, sir! Here... have a cookie. Don't worry about the moving rasins.

But it doesn't work like that in real life. It's like saying that a pitcher should use his knowledge of fluid turbulence to help him throw a knuckleball, or a bowler should use his knowledge of physics to figure out how to pick up a split. They don't. They use their knowledge of the game. Sure, they might know how it works, but that knowledge doesn't help them do it better.

This is fine for unrealistic fun, which I'm an advocate of, but please don't insist that mathematicians actually make better pool players.

Oy.

Knowledge Skills are great because you can use so many different ones to perform the same basic feat. Spatial Geometry (Trick Shots) is every bit as useful to a pool shark as just taking a Trick Shots knowledge skill. The former is more general and let's you use the skill for other things, while the later is strictly geared towards playing pool and nothing else (and in which case he's superior to the Spatial Geometry character, as general skills are better than specializations).

But an Athletics skill isn't going to do you much good at the pool table. The examples given above by Spookymonster are pretty silly, as you could use similar arguments to explain why Athletics is the skill to use in just about any other field, including those covered by other Active Skills (such as Stealth, Melee Weapons, Firearms, and even Vehicle Skills). Of the Active Skills currently used in the game, Pole Arms/Staves is the one that's going to come into play as the basic skill of a pool shark. Using a bridge would be the equivalence of using a laser sight on a difficult shot that you can't quite reach comfortably, for instance; it wouldn't be a use of Athletics.

That said, a character who has complimentary knowledge skills that can be applied to the game are going to be players who are better at it than those who do not have applicable skills. Billiards would be used so you know which ball you need to shoot next, who's turn it is, what you need to do to win, and all of that. Spatial Geometry (Trick Shots) could be applied as Complimentary Dice any time you make a difficult trick shot, just like a general Trick Shots skill could. And in those two cases in particular, the former would be useful in other things but would have a higher TN while the latter would be pretty useless outside a pool hall but would have a lower TN. That's what's so great about Knowledge Skills -- my favorite addition to the 3rd Edition. Not only do they add a ton of flavor to a character, but they're so damn versatile and open-ended.

Take a look at a few of the Archetypes in the book. The Weapon Specialist in particular. If memory serves, she has a Physics (Ballistics) knowledge skill. Will it help her very often when making a shot? Highly unlikely. But it's a perfectly believable and practical skill for her to have.

In any case, another useful Active Skill to (create/take) for such a character would be Performance (Billiards) and the Acting knowledge skill. The former would be a Charisma-linked skill that let's you really show off when you choose to do so, and the latter would be a complimentary skill to your Negotiations (Con) skill during the bluff.

But now I'm sure Zazen's going to waltz in and say that professionally trained actors don't make better conmen, too.

That's what happens when you post too hastily and don't pay attention. Spooky did not put forth the argument that Athletics should be used, only that Spatial Geometry would be of little help.


You also declined to address the specific irrelevence of geometry to pool, saying over and over that it is useful without explaining why or debunking my explanations of why not. Then you went on a rant about the general greatness of complimentary skills instead of addressing anything I said. I can't figure out why you quoted my post in the first place.

Sorry, but it's your ignorance showing here. Try reading Spooky's post, and pay careful attention to what he quoted... particular the first two sentences. You know, where I was pointing out that Athletics didn't really apply at all to a game like Pool. Hence his use of terms like "hand-eye coordination" and "muscle control."

He then went on to say that despite having a knack for spatial geometry, it doesn't help him shoot the ball. I never said it did. That's why it's a complementry skill, not the active, primary skill being used. It's a complimentary skill for the reasons I mentioned above. The player has a better chance of formulating a shot because he has a better understanding of how the ball will bounce around the table and interact with the other balls.

Likewise, I never said a mathematician would make a superior pool shark. The reason I listed the skill to begin with is actually for exactly the opposite reason; a pool shark would probably make a better mathematician, at least regarding spatial geometry, because they have a practical, real-world understanding of it.

I declined to address that because it's not irrelevant, as I have mentioned several times in thread. Including this one and the previous one in which you claim I didn't. You're just choosing to be intentionally ignorant as you often do because you don't like me. I'm not stupid. You make it abundantly clear in every thread in which you try to make me look like a fool, rather than actively discussing the topic at hand -- apparently oblivious that it makes you look at least as pathetic as what you're trying to demonstrate to others for whatever pathetic reason you have.

"Oh, I don't understand you at all." <twirls hair and kicks a leg up> "But you're a big dummy head, Funk, and so I'm just going to keep taunting you and pretending to point out how stupid you are. Teehee! I don't care if I come in and taunt you in a perfectly reasonable thread, trying to prove how some requested suggestions are worthless just because you're saying them. I'm so cool! Yay me! Now I can go whack off while laughing at how superior I am to you! Go me!"

Oh, and just so you know, that's an actual rant. I know I tend to overreact on occassion, but at least I try to help others around here. Your primary goal seems to simply be to goad me on... but, oh well, to each their own. I just wish there was a way to ignore people on these boards, both so I can ignore stupid little fucks like you and so others could have the option to ignore me if they don't like my thoughts.

What does a knack for Spatial Geometry have to do with how smart you are? Note every time I've mentioned it as a suggestion, I've specifically mentioned a Trick Shots specialization in it. Meaning, you're really good at that particular aspect of it, but your actual knowledge of Spatial Geometry is lacking. (Yes, character creation doesn't let you truly show this since you're only going to be two points off, but it's still the intent.)

So yes, Bubba the Troll who's been playing pool since he was 11 can do some amazing things with a cue stick. But if both Bubba the Troll and Ted the Trog, who are otherwise identical in everyway save that Bubba is a pool shark while Ted never played the game a day in his life, Bubba would have an advantage when he takes Spatial Geometry since he has practical knowledge of how it works.

Note that complimentary skills can work both ways, too. In such a case, Bubba might get to use his general Spatial Geometry skill and use his Billiards skill (however you want to classify it) as a Complimentary Skill for a few of the questions when he's taking an exam for the very same reason.

The same is true with musicians. They have a developed knack for timing and recognizing patterns, so they tend to be better at decryption and even mathematics compared to people with no experience in a related field or hobby. The same is true with the earlier example I gave of an actor trying to be a conman or a conman trying his hand at acting. The same is true with a cartoonist who's in school to become an architect, or an architect trying his hand at cartooning. And the same is true in many other examples, too. Just keep in mind that this is relative to other people who don't have the same experiences.

No I haven't, i play pool and snooker (of which my above comments can be applied to both). And i would so think that "outside aids would be a cop out in the the sport. Very much like today when i found out that the roulette tables where i now work have calulators to help in adding up the bet!! Me and the Pit boss both looked at each other and said "bollocks to that, how you diable it?"

And how exactly does this differ from your average firearms skill? Take away the hand-eye coordination, timing, and mental capacity, and what else is left?

If I could pick up the best book ever written about billiards, memorize it, walk into a pool hall for the first time in my life and win even 50% of my games that night, I might be inclined to agree that it's only a knowledge skill. But that just ain't possible. You can't learn proper english from a book - you've got to feel it and see it.

Hmm. There's being able to hold the gun steady, which is a big deal. I've been cursed with very thin arms and wrists, and small hands; holding a shotgun up while lining up the sight on a target is something of a task, and after having to do it more than two or three times in quick succession, it can somewhat wear me out.

And then there's recoil. If you don't practice just firing a gun and seeing and feeling physically what it does when it discharges, no amount of booklearning in the world will help you in a firefight, when everything is pumping and going, and you just need not to think about that gun after you make the decision to pull the trigger.

Needless to say, you've never fired a gun before, or you would know this. I've barely fired enough firearms to be more than an armchair expert, and even I know there's a huge world of difference in playing silly games like Unreal Tournament and Counterstrike, and actually firing a semi-automatic or fully automatic weapon in a combat situation. I've read plenty of books about such guns, and I've watch the History Channel a lot. These do not in any way qualify me to be a marksman, because I JUST DON'T HAVE THE SKILL.

Incidentally, I didn't say that billiards was a "book" skill. I said I likened it more with games requiring more hand-eye coordination, timing, and mental capacity, and less with how much weight you can lift, or your ability to run, or how well you can body-check someone. I would define these recreations into one of two categories: "sports" (contests that take a given amount of physical conditioning to master) and "games" (contests that take more mental conditioning than physical to master). For the sake of selecting skills for a PC, I'd put Sports as an Athletics specialty, and Billiards as a Hobby skill (or a specialization of such).

By the way, I did learn proper English from a book, which told me to use "I" before "E", except after "C", and a bunch of other stuff the teacher tried to drill into my head (and succeeded, more or less, in most of it). Oh, there are specialites that you don't learn in school, like ghetto slang and "technobabble", but I picked these up after the basic skill was known.

A person COULD learn English without book-learning, but it'd hardly be of the same quality as someone who went through formal grammar training.

That is why languages in Shadowrun are based on Intelligence.

Geez, did you even try to think about what you were writing with this last post, or did you just get something stuck in your craw and choose to take it out on me?

You do realize that you're whole "I've fired guns before you haven't" rant said exactly what Spookymonster meant (ie Knowing how to do something doesn't mean you can actually do it).

Maybe you should heed your own implied advice, and think before you post...





Anywho... another classic example of why there should be an active skill required (which one's really up to the GM) to play pool: who here's seen the part in T2 where Arnie drives the 18 wheeler? It shows right on screen how to shift gears right? Alright then... having just watched that movie, and never having driven a standard before... you go out and drive that truck...

Which, again, is why it would be used as a Complimentary Skill.

Those are things I see as taking Quickness, not Body. And since Athletics is based off of Body, it doesn't really make much sense for use in pool or billiards...

Cool concept, though. Consider it swiped!

Careful, you're going to cause the entire breakdown of the SR system.

It's like Biotech covering the entire range of possible medical skills.

Does it make sense compared to the massive specialization of firearms? I.E. Handguns, SMGs, Assault rifles and so on. Compare that again to the streamlining of Etiquette into one generic skill.

It's just an aspect of SR -- it doesn't make a massive amount of logical sense, but it's how the system is structured. If it particularly offends you, house rule it. Otherwise you'll be tweaking the entire system.

-Siege