Err, this doesn't offend me at all. As previously mentioned, Athletics (Baseball) is just like any other specialization. You only get the extra dice when using Athletics in reference to a baseball situation, nothing else. Throwing the ball or hitting the ball are not uses of Athletics, but Throwing Weapons and Clubs. And, as previously mentioned, it's exactly the same thing as how Pistols (Ares Predator) doesn't do you a lick of good if you're trying to build or repair an Ares Predator; you need Pistols B/R (Ares Predator) to do that. Even though they both revolve around the exact... same... thing.

You guys are the ones advocating a house ruling.

Actually, I haven't advocated a fix one way or the other.

However, "Handgun" as such does not duplicate the skills necessary to fix, repair and modify handguns, hence "B/R handgun."

Someone with a specialization of B/R Handgun (Ares Predator) 4/6 would have more dice with his specialization, but it wouldn't prevent him from working on Colt Manhunters, for example.

As for offending, I meant that if one particular logical inconsistency bothered you (for whatever reason), house rule it so it doesn't bother you. But SR is rife with such mechanical oddities.

-Siege

So are you saying that I was saying Athletics (Billiards) prevents someone from running the bases in Baseball, or Throwing Weapons (Cue Balls) prevents someone from throwing a baseball? Not sure how you got anything like that from what I said...

And trust me, I never need to be reminded that I can house rule something. I'm just pointing out that in this case, I don't need to house rule anything. The rules, as written, support the majority of what I've been saying in this thread.

To be fair, SR's biotech is a lot more about knowing how to use the tools than about knowing the specific medical proceedures. With all of the high tech gadgetry, many medics are outskilled by their equipment in the first place.

The medicine skill might be the one you should complain about

When (if) I get to play Shadowrun and not just GM, I'm going to give all my characters the Knowledge skill "Quantum Physics" because everything is directly affected by it in a significant degree.

If the whole pool thing became an issue in my games, I'd make it a whole new active skill, linked to Reaction or Intelligence. The reasoning being that I don't think someone who is extremely good at playing pool will automatically be any better at running or jumping, or fighting with a staff or a club. I don't see a person's skill at pool being applicable to just about anything else, at least not on the scale that making it a Specialization of any canon Active skill would suggest.

Just my 0.02.

Once again, as per the rules and JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SKILL IN THE GAME, a skill in Athletics (Sport of Choice) means you get the bonus dice when using Athletics during a baseball game. >>>THROWING<<< a ball is not a use of Athletics any more than >>>THROWING<<< a grenade is. Hitting a ball with a >>>CLUB<<< is no different than hitting anything else with a >>>CLUB<<< as far as the rules are concerned. Hence the names of the THROWING WEAPONS and CLUBS skills. Because you THROW things with Throwing Weapons and you hit things with a CLUB with Clubs. Really tough concept to grasp, I know.

At most, Athletics might give you complimentary dice when playing a sport, but that's as far as it would go, and it would depend entirely upon the sport at hand.

You claim that Clubs and Throwing Weapons can't POSSIBLY include anything beyond weaponry, yet expect people to buy that Athletics is the uber-powerful skill that encompasses everything under the sun. Not just things like Swimming, Running, Jumping, and Climbing, but also Throwing things, hitting things with a Club, and everything else ever conceived of by man to be a "sport?" Even though the rules are clear that a specialization of Athletics in a sport only applies to actual uses of Athletics (meaning, no other skill applies) when taking part in the specialization you have chosen?

What's next? You get to use Athletics when parachuting, but only as long as you're doing it for fun and recreation? How about Diving? Dwarf-tossing is obviously a use of Athletics despite it clearly being a Throwing Weapons skill in CC (as is a baseball, but fuck hard proof to the contrary of your points). Ooh, Nascar and other types of racing are sports, so YAY! it replaces vehicle skills, too. Oh, and hey, you have boxing and martial arts as sports, as well as fencing and the like. No need to bother with Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts or Edged Weapons anymore, either! Then you have skeet shooting and other forms of competition shooting, so bye bye several Firearms Skills. All hail the mighty Athletics skill.

It is pretty dumb to say that thrown weapon experts are also automatically great at psyching out batters with knuckleballs and sliders, though. I don't think that Rafael can hit a home run any better than the other Ninja Turtles, either.

I still say the skill should just be "Baseball", not weapons training or anything else.

It's a lot easier to take Throwing Weapons 4 (Baseball than it is Throwing Weapons 8, and the former is definitely what an all-star baseball pitcher would be at the very least. Most professional pitchers would probably just be Throwing Weapons 3 (Baseball 6) or there about.

In other words, it's a lot easier to be a professional pitcher than it is to be an expert at all thrown weapons. In the latter case, you've done every bit as much training as the pitcher, but you focused on *all* aspects of throwing things aggressively, and the Karma investment shows it.

Every bit of Karma that the general thrower guy put into Throwing Weapons 6, the pitcher probably put into the Baseball Pitches knowledge skill (or something similar; maybe Psychology (Baseball) or whatever else you think is appropriate), which would be used to compliment his pitching. That's something the general thrower guy doesn't get.

So no, a generic Throwing Weapons specialist will still pale compared to a baseball pitcher of the same skill level, because their skill levels wouldn't be the same; the pitcher would be a superior thrower of baseballs while the generalist would be better with knives, grenades, etc. Despite both having an effective skill level of 8 in Throwing Weapons.

Example: Assuming a Strength and Intelligence of 6 for both (which is not body-builder size; that would be 9-11), the Throwing Weapons specialist would have spent 60 Karma for his Throwing Skills 8 while the pitcher only spent 26 Karma on Throwing Weapons (Baseballs), leaving him 34 Karma for the Baseball Pitches 7 skill with 3 Good Karma left over.

It's one of the coolest things about Shadowrun's skill system.

And does anyone here really think Babe Ruth was a fantastic runner, swimmer, jumper, pole-vaulter, and climber?

I'm with Dr F on the fact that athletics, as a single skill, should not perform every single aspect of every sport. I don't think a character with throwing weapons would make the best pitcher either, unless he was good at baseball. The tricks of how to do different throws (knuckleballs etc), however, could be likened to a knowledge skill.

It all depends on what your GM lets you do. I would let someone with the athletics skill do anything with it that was not better covered by another skill (possibly default to athletics at a penalty if I feel kind)

I wonder why they have athletics able to specialize by specific sport? Instead, rule lawyer an abstract concept so that it gets so twisted it's silly.

Check Shadowbeat for skills of a professional athlete, if it disagrees with you, you can ignore it because it's second edition, and dwarf tossing is third edeition.

What skills would a baseball player need? Football? Hockey? Basketball?

According to DF, Athletics is a small part of being an athlete.

First of all, they have a specific sport as a specialization of Athletics because many sports do use Athletics. In baseball, it comes into play in a major way when running the bases, trying to steal a base, and catching a ball. In no way does it make it the only skill used anymore than Edged Weapons (Knives) is used to throw a knife. But according to you, since Knives is a specializatino of Edged Weapons, that's the only skill you need.

Second, Shadowbeat is a 1st Edition sourcebook.

Third, according to your take, sports found in Shadowbeat such as Combat Biking would only use Athletics, too. Bikes? No need according to you. Shotguns? No need. Clubs? No need. Whips? No need. Polearms? No need. And since Urbal Brawl is a sport, you wouldn't ever need to have any other skill at all, as it's basically Shadowrun-made-commercial. Unfortunately, they don't list stats for any athletes in there, nor do they ever say that Athletics is the only skill used.

Four, even if they did, 1st and 2nd Edition had a completely different style of skill system than 3rd Edition. Firearms, for instance, covered *every* firearm; pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and etc. They also didn't have Complimentary Skills as far as I know, and they definately didn't have Knowledge Skills.

Fifth, and once again, 3rd Edition does specifically address Baseball. It's a use of Throwing Weapons skill. Whether you want to accept it or not, it's a canonical fact now.

Sixth, what skills would a ball player need? Athletics and Clubs are the two major ones, with Thrown Weapons being only average-to-good for everyone but the pitcher. They'd then have a few Knowledge Skills pertaining to their particular specialty. But you're right, that's silly. Only people with the occupation of "Shadowrunner" should ever need more than one skill on their job.

Seventh, some sports truly do rely much more heavily on Athletics than any other skill, such as many Track & Field events. Shotputting would not be one of them, but Sprinting and High Jumping would.

Eighth, as mentioned above, a professional pitcher (or hitter with Clubs) who spends exactly the same amount of Karma on Throwing Weapons (Baseball) is going to be a superior pitcher compared to a generalist in Throwing Weapons. By almost about 50% better. Yet the generalist is still going to throw knives, hatchets, and spears much better than the pitcher. That's how Shadowrun's skill system works.