 Cyberzombies..., ...Metamagic and Foci? |
 Sep 9 2007, 08:01 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,054  |
According to Augmentation, Cyberzombies gain a permanent magic of one. Which has led to two game related questions:
1: Can Cyberzombies bind Weapon Foci for use against spirits? and, 2: Can Cyberzombies initiate in order to learn meta-magic, even if they can not cast spells, learn adept powers, or raise their magic attribute? Some things that off the top of my head might be useful, and thus worth the cost: Perception based abilities like Psychometry and Divining. Some modified form of Shielding to confine their astral hazing effect to their own aura. And Centering that helpes to recover from damage/resist the negative effects of being a Cyberzombie. AFE :nuyen: |
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Sep 9 2007, 08:08 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
No and No. It's best to think of their Magic rating as a "virtual" rating or a mere technicality because that's essentially what it is. Cyberzombies cannot have active magical capabilities.
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Sep 9 2007, 08:12 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,054 |
Also, can they learn the Aura reading skill?
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Sep 9 2007, 08:50 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes. Any Awakened character -- which includes Ghouls and other Dual-Natured creatures (SR4 p. 40) -- can bind themselves to any type of focus (SR4 pp. 190-191), and Weapon Foci require no special Magical Skills or abilities to use. They can only bind a number of foci equal to the Magic attribute, however, and I believe somewhere it mentions the consequences of addiction if the Force of your foci exceed twice your Magic attribute, though I'm not sure where that text is. Augmentation (p. 157) even specifically states that they awaken.
Initiation and metamagic are both likewise open to any Awakened character (SM p. 50 and p. 52). However, some techniques are restricted to certain types of Awakened characters, such as Adept Centering being only available to Adepts. Several also require a specific Magical Skill to use which is not available to most Cyberzombies. Psychometry requires Assensing and Divining requires Arcana. I didn't see any mention after a quick scan of the Cyberzombie rules that state that Cyberzombies have access to either of those Magical Skills. Psychometry might be doable, though you would have to use the defaulting rules each time you attempted to use it. Divining would not as it actively requires you to use Arcana as part of its abilities. Note that while they can initiative, they cannot raise their Magic attribute by any means. The number of metamagic techniques and initiation grades are limited by their Magic as well. |
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Sep 9 2007, 09:10 AM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Arcana is available to any mundane who bothers to audit a spell design night class at MIT&T.
Assensing is available to any character who has access to the Astral Plane, which cyberzombies, being dual natured, have. Heck, there are even ways for mundanes to jury rig access to the astral plane so that they could learn assensing. |
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Sep 9 2007, 09:21 AM
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#6
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
SR4 p. 113: Unless otherwise noted in the description, only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills.
Assensing is a Magical Skill. It is iffy however (hence the use of the phrase "might be doable" above) as it does state that characters capable of astral perception can use it, but in the same sentence limits it to characters with those Positive Qualities. Arcana can be used by Awakened and mundane characters, though they cannot "put their formulation into practice" It does say an Initiate can use it with Divining, though, so it may be possible for a Cyberzombie initiate, too. All of it depends on the GM as always. |
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Sep 9 2007, 09:33 AM
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#7
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, it is 'otherwise noted' for Assensing and Astral Combat.
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Sep 9 2007, 09:37 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
See the next line of my post, where the description for Assensing says one thing then immediately quantifies it with a limit to those Positive Qualities in the same sentence.
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Sep 9 2007, 09:54 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Per RAW, sapient critters with a Magic attribute but lacking the magician/adept/mystic adept quality cannot Initiate - there is no statement that they can (ie this is negative evidence). For positive evidence, see BBB page 189:
BBB 189 Only characters with the Magician, Adept or Mystic Adept qualities may initiate. |
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Sep 9 2007, 10:21 AM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If I knew what this mythical "BBB" was, I'd look up your reference. However, I did find a very similar rule on the same page of SR4. A later book, Street Magic (p. 50), only mentions Awakened characters though I don't see any particular reason the SR4 reference would be overwritten by it. Though it could just as easily do so.
That said, nothing stops a Cyberzombie or anyone else from having any of those Positive Qualities. Didn't see any mention of a Cyberzombie losing them, either, though I could have missed it. And as previously mentioned, it's always up to the GM. |
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Sep 9 2007, 10:43 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Kinda helps that they're the same book, since BBB is a acronym for the core rulebook of the edition at hand, and has been for many years :rotfl: |
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Sep 9 2007, 10:46 AM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Feel free to show me a single book reference that uses it.
My personal belief is that this mythical "BBB" is where one also finds the equally mythical "Physad" and numerous other make-believe constructs people like to pull out of their nether regions on the forums. |
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Sep 9 2007, 10:52 AM
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#13
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Orignally, it was a synonym for the LE of SR3, but since the nowadays the main rulebook of SR4 is commonly nicknamed BBB too. |
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Sep 9 2007, 10:55 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Ah another pointless fight - I think not :P Suffice to say BBB is an acronym the fan community came up with years ago (hint - it stands for "Big Blue Book" or "Big Black Book" depending on which edition you're talking about). Likewise, "physad" is short for physical adept, which is what adepts were called back in 1st and 2nd edition. Hardly mythical, but in fact fan slang. Ask anyone who's been around and online for more than one edition of this game and I'm sure you'll hear the same.
Ciao! :rotfl: |
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Sep 9 2007, 11:01 AM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Ah ha, so my theory was right. It is a make-believe construct people pull out of their nether regions on the forums. Imagine that. I think I'll keep using the real book references, though, so everyone knows exactly where to look instead of trying to puzzle it out. Especially in the archives.
I'll be sure to do that, though it'll be tricky to find someone who's been around longer than you. |
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Sep 9 2007, 11:16 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
That's nice :D "When in Rome..."
Hardly - there's tons more people that have been here (and other places) longer than me, although this account's join date doesn't accurately reflect my net presence. I was just answering your question, since you obviously didn't know the answers (otherwise you wouldn't have asked). Have a nice day! :wobble: |
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Sep 9 2007, 12:13 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
It's completely tangential to the discussion at hand, but BBB is an acronym that popped up on the SHADOWRN-L Bitnet mailing list around 1991 or so. It's just a Shadowrun specific appreviation, much like IMO.
BABY refers to the SR3 LE (Big And Black Yearbook). PhysAd was the common abbreviation for the SR1 term "Phsyical Adept." |
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Sep 9 2007, 12:30 PM
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#18
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
By RAW:
Mundanes that become cyberzombies cannot initiate, use Magic skills, etc, until they get a Quality that enables them to do so. Awakened who become cyberzombies can initiate and use Magic skills, because the process of being a CZ does not remove those Qualities. |
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Sep 9 2007, 02:16 PM
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#19
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Always remember that the rules state (in AUG) that cyberzombies can never increase their magic rating.
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Sep 9 2007, 02:26 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 9-December 06 From: the Maaatlock-Expressway! Member No.: 10,326 |
Being unable to get a copy of AUG until I get to sort my Paypal account out (word of advice: never set up an account after a full night of boozing; no matter how much sense that password made to you then, odds are you will not be able to remember it later...), and not knowing whether any rules from the old Cybertechnology would still apply even if I could be arsed now to fetch it from the attic...
just one question: wouldn't somebody with the Adept or Magician qualities burn out anyway due to essence (and the accompanying magic-)-loss caused by the cybermantic procedure? The way I understood things from the discussions here, their new Magic rating of 1 doesn't actually make them "Magicians", or does it? |
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Sep 9 2007, 03:02 PM
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#21
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If you weren't burnout before the procedure, evidently the cybermantic procedure only reduces the Magic to 1; not reduce to 0, then increased to 1. If you didn't have Magic, then you get 1.
So no, it doesn't but it doesn't matter. Which was the point of my post if you had read between the lines. |
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Sep 9 2007, 04:48 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,532 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 769 |
By that logic though... Dragons... even great dragons can't initiate... The critters in the SR4 rulebook say nothing about them having any postitive qualities. |
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Sep 9 2007, 05:12 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 9-December 06 From: the Maaatlock-Expressway! Member No.: 10,326 |
Does that qualify? |
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Sep 9 2007, 09:43 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Cyberzombies are dual natured, which means they have astral perception, which means they can learn Assensing.
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Sep 10 2007, 05:21 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
As I understand it, it goes like this for a magician turned cyberzombie: Magician gets cyber -> Essence goes below 1 -> Magic attribute becomes 0 (burnout) -> magician gets more cyber, becomes a cyberzombie -> Magician gets negative Essence, but a Magic att of 1. This is the point where I respectfully disagree with Toturi: IMO cyberzombie burnouts cannot use Magic skills (aside from Assensing and Astral Combat), largely due to this phrase: SR4 pg 164 If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer perform any kind of magic. Th e magician has “burned out,� losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills. Of course, that was before they gave cyberzombies a Magic att (bad move IMO), so something could have changed in the cybermantic procedure (akin to the Aleph Society's spirit pact perhaps) to change this. ---- In regards to dragons, they are all noted as having the Sorcery skill group as well. Nuff said. |
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