 Say it ain't so!, Bioware costs Essence?! |
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 Sep 15 2007, 03:20 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209  |
Just because it's cyber, doesn't mean it has to be metal, just artificial. And it's not my fault they were published in Augmentation. :) |
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Sep 15 2007, 03:52 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 4-September 07 Member No.: 13,115 |
Well, if you think about it since bioware costs essence now that means that any augmentation (even if it's cultured from your own tissue to prevent rejection) will cost you essence.
So if a shop teach cuts off a finger on accident, it spoils, but has a new one grown from his own tissue and replaced... voila! Essence is lost. Honestly this is stupid, but the way the state it in the book makes it true. Even cultured bioware costs essence even though it grown from your own natural tissues. Kidney, heart, liver... any organ grown in a vat should cost essence. Why? Simple, it's not your natural organ, you weren't born with it, and doctors had to put it in, thus it costs essence, just like bioware. Even if you had it cultured from your own tissues. Sorry Mages... don't drink too hard, it might cost you later down the road. I understand the logic mind you, Bioware is making the body do things that God(?) didn't intend for it to do, but I do not agree that it should cost essence. The old body index system was fine (to a point). I still use it and it permits characters to go 'all natura' and 9 times out of 10, while they may be able to throw down with a CyberedSam for the most part the CyberSam usually has a few distinct advantages. Fights are close, but fair. Optional Rule (Hartbaine's Game): Body Index – Just like Essence the character has a Body Index of 6 (Oh no! One more Attribute! OMGWTFBBQ!) It works just like Essence, drop it as you buy it. You may not 'double dip' effects. If a piece of Cyberware emulates the effects of a piece of Bioware then you must decide which you would like (Cyber or Bio) you may not have both (GM may rule otherwise). Examples of non-compatible items are (but is not limited to): 1. Bone Density & Bone Lacing (both increase body, and grant physical damage in unarmed strikes, the ballistics and impact bonus from bone lacing I feel was not sufficient enough to merit bone lacing completely separate from bone density.) 2. Wired Reflexes & Synaptic Booster (the description clarifies this already, these are pretty much the same thing who are we kidding?) 3. Muscle Aug/Toner & Muscle Replacement (again, the rules clarify this for us) Additionally Essence and Body Index are linked, like a Magicians Essence and their Magic Attribute, the more cyberware you have implanted the less 'meat' there is for the bioware to do its job. As Essence drops also reduce a character body index (rounding down to the nearest whole number). So if a character had simple datajack installed (5.9 Essence left) their body index is 5 (all the nemonic webbing across the brain that supports the DNI makes it difficult for other bioware to function properly). Love it or hate it, that's the system that works for us. Magicians and Adepts still lose magic for Bioware (not that they should, they're not quite broken enough already as it is...) so it keeps everyone playing in their respective niche'. On a side note... is the Hydraulic Jack system compatible with the Cyber Schlong? If so... it's head board breakin' time! Or maybe Cyber Jubblies where the nipples open like Irises and little Ocular Drones can hover out... Or... or... maybe they just 'unscrew' and little mechanical spider legs pop out from under them and (BAM POW) you have Jubblie Drones... complete with firmpoints. Can you imagine the screw ups at the local Patch n' Fix Clincs? A woman walks in for a memory upgrade and walks out with 36EE breasts. I'll quit now... :rotfl: |
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Sep 15 2007, 04:17 AM
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#78
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I would just like to chime in that while four decimal places may seem annoying at time, that is still early elementary school math so.... everyone should be able to do it, and for the most part in their head. Definitely on paper. If it annoys you, then round up to two, one, or no decimal places. Don't force your players to, but allow them to do it if they don't like math. In general I am my group's mathematician. Most of them can do it.... they just don't want to and know if they spit out the numbers I'll return the totals to them free of charge.
No, I'm not calling anyone stupid, just saying that it's not as bad as it seems at first glance. Chris |
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Sep 15 2007, 04:24 AM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I may be wrong, as I don't have Aug yet, but cloned replacements don't cost essence. Things that change the way the body functions cost essence. I mean, yeah cerebral boosters are grown from something that resembles your own tissue, but your brain wasn't built to have that much cerebral cortex around it. It takes a lot of rewiring to add that much matter, just because it comes from tissues very similar to your own doesn't mean it's not very disruptive to do. It is supposed to be a "delicate balance of body and mind required to channel mana" when you take someones' brain and add a hunk of tissue and re-route things so it's used in this and this process etc.... It is going to alter that balance some. Or at least I would assume it would.
Just saying, Cultured Ware isn't cloned, cloned is identical. Cultured Ware is grown to have similar proteins so your body won't recognize it as foreign. It isn't your own tissue, it is an augmentation for a reason. Chris |
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Sep 15 2007, 05:57 AM
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#80
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Cultured bioware isn't just grown from your own tissue - like you could with a cloned live r - instead, what cultured bioware is is your template modified with other stuff. So synpatic boosters are your nerve cells, pulled out, modified, then grown and re-implanted. By contrast a cloned liver is just a bunch of your stem cells, pulled out, treated with a chemical trigger that makes them think they are now liver cells, then grown. The difference is cultured bioware is your cells coached into doing something entirely novel, whereas clonal stuff is your cells coaxed into doing something they already know how to do. |
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Sep 15 2007, 02:20 PM
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#81
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Harrisburg, PA Member No.: 5,848 |
Do Essence values ever have to be calculated on the fly?
It seems that all this math homework is getting done at character creation, or in down-time between runs when you get new 'ware implanted. Neither situation requires the math to be done quickly, nor in your head. And it takes up another eighth of an inch (~0.3125 cm) on paper to fit in two more digits. |
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Sep 15 2007, 02:27 PM
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#82
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
You're completely wrong and your argument is totally off base.
I write big. |
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Sep 15 2007, 04:10 PM
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#83
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
Very cute :D |
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Sep 15 2007, 05:31 PM
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#84
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Character creation is the big one. The number 1 reason for hating SR4 on RPG.net is the chargen system, which is widely considered to be more complicated than GURPS or Hero system... and both of those are universal systems, with a lot more choices than Shdaowrun could ever offer. If one goal of SR4 is to bring in new players, why make it even more unfriendly to start playing? |
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Sep 15 2007, 06:43 PM
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#85
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Wait wait wait, are you trying to imply that this is a problem unique to SR4? SR3: Standard grade Titanium Bone Lacing installed with the Essence Reduction surgical option resulted in a 2.1375 Essence cost, a 4-decimal place value just like all of the x.x5 implants (and there were a -lot- more of those then). And all from just one calculation. |
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Sep 15 2007, 08:02 PM
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#86
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Having seen the Gurps and Hero chargen sections, if not having read them to intimate familiarity, that makes me wonder if anyone whining about it has ever created a Shadowrun 4 character. Or one in any edition, for that matter. Or, on the flip side, if they've ever made a character in Rifts. Whiners. ;) |
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Sep 15 2007, 09:12 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 4-September 07 Member No.: 13,115 |
I can understand where basic math could be quite difficult for some. "Here, you have 400 points, as you buy X take X away. Here is a list of what X costs..." Now, the only thing that actually takes time in Shadowrun Character Creation is buying equipment. To get the right gear is sometimes takes a little time, but aside from that it's a snap. To solve the time issue involved with buying gear (especially for new players) I've created equipment sheets that are broken down into archtypes very similiar to the way the book does it. "Gear & Lifestyle (XXX,XXX¥) (XXBP)" List everything here. I made a different list for each life style based on archtype so it reads like: Street <Archtype> Squatter <Archtype> Low <Archtype> Middle <Archtype> High <Archtype> Luxury <Achtype> Since eveything is already calcualted (spent nuyen, BP costs, Essence, Magic, Spells Purchased, etc...) it helps to speed up the process if someone is looking to save some time at the gaming table. Things are as simple or as difficult as we choose to make them, I've played GURPS and found the process on par with SR4s, and many other systems. It's all boring, I hate making characters simply because 1/2 way through the process I wanna be playing not making a character. Heh. |
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Sep 16 2007, 12:38 AM
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#88
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I've done all of them. I find SR4 to be the most complex. All the arbitrary caps, the lack of any coherent process, the piss-poor layout choices (who on earth puts 12 pages of Edges and Flaws in the *middle* of a chargen chapter?) the funky costs (first you multiply by ten, then by four, then by 5000?) the half-dozen different things you need to track (essence, Edge, magic/resonance sometimes, cash, stats, skills, etc, etc.)
Not at all. That's why I referenced the two other major offenders, GURPS and HERO. |
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Sep 16 2007, 03:31 PM
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#89
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I don't dispute that there's a lot to keep track of. It's kinda inherent to how everything is tied in. Cyber affects atts affects magic affects etc., etc. I guess I never equated "takes some time" with complicated though (I guess part of that is that complicated has somewhat of a negative connotation to me, more along the lines of "hard"; denotatively, it is somewhat complicated).
After doing it a few times (in SR3; have only made one character in SR4 so I'm still finding it) you find your own "process". *shrug* Never really bothered me. |
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Sep 16 2007, 04:21 PM
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#90
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I've made a few. The times involved ranged from several hours to several days. Each time with a calculator. Even with "easier math", it's still tedious and annoying.
I guess the cardinal sin is this: I hate to waste an entire game session generating a character, instead of playing one. Give me Savage Worlds or Wushu, where character generation is completed in five minutes or less (and offer as many options/a lot more action that Shadowrun does.) If you want a better system, then learn from the other systems out there, instead of.....no, I won't go there in this thread. Let's just say there's a difference between education and imitation. |
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Sep 16 2007, 05:42 PM
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#91
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Being familiar with both of those systems, I personally disagree that the characters have as many options as those given in SR. I'm not sure that it's really worth comparing them anyway, however, as the type of game (mechanically and otherwise) is vastly different. The "options" given a SR character pertain directly to the setting and mechanics of SR, whereas in a setting-not-included game like Savage Worlds the mechanics specifically don't directly relate to any given setting (unless you're reading a setting book, of course), and in a game like Wushu, well...
Yes, you could play a "cyberpunk meets magic" game using SW, and perhaps even Wushu, but it would hardly be Shadowrun to me. But in the end, it's just personal taste anyway, and I don't think there's anything to be gained by every game trying to cater to every player out there. |
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