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Anythingforenoughnuyen
According to Augmentation, Cyberzombies gain a permanent magic of one. Which has led to two game related questions:

1: Can Cyberzombies bind Weapon Foci for use against spirits?

and,

2: Can Cyberzombies initiate in order to learn meta-magic, even if they can not cast spells, learn adept powers, or raise their magic attribute? Some things that off the top of my head might be useful, and thus worth the cost: Perception based abilities like Psychometry and Divining. Some modified form of Shielding to confine their astral hazing effect to their own aura. And Centering that helpes to recover from damage/resist the negative effects of being a Cyberzombie.

AFE nuyen.gif
NightmareX
No and No. It's best to think of their Magic rating as a "virtual" rating or a mere technicality because that's essentially what it is. Cyberzombies cannot have active magical capabilities.
Anythingforenoughnuyen
Also, can they learn the Aura reading skill?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Anythingforenoughnuyen)
1: Can Cyberzombies bind Weapon Foci for use against spirits?

Yes. Any Awakened character -- which includes Ghouls and other Dual-Natured creatures (SR4 p. 40) -- can bind themselves to any type of focus (SR4 pp. 190-191), and Weapon Foci require no special Magical Skills or abilities to use. They can only bind a number of foci equal to the Magic attribute, however, and I believe somewhere it mentions the consequences of addiction if the Force of your foci exceed twice your Magic attribute, though I'm not sure where that text is.

Augmentation (p. 157) even specifically states that they awaken.

QUOTE
2:  Can Cyberzombies initiate in order to learn meta-magic, even if they can not cast spells, learn adept powers, or raise their magic attribute?  Some things that off the top of my head might be useful, and thus worth the cost:  Perception based abilities like Psychometry and Divining.  Some modified form of Shielding to confine their astral hazing effect to their own aura.  And Centering that helpes to recover from damage/resist the negative effects of being a Cyberzombie.

Initiation and metamagic are both likewise open to any Awakened character (SM p. 50 and p. 52). However, some techniques are restricted to certain types of Awakened characters, such as Adept Centering being only available to Adepts. Several also require a specific Magical Skill to use which is not available to most Cyberzombies. Psychometry requires Assensing and Divining requires Arcana. I didn't see any mention after a quick scan of the Cyberzombie rules that state that Cyberzombies have access to either of those Magical Skills. Psychometry might be doable, though you would have to use the defaulting rules each time you attempted to use it. Divining would not as it actively requires you to use Arcana as part of its abilities.

Note that while they can initiative, they cannot raise their Magic attribute by any means. The number of metamagic techniques and initiation grades are limited by their Magic as well.
hyzmarca
Arcana is available to any mundane who bothers to audit a spell design night class at MIT&T.
Assensing is available to any character who has access to the Astral Plane, which cyberzombies, being dual natured, have. Heck, there are even ways for mundanes to jury rig access to the astral plane so that they could learn assensing.

Ol' Scratch
SR4 p. 113: Unless otherwise noted in the description, only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills.

Assensing is a Magical Skill. It is iffy however (hence the use of the phrase "might be doable" above) as it does state that characters capable of astral perception can use it, but in the same sentence limits it to characters with those Positive Qualities.

Arcana can be used by Awakened and mundane characters, though they cannot "put their formulation into practice" It does say an Initiate can use it with Divining, though, so it may be possible for a Cyberzombie initiate, too.

All of it depends on the GM as always.
Rotbart van Dainig
Well, it is 'otherwise noted' for Assensing and Astral Combat.
Ol' Scratch
See the next line of my post, where the description for Assensing says one thing then immediately quantifies it with a limit to those Positive Qualities in the same sentence.
NightmareX
Per RAW, sapient critters with a Magic attribute but lacking the magician/adept/mystic adept quality cannot Initiate - there is no statement that they can (ie this is negative evidence). For positive evidence, see BBB page 189:

BBB 189
Only characters with the Magician, Adept or Mystic Adept qualities may initiate.

Ol' Scratch
If I knew what this mythical "BBB" was, I'd look up your reference. However, I did find a very similar rule on the same page of SR4. A later book, Street Magic (p. 50), only mentions Awakened characters though I don't see any particular reason the SR4 reference would be overwritten by it. Though it could just as easily do so.

That said, nothing stops a Cyberzombie or anyone else from having any of those Positive Qualities. Didn't see any mention of a Cyberzombie losing them, either, though I could have missed it.

And as previously mentioned, it's always up to the GM.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
If I knew what this mythical "BBB" was, I'd look up your reference.  However, I did find a very similar rule on the same page of SR4.

Kinda helps that they're the same book, since BBB is a acronym for the core rulebook of the edition at hand, and has been for many years rotfl.gif
Ol' Scratch
Feel free to show me a single book reference that uses it.

My personal belief is that this mythical "BBB" is where one also finds the equally mythical "Physad" and numerous other make-believe constructs people like to pull out of their nether regions on the forums.
Grinder
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
If I knew what this mythical "BBB" was

Orignally, it was a synonym for the LE of SR3, but since the nowadays the main rulebook of SR4 is commonly nicknamed BBB too.
NightmareX
Ah another pointless fight - I think not nyahnyah.gif Suffice to say BBB is an acronym the fan community came up with years ago (hint - it stands for "Big Blue Book" or "Big Black Book" depending on which edition you're talking about). Likewise, "physad" is short for physical adept, which is what adepts were called back in 1st and 2nd edition. Hardly mythical, but in fact fan slang. Ask anyone who's been around and online for more than one edition of this game and I'm sure you'll hear the same.

Ciao! rotfl.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Suffice to say BBB is an acronym the fan community came up with years ago

Ah ha, so my theory was right. It is a make-believe construct people pull out of their nether regions on the forums. Imagine that. I think I'll keep using the real book references, though, so everyone knows exactly where to look instead of trying to puzzle it out. Especially in the archives.

QUOTE
Ask anyone who's been around and online for more than one edition of this game and I'm sure you'll hear the same.

I'll be sure to do that, though it'll be tricky to find someone who's been around longer than you.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Ah ha, so my theory was right.  It is a make-believe construct people pull out of their nether regions on the forums.  Imagine that.  I think I'll keep using the real book references, though, so everyone knows exactly where to look instead of trying to puzzle it out.  Especially in the archives.

That's nice biggrin.gif "When in Rome..."

QUOTE
I'll be sure to do that, though it'll be tricky to find someone who's been around longer than you.

Hardly - there's tons more people that have been here (and other places) longer than me, although this account's join date doesn't accurately reflect my net presence. I was just answering your question, since you obviously didn't know the answers (otherwise you wouldn't have asked).

Have a nice day! wobble.gif
the_dunner
It's completely tangential to the discussion at hand, but BBB is an acronym that popped up on the SHADOWRN-L Bitnet mailing list around 1991 or so. It's just a Shadowrun specific appreviation, much like IMO.

BABY refers to the SR3 LE (Big And Black Yearbook).

PhysAd was the common abbreviation for the SR1 term "Phsyical Adept."
toturi
By RAW:

Mundanes that become cyberzombies cannot initiate, use Magic skills, etc, until they get a Quality that enables them to do so.

Awakened who become cyberzombies can initiate and use Magic skills, because the process of being a CZ does not remove those Qualities.
Ophis
Always remember that the rules state (in AUG) that cyberzombies can never increase their magic rating.
Naysayer
Being unable to get a copy of AUG until I get to sort my Paypal account out (word of advice: never set up an account after a full night of boozing; no matter how much sense that password made to you then, odds are you will not be able to remember it later...), and not knowing whether any rules from the old Cybertechnology would still apply even if I could be arsed now to fetch it from the attic...
just one question: wouldn't somebody with the Adept or Magician qualities burn out anyway due to essence (and the accompanying magic-)-loss caused by the cybermantic procedure?
The way I understood things from the discussions here, their new Magic rating of 1 doesn't actually make them "Magicians", or does it?
toturi
If you weren't burnout before the procedure, evidently the cybermantic procedure only reduces the Magic to 1; not reduce to 0, then increased to 1. If you didn't have Magic, then you get 1.
QUOTE
The way I understood things from the discussions here, their new Magic rating of 1 doesn't actually make them "Magicians", or does it?

So no, it doesn't but it doesn't matter. Which was the point of my post if you had read between the lines.
imperialus
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Per RAW, sapient critters with a Magic attribute but lacking the magician/adept/mystic adept quality cannot Initiate - there is no statement that they can (ie this is negative evidence). For positive evidence, see BBB page 189:

BBB 189
Only characters with the Magician, Adept or Mystic Adept qualities may initiate.

By that logic though... Dragons... even great dragons can't initiate... The critters in the SR4 rulebook say nothing about them having any postitive qualities.
Naysayer
QUOTE (SR4 pdf @ p296)
Common Powers
Dragons are all capable and powerful magicians...


Does that qualify?
Buster
Cyberzombies are dual natured, which means they have astral perception, which means they can learn Assensing.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Naysayer)
wouldn't somebody with the Adept or Magician qualities burn out anyway due to essence (and the accompanying magic-)-loss caused by the cybermantic procedure?
The way I understood things from the discussions here, their new Magic rating of 1 doesn't actually make them "Magicians", or does it?

As I understand it, it goes like this for a magician turned cyberzombie:

Magician gets cyber -> Essence goes below 1 -> Magic attribute becomes 0 (burnout) -> magician gets more cyber, becomes a cyberzombie -> Magician gets negative Essence, but a Magic att of 1.

This is the point where I respectfully disagree with Toturi: IMO cyberzombie burnouts cannot use Magic skills (aside from Assensing and Astral Combat), largely due to this phrase:

SR4 pg 164
If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer
perform any kind of magic. Th e magician has “burned out,?
losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She
retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to
use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.


Of course, that was before they gave cyberzombies a Magic att (bad move IMO), so something could have changed in the cybermantic procedure (akin to the Aleph Society's spirit pact perhaps) to change this.

----

In regards to dragons, they are all noted as having the Sorcery skill group as well. Nuff said.
Fortune
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Magician gets cyber -> Essence goes below 1 -> Magic attribute becomes 0 (burnout) -> magician gets more cyber, becomes a cyberzombie -> Magician gets negative Essence, but a Magic att of 1.

The point is that the Cybermantic ritual does not let the Magic drop to 0, as the ritual is being performed at the same time as the implantation that would drop the Magic rating.
imperialus
QUOTE (Naysayer @ Sep 9 2007, 11:12 AM)
QUOTE (SR4 pdf @  p296)
Common Powers
Dragons are all capable and powerful magicians...


Does that qualify?

not if you read the rules literally... In practice, of course it does but using that same logic a GM could design a CZ that has a few awakened type powers. It's all up to the individual GM and what he feels is an appropriate/challanging/interesting NPC for his PC's to encounter. Of course my group tends to play a bit fast and loose with the rules to make an interesting game so your milage may vary.
toturi
QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Naysayer)
wouldn't somebody with the Adept or Magician qualities burn out anyway due to essence (and the accompanying magic-)-loss caused by the cybermantic procedure?
The way I understood things from the discussions here, their new Magic rating of 1 doesn't actually make them "Magicians", or does it?

As I understand it, it goes like this for a magician turned cyberzombie:

Magician gets cyber -> Essence goes below 1 -> Magic attribute becomes 0 (burnout) -> magician gets more cyber, becomes a cyberzombie -> Magician gets negative Essence, but a Magic att of 1.

This is the point where I respectfully disagree with Toturi: IMO cyberzombie burnouts cannot use Magic skills (aside from Assensing and Astral Combat), largely due to this phrase:

SR4 pg 164
If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer
perform any kind of magic. Th e magician has “burned out,?
losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She
retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to
use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.


Of course, that was before they gave cyberzombies a Magic att (bad move IMO), so something could have changed in the cybermantic procedure (akin to the Aleph Society's spirit pact perhaps) to change this.

----

In regards to dragons, they are all noted as having the Sorcery skill group as well. Nuff said.

QUOTE (Myself)
If you weren't burnout before the procedure, evidently the cybermantic procedure only reduces the Magic to 1; not reduce to 0, then increased to 1. If you didn't have Magic, then you get 1.


Nice rules lawyering, except you need to read the relevant section of Augmentation. So no, the Magician's Magic never goes below 1 and so your quote about burning out is moot.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Fortune)
The point is that the Cybermantic ritual does not let the Magic drop to 0, as the ritual is being performed at the same time as the implantation that would drop the Magic rating.

QUOTE (toturi)
Nice rules lawyering, except you need to read the relevant section of Augmentation. So no, the Magician's Magic never goes below 1 and so your quote about burning out is moot.

Ah, you're right both - my apologies, only skimmed the cybermancy section as of yet (reading cover to cover). So logically cyberzombie magicians/whatnot can still cast/conjure/have adept powers. Damn that's weird indifferent.gif I wonder why the devs made this change?
darthmord
Perhaps the Cybermantic rituals have gotten some refinement and now work better than before?

Better is the dire enemy of Good Enough...
farrenj
QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I'll be sure to do that, though it'll be tricky to find someone who's been around longer than you.

Hardly - there's tons more people that have been here (and other places) longer than me, although this account's join date doesn't accurately reflect my net presence. I was just answering your question, since you obviously didn't know the answers (otherwise you wouldn't have asked).

Have a nice day! wobble.gif

I see someone didn't notice Dr. Funk was making fun of them. nyahnyah.gif
Da9iel
Sometimes a logical and straightforward answer is the best response to deflate pointless ironic statements. As long as Doc is acting like a clueless newbie, why not act as if to educate him like one?
NightmareX
QUOTE (farrenj)
I see someone didn't notice Dr. Funk was making fun of them. nyahnyah.gif

Oh, I noticed biggrin.gif But I thought I'd take the high road and "kill" him with kindness, laughing all the way rotfl.gif Plus, what Da9iel said cool.gif
Draconis
Oooo here's where things get interesting. Where's my popcorn?

NightmareX
QUOTE (Draconis)
Oooo here's where things get interesting. Where's my popcorn?

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't intend any further show. You can still have the popcorn though wink.gif
Mr. Croup
Aren't cyberzombies hard enough without the need for magic as well?

Personally, much like some other threads i won't care to name, i think this is another taking the rules by wrote rather than carefully applying real (game) world common sense (yes, we've had that argument before) situation, but to my knowledge, to become a cyberzombie you are actually killed in the procedure. Throughout the cybermantic ritual you are clinicaly dead. when you are dead you have no magic. the ritual then rebinds and traps the spirit against it's will into the dead carcass, that breaths a breath of pseudo-life back into the body. For all intents and purposes you are a walking corpse (hence the immunity to normal weapons). The 1 point of magic is there to show the terrific and terrifying amounts of magic instilled in the new cyberzombie that is keeping him/her together. Once that magic point drops to zero there's nothing keeping zombie boy together anymore and it drops stone dead. I can't remember if the same thing carried over to SR4 but in SR3 there was a type of magical duel that followed the same rules as banishing that could destroy magic in your opponent if you won. I don't see how that couldn't happen to a zombie as you are essentially 'banishing' their spirit from their body (which isn't their body anymore just a vessel for the trapped spirit). However, if that duel isn't in SR4, forget about that.

Simply put, from the game mechanic side of things, it doesn't expressly forbid it anywhere that a cyberzombie could have access to magic but from the standpoint of other rules and previous editions there's not really a fucking chance in hell of a cyberzombie wielding either magic or foci. They are supposed to be flawed and that flaw is the magic that keeps them alive, by turning that flaw into a tool for yet more destruction (because, lets face it, that's all a cyberzombie is good for) you're just fucking game balance in the ear and turning the whole thing into a munchkin wet dream (like they weren't already one of them anyway).
Draconis
QUOTE (Mr. Croup @ Sep 12 2007, 10:33 AM)
Aren't cyberzombies hard enough without the need for magic as well?

Personally, much like some other threads i won't care to name, i think this is another taking the rules by wrote rather than carefully applying real (game) world common sense (yes, we've had that argument before) situation, but to my knowledge, to become a cyberzombie you are actually killed in the procedure.  Throughout the cybermantic ritual you are clinicaly dead.  when you are dead you have no magic.  the ritual then rebinds and traps the spirit against it's will into the dead carcass, that breaths a breath of pseudo-life back into the body.  For all intents and purposes you are a walking corpse (hence the immunity to normal weapons).  The 1 point of magic is there to show the terrific and terrifying amounts of magic instilled in the new cyberzombie that is keeping him/her together.  Once that magic point drops to zero there's nothing keeping zombie boy together anymore and it drops stone dead.  I can't remember if the same thing carried over to SR4 but in SR3 there was a type of magical duel that followed the same rules as banishing that could destroy magic in your opponent if you won.  I don't see how that couldn't happen to a zombie as you are essentially 'banishing' their spirit from their body (which isn't their body anymore just a vessel for the trapped spirit).  However, if that duel isn't in SR4, forget about that.

Simply put, from the game mechanic side of things, it doesn't expressly forbid it anywhere that a cyberzombie could have access to magic but from the standpoint of other rules and previous editions there's not really a fucking chance in hell of a cyberzombie wielding either magic or foci.  They are supposed to be flawed and that flaw is the magic that keeps them alive, by turning that flaw into a tool for yet more destruction (because, lets face it, that's all a cyberzombie is good for) you're just fucking game balance in the ear and turning the whole thing into a munchkin wet dream (like they weren't already one of them anyway).

Bravo. Nice to see someone hits the nail exactly on the head once in awhile.
See wait long enough and somebody will probably say what you're thinking and save you all that typing.

But I know for a fact that you're wrong about the binding and wielding foci part. They can. I'm not saying I'm happy with the idea, i'm certainly not, but it's true.

Oh I'm still actually having the popcorn though and trying not to get butter on the keyboard. wink.gif
Mr. Croup
Oh good lord. Bring on the Cyberzombie with the orichalcum cyberspurs.

Massively unpleasant aside: Here's something terrible to think about, could a shedim take residence in a cyberzombie once the original spirit has departed?

I really hope not...
Draconis
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
Oh good lord. Bring on the Cyberzombie with the orichalcum cyberspurs.

Massively unpleasant aside: Here's something terrible to think about, could a shedim take residence in a cyberzombie once the original spirit has departed?

I really hope not...

In our case it's going to be a laser weapon focus. Worse I think.

Mr. Croup
That would be a fucked up way of getting past the "a firearm can not be a weapon focus unless you are using that firearm as a club" but again only if you view it in respect of taking the rules 100% literally without applying common sense and keeping game balance in mind.

Please tell me there are no rules for laser based cyberweapons in SR4...
Buster
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
Simply put, from the game mechanic side of things, it doesn't expressly forbid it anywhere that a cyberzombie could have access to magic but from the standpoint of other rules and previous editions there's not really a fucking chance in hell of a cyberzombie wielding either magic or foci. They are supposed to be flawed and that flaw is the magic that keeps them alive, by turning that flaw into a tool for yet more destruction (because, lets face it, that's all a cyberzombie is good for) you're just fucking game balance in the ear and turning the whole thing into a munchkin wet dream (like they weren't already one of them anyway).

It's like saying "Oh noes, great dragons are so unbalanced!" I don't think that cyberzombies were ever intended to be munchkins, the book seemed pretty clear that players can only turn themselves into cyberzombies at the GM's whim and no character can start out as a cyberzombie. Cyberzombies are more for end game stuff once you've gotten bored to death with everything else.

Once your game gets to the "OK now two cyberzombies attack you", then I can see where it would be fun to allow players to create their own cyberzombies. Maybe cyberzombies should have been left for a Threats book or the Player's Companion, but that's going to be years away.
toturi
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
Aren't cyberzombies hard enough without the need for magic as well?

Personally, much like some other threads i won't care to name, i think this is another taking the rules by wrote rather than carefully applying real (game) world common sense (yes, we've had that argument before) situation, but to my knowledge, to become a cyberzombie you are actually killed in the procedure. Throughout the cybermantic ritual you are clinicaly dead. when you are dead you have no magic. the ritual then rebinds and traps the spirit against it's will into the dead carcass, that breaths a breath of pseudo-life back into the body. For all intents and purposes you are a walking corpse (hence the immunity to normal weapons). The 1 point of magic is there to show the terrific and terrifying amounts of magic instilled in the new cyberzombie that is keeping him/her together. Once that magic point drops to zero there's nothing keeping zombie boy together anymore and it drops stone dead. I can't remember if the same thing carried over to SR4 but in SR3 there was a type of magical duel that followed the same rules as banishing that could destroy magic in your opponent if you won. I don't see how that couldn't happen to a zombie as you are essentially 'banishing' their spirit from their body (which isn't their body anymore just a vessel for the trapped spirit). However, if that duel isn't in SR4, forget about that.

Simply put, from the game mechanic side of things, it doesn't expressly forbid it anywhere that a cyberzombie could have access to magic but from the standpoint of other rules and previous editions there's not really a fucking chance in hell of a cyberzombie wielding either magic or foci. They are supposed to be flawed and that flaw is the magic that keeps them alive, by turning that flaw into a tool for yet more destruction (because, lets face it, that's all a cyberzombie is good for) you're just fucking game balance in the ear and turning the whole thing into a munchkin wet dream (like they weren't already one of them anyway).

Too. Bad. That. Is. The. RAW. You can always house rule but only the GM can do so.

Especially, since when you are talking about cyberzombies, you are looking at the requirement of an NPC with Corruption metamagic, it is really a GM's plot device, since Corruption is an NPC only metamagic and anyone who has Corruption is a toxic magician under GM control. So in order to have a cyberzombie in game, the GM has to be an accomplice to the act.

Unless you are saying advances in cybermancy cannot be made, I do not see why there can be no progress made in cybermantic techniques. And you are wrong, in SR3, CZs already could use foci. For crying out loud, remember what you are talking about: you are talking about cyberzombies, game balance is already fucked in the ear and since it is the GM has to approve(at least indirectly through his toxic magician NPC), it already is a munchkin's wet dream.

So if you have a cyberzombie in your game, Magic and foci is the least of your worries.
Mr. Croup
I know i've not been around here in a while, but what the fuck does RAW stand for anyways?
Draconis
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Mr. Croup @ Sep 12 2007, 05:33 AM)
Simply put, from the game mechanic side of things, it doesn't expressly forbid it anywhere that a cyberzombie could have access to magic but from the standpoint of other rules and previous editions there's not really a fucking chance in hell of a cyberzombie wielding either magic or foci.  They are supposed to be flawed and that flaw is the magic that keeps them alive, by turning that flaw into a tool for yet more destruction (because, lets face it, that's all a cyberzombie is good for) you're just fucking game balance in the ear and turning the whole thing into a munchkin wet dream (like they weren't already one of them anyway).

It's like saying "Oh noes, great dragons are so unbalanced!" I don't think that cyberzombies were ever intended to be munchkins, the book seemed pretty clear that players can only turn themselves into cyberzombies at the GM's whim and no character can start out as a cyberzombie. Cyberzombies are more for end game stuff once you've gotten bored to death with everything else.

Once your game gets to the "OK now two cyberzombies attack you", then I can see where it would be fun to allow players to create their own cyberzombies. Maybe cyberzombies should have been left for a Threats book or the Player's Companion, but that's going to be years away.

Man, Frank's going to be so disappointed, he was waiting for this to come up for ages.

I hate being second hand info, but he deliberately wrote cyberzombies to be easier to play in this edition. No GM whim needed.

Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
I know i've not been around here in a while, but what the fuck does RAW stand for anyways?

You're supposed to know through psychic powers. See the earlier part of the conversation for more examples.
Draconis
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
I know i've not been around here in a while, but what the fuck does RAW stand for anyways?

Rules as Written. Yes I hate those stupid abbreviations as well.
Mr. Croup
I'm coming to the conclusion that i'm getting old.

I remember asking what BBB was when i first came on this forum and the term hadn't been around that long as i recall. The way i see it is this, the gift of language is there to be used in it's entirety, i don't even use text speak on my mobile phone.

As to using the Rules As Written - i won't bother entering another argument like that again except to re-state my position that you cannot use the rules as written without first putting them through the filter of common sense in regards to game reality. Otherwise it's all just rolling dice and ticking off boxes whilst plugging your way through a giant maths machine.
Draconis
QUOTE (Mr. Croup @ Sep 12 2007, 11:39 AM)
I'm coming to the conclusion that i'm getting old.

I remember asking what BBB was when i first came on this forum and the term hadn't been around that long as i recall.  The way i see it is this, the gift of language is there to be used in it's entirety, i don't even use text speak on my mobile phone.

As to using the Rules As Written -  i won't bother entering another argument like that again except to re-state my position that you cannot use the rules as written without first putting them through the filter of common sense in regards to game reality.  Otherwise it's all just rolling dice and ticking off boxes whilst plugging your way through a giant maths machine.

You're not the only one. I dislike the butchering of language as well.

But anyway, toturi pimping the rules as written? I never would have conceived of such. Oh wait there's that thread where rules override common sense. nyahnyah.gif
How's those rabbits doing toturi?

Btw Mr. Croup why are you named after a part on a horse? Not that I mind, I like equines.
toturi
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
As to using the Rules As Written - i won't bother entering another argument like that again except to re-state my position that you cannot use the rules as written without first putting them through the filter of common sense in regards to game reality. Otherwise it's all just rolling dice and ticking off boxes whilst plugging your way through a giant maths machine.

Even if that were true, then it begs the question: whose common sense should we use? Yours? If it is the GM's, then there already is a rule as written for that.
QUOTE
How's those rabbits doing toturi?

I won't know. They aren't in my ass. Ask the guy who came up with that example, they're probably in his ass.
Mr. Croup
I've just looked through the cybermancy rules again over my lunch break and guess what? Nowhere does it say that cyberzombies get access to magic for having a magic rating of 1 - it does say on page 157 of augmentation under Dual Nature:

QUOTE
The fact that the body is now effectively possessed by it's original spirit meanst that a cyberzombie becomes, in some sense, a magical entity.  Accordingly, upon awakening to her new dual existence, a cyberzombie gains a magic attribute of 1. ...


It does not say you gain access to magic or metamagic especially when you consider that a cyberzombie is a walking background count of 4 which makes using magic almost bloody pointless whilst a cyberzombie anyway.

Similarly never does it say anywhere that they awaken except to say that they awaken from stasis (p.156 of augmentation).

Also the rules, as written, do not state that a magic user loses access to magic when becoming a cyber zombie and the rules state that their magic attribute is reduced to 1. If we're going by the rules as written, then sure, if you think a cyberzombie can pull off big mojo with a magic rating of one and sitting in a background count of 4 without his head exploding, feel free. Similarly never expect to enter astral space in astral form, you're astral form is forever anchored to your body, undo those bonds and it's good night (as the rules state, they're trapped between this world and the astral plane).

However, that does not mean (and the rules, as written, do not say) mundane characters get any access to magic or metamagic as a result of developing a magic attribute of 1.

So in actual fact when most people say "It's the RAW" (no toturi, i'm not singleing you out so please don't kick off) a lot of the time they are just seeing what's not written and assuming that because it doesn't say that you can't do something, then you can. By the RAW, it also doesn't say that awakened characters retain access to magic either. So the whole thing is rather ambiguous really, when just seeing it as the rules as written, isn't it?

So, who wants to argue with the rules as written? Because they don't have any concrete answers when taken at face value as far as i can see.

@draconis: Mr. Croup (pronounced croop) is a character from Neverwhere along with his 'brother' Mr. Vandemar, if you haven't seen it or read the book, i suggest you do so.
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