What's more, what metamagic techniques could a cyberzombie actually have and make use of? Flexible Signature's a no go, due to roving domain. Masking is dead in the water based on the fact that the CZ is always going to suck at the roll. And also has a roving domain. Cleansing? Maybe.
Generally, though, CZs would totally and utterly blow at any metamagic they had.
Full Version: Cyberzombies...
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| What's more, what metamagic techniques could a cyberzombie actually have and make use of? Flexible Signature's a no go, due to roving domain. Masking is dead in the water based on the fact that the CZ is always going to suck at the roll. And also has a roving domain. Cleansing? Maybe. Generally, though, CZs would totally and utterly blow at any metamagic they had. |
I'm fond of Sacrifice myself, as it is uncapped. Since the limit on Pokemonning spirits is drain and drain alone and Sacrifice allows you to bypass virtually limitless quantities of drain, the Cheese Stands Alone.
-Frank
So the great cheese of a cyberzombie just adds more cheese by going after some invoked great form blood spirit ally? Works for me.
Though I will have to admit... I did have a player at one point who would honestly shrug his shoulders and carry on with the beat down. He honestly never ran into something that couldn't be overcome by a suitable amount of firepower and / or explosives.
I don't think this would even faze him... and his characters were strictly made by the book.
Though I will have to admit... I did have a player at one point who would honestly shrug his shoulders and carry on with the beat down. He honestly never ran into something that couldn't be overcome by a suitable amount of firepower and / or explosives.
I don't think this would even faze him... and his characters were strictly made by the book.
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| So the great cheese of a cyberzombie just adds more cheese by going after some invoked great form blood spirit ally? |
Not enough metamagics.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Since a Cyberzombie can't summon anything bigger than a Force 2 Ally spirit, I regard the two paths to power as being largely incompatible. -Frank |
Well, even just assuming that, He can get himself a force 2 ally spirit, who can overcast to force 4 spells, which is getting somewhere in the neighborhood of useful.
On the other hand, what happens if a mage who already has a force 6 ally spirit then goes cyberzombie?
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| What's more, what metamagic techniques could a cyberzombie actually have and make use of? Flexible Signature's a no go, due to roving domain. Masking is dead in the water based on the fact that the CZ is always going to suck at the roll. And also has a roving domain. Cleansing? Maybe. Generally, though, CZs would totally and utterly blow at any metamagic they had. |
Masking and Cleansing would be critical for hiding his true nature and to hide from people trying to track him.
Yeah, but neither of those can hide his true nature due to the roving domain. I would liken it to putting an Abe Lincoln beard on a guy in powered armor.
"Oh, hey, he's just a regular joe with 0 mana. And a roving warp attached to him. And ... more ware than meat.... wait, what?"
"Oh, hey, he's just a regular joe with 0 mana. And a roving warp attached to him. And ... more ware than meat.... wait, what?"
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 18 2007, 04:28 AM) | ||
Not enough metamagics. |
A toxic blood spirit or toxic ally spirit is possible. The cyberzombie has to do it before he went under though.
Great form + blood spirit = No. Metamagics - not compatible.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Yeah, but neither of those can hide his true nature due to the roving domain. I would liken it to putting an Abe Lincoln beard on a guy in powered armor. "Oh, hey, he's just a regular joe with 0 mana. And a roving warp attached to him. And ... more ware than meat.... wait, what?" |
Masking hides his nature (he can even look like a mundane if he feels like it), Cleansing removes his background count.
What is the exact wording for Magic limiting initiation? Does it apply retroactively? If the CZ were to initiate 3 times before he went under, does he lose 1 initiation grade? And if he had 3 metamagics, does he lose one of them?
Buster:
Cleansing removes his background count until he moves. Since you cleanse areas, not people, the background count the CZ generates will supplant any count for the area he's in. He'd have to cleanse and then stay put, if he wanted to hide it.
Masking does allow you to do all you said, yes, but it doesn't hide his nature. It doesn't allow him to hide his cyberware, and it doesn't hide the fact that he's at the center of a hefty mana wackiness unless he's cleansed and stayed in the same area. Plus his diepoll for the masking roll is gonna suck.
So yeah, he could do it, but he'd have to stay put and would suck at hiding hisself. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's laughable at best. Being hoodwinked by a masking, cleansing cyberzombie means you deserve to get shot in the face.
Cleansing removes his background count until he moves. Since you cleanse areas, not people, the background count the CZ generates will supplant any count for the area he's in. He'd have to cleanse and then stay put, if he wanted to hide it.
Masking does allow you to do all you said, yes, but it doesn't hide his nature. It doesn't allow him to hide his cyberware, and it doesn't hide the fact that he's at the center of a hefty mana wackiness unless he's cleansed and stayed in the same area. Plus his diepoll for the masking roll is gonna suck.
So yeah, he could do it, but he'd have to stay put and would suck at hiding hisself. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's laughable at best. Being hoodwinked by a masking, cleansing cyberzombie means you deserve to get shot in the face.
| QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 17 2007, 08:53 PM) |
| What is the exact wording for Magic limiting initiation? Does it apply retroactively? If the CZ were to initiate 3 times before he went under, does he lose 1 initiation grade? And if he had 3 metamagics, does he lose one of them? |
EDIT:
| QUOTE |
| A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it. |
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||||
A toxic blood spirit or toxic ally spirit is possible. The cyberzombie has to do it before he went under though. Great form + blood spirit = No. Metamagics - not compatible. Ally spirit + blood spirit = No. Blood spirit is not normal, even for a blood mage. |
All SR4 Blood Spirits are Great Forms. Blood Invoking is a form of Invoking. They simply lack the Great Form Powers.
It is mechanically possible to Invoke an Ally. The Invoking is done during the Binding ritual and SR4 Allies are Bound using a Binding ritual
So, technically, a Blood Ally should be possible. Just Blood INoke during the Ally Binding ritual.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| See the next line of my post, where the description for Assensing says one thing then immediately quantifies it with a limit to those Positive Qualities in the same sentence. |
Deep Weed is a Positve Quality. At least that is what High Times quoted Cypress Hill's DJ Muggs as saying.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Sep 17 2007, 05:50 PM) |
| On the other hand, what happens if a mage who already has a force 6 ally spirit then goes cyberzombie? |
Aren't ally spirits freed upon death of the mage? If so it probably depends somewhat on who creates the cyberzombie. If Ordo put them together they died so maybe the ally isn't one anymore. Heavanherds not so much because they use a very different technique. The blood magic cage? *shrug* At least that's my take. However it is left somewhat open. Especially considering that for Ordo the colour paints it as very akin to making the cross-over to a vampire. And the rules are left appropriately open.
| QUOTE (page 156) |
| If the quest is a success, the cybermantic ritual is begun. There are no game mechanics associated with this ritual, and the game- master is to detail it as he prefers. |
Or maybe the ally spirit isn't actually freed permanently when the death isn't permanent. :^)
So what happens if I get my cyberzombie and then slot him up with a personafix. Does he go completely insane anyway. Does it not work? Can I restrain the madness?
Edit: Or, actually, reading the fluff again, they are effectively ON a personafix chip on 'roids?
Edit: Or, actually, reading the fluff again, they are effectively ON a personafix chip on 'roids?
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 18 2007, 05:49 AM) |
| So what happens if I get my cyberzombie and then slot him up with a personafix. Does he go completely insane anyway. Does it not work? Can I restrain the madness? Edit: Or, actually, reading the fluff again, they are effectively ON a personafix chip on 'roids? |
That is what I got from that "psych-report" monologue. The 'personafix' was so prevalent that it couldn't help but show inconsistancies and/or gaps, which begat madness. Sort of like Memento but without the Polaroids. He has access to a large set of facts about his past but doesn't actually 'remember' them or feel them. Thus the reference to philosopher John Locke.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
I'm fond of Sacrifice myself, as it is uncapped. Since the limit on Pokemonning spirits is drain and drain alone and Sacrifice allows you to bypass virtually limitless quantities of drain, the Cheese Stands Alone. -Frank |
Adept Centering can be a (minor, but still useful) metamagic for them, maybe combined with Infusion if you allow Infusion to boost power levels beyond Magic (and I see nothing in the metamagic description that forbids this).
Shielding, for a nega-mage CZ.
Cannibalize and Power Bleed. Only lasts for 1 day, tops, but still.
Sacrificing and Channeling, perhaps? Could be issues with this since there is effectively two spirits possessing the body though...
I just don't feel right about Invoked Allies. Cheese is fun, but that just doesn't seem legal. I coulda sworn that it was specifically nuked from orbit on the board, but I couldn't say for sure.
Here's a fun one for you... mage with too much karma gets a small team of mid-level (6-9) allies, uses them to steal info on blood magic *and* CZs. Blows the karma to rebind them with the resulting knowledge, so that they can turn him into one. He ends up an insane terror aided by (probably) equally insane allies.
At the end of the day, I still think a straight cyberally is easier. For anywhere from a couple hundred thousand to 2-5 million nuyen, you can take a living body (clone, handpicked victim, somebody off the street), chop it up and chrome it out, and then Inhabit with an ally at probably well under 100 karma. If you chrome up the stats right, a F6 cyberally (human) could have 15 for each physical stat (even worse for some races), 6 for each mental stat, skillwires and softs yielding 4-6 skill in every non-magic skill in the entire game, plus the normal ally stuff like a half dozen powers, INW, and casting. Oh, and if you go heavy on the chrome before bringing out the spirit, you can also add upwards of 20 armor that stacks with worn armor.
I'd like to see some simulated duels between similarly-equipped CZs and CAs.
Here's a fun one for you... mage with too much karma gets a small team of mid-level (6-9) allies, uses them to steal info on blood magic *and* CZs. Blows the karma to rebind them with the resulting knowledge, so that they can turn him into one. He ends up an insane terror aided by (probably) equally insane allies.
At the end of the day, I still think a straight cyberally is easier. For anywhere from a couple hundred thousand to 2-5 million nuyen, you can take a living body (clone, handpicked victim, somebody off the street), chop it up and chrome it out, and then Inhabit with an ally at probably well under 100 karma. If you chrome up the stats right, a F6 cyberally (human) could have 15 for each physical stat (even worse for some races), 6 for each mental stat, skillwires and softs yielding 4-6 skill in every non-magic skill in the entire game, plus the normal ally stuff like a half dozen powers, INW, and casting. Oh, and if you go heavy on the chrome before bringing out the spirit, you can also add upwards of 20 armor that stacks with worn armor.
I'd like to see some simulated duels between similarly-equipped CZs and CAs.
| QUOTE |
| I just don't feel right about Invoked Allies. Cheese is fun, but that just doesn't seem legal. I coulda sworn that it was specifically nuked from orbit on the board, but I couldn't say for sure. |
Yeah. When I wrote the section it specifically didn't have a Binding check so that Invoking never applied. Rob editted a binding check back in. And since that binding check is basically a formality I can only assume that it was the intention of the head designer that allies be invokable. I can think of no other reason to bother requiring a binding check for a spirit that won't turn on you even on a critical glitch.
-Frank
Actually, as it stands now, there's a very good reason to force a binding roll... with no ally caps and linear karma cost in RAW, the binding roll is pretty much the only thing other than karma costs that keeps you from getting insanely powerful allies. Or, at least, it can force you to burn edge for them (which is still worth it).
Even so, I think (based on back-of-pad math) that a M8 mage with proper preparation (sustained Body/Will/Drainstat buffs--a F1 ally is great for this--drugs, a good doc standing by, sacrifice/healing or regeneration if you can get it, etc.) could pull off a F16 ally without burning edge (just spending it for re-rolls) most of the time.
Even so, I think (based on back-of-pad math) that a M8 mage with proper preparation (sustained Body/Will/Drainstat buffs--a F1 ally is great for this--drugs, a good doc standing by, sacrifice/healing or regeneration if you can get it, etc.) could pull off a F16 ally without burning edge (just spending it for re-rolls) most of the time.
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