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> Spirit-weapons and spirit-armor, Ally spirits as arms and armor
Buster
post Sep 12 2007, 10:01 PM
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By the Power of Greyskull, I just realized that you can create a materializing ally in the shape of a weapon or a suit of armor. There's nothing in the rules that says an ally's materialized form has to be anything resembling a living creature. You could create a whole line of spirit-armor and spirit-weapons (or demon-armor and demon-weapons if you're nasty).

Weapons:
An ally-sword could be mentally called to materialize right in your hand. The ally sword wouldn't need to know Levitate/Magic Fingers because an ally can always travel 3D even when materialized. It'd even have the metaplanar shortcut trick. Give him the elemental aura power and you've got a flying, teleporting, intelligent, flaming sword!

Armor:
Even a force 1 ally spirit would make an impressive suit of armor that materializes around you on your command. Elemental aura would certainly be even more impressive. Make an ally-armor that's strong enough to carry you (what is that, force 3 or 4?) and you've got free flight 24/7 (spirits never get tired). If the spirit-armor covers your whole body, you've got 100% cover behind a being that has Immunity to Normal Weapons -- it's the next best thing to being possessed.

Buddy:
Want your ally to walk and have a social life too? Just give him (or her) an extra form for 2 karma.

Limitations:
Are there any limitations to this? I remember seeing something that said materialized spirits can't process electricity (i.e. it can look like a toaster, but can't plug into the wall and create toast), so electronic weapons and ruthenium armor would be out, but otherwise I don't see anything that prevents you from creating modern armament like a pistol or combat armor. Page 90-91 of Street Magic says that spirits appearing to be composed of a material (i.e. fire, plasteel) aren't really made up of that material, but some sort of generic arcane material. Nothing says the material can't be sharp, durable, or transparent. Armor that appears to be made from fire or some other exotic material would certainly be impressive (but you might want to keep it out of sight of the cops though). You wouldn't be limited to ally spirits either, you could just as easily create spirit weapons out of regular spirits too, they just don't last as long.

Ideas?
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Aaron
post Sep 12 2007, 11:42 PM
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I'm pretty sure that a spirit in the shape of a sword will have the properties of a spirit, and not a sword. There's some fairly explicit text in Street Magic.
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Buster
post Sep 13 2007, 12:14 AM
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Do you have a page number because pages 90-91 is pretty clear. There's nothing that says it can't be sharp or durable and that's all a sword needs to be. In fact there's a specific example that says a spirit can be formed holding a sword that can cause damage. Do you have a page number that says that it can't just be a sword?
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tyweise
post Sep 13 2007, 12:18 AM
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I'm totally getting a spirit couch.
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darthmord
post Sep 13 2007, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (Buster)
By the Power of Greyskull, I just realized that you can create a materializing ally in the shape of a weapon or a suit of armor. There's nothing in the rules that says an ally's materialized form has to be anything resembling a living creature. You could create a whole line of spirit-armor and spirit-weapons (or demon-armor and demon-weapons if you're nasty).

Weapons:
An ally-sword could be mentally called to materialize right in your hand. The ally sword wouldn't need to know Levitate/Magic Fingers because an ally can always travel 3D even when materialized. It'd even have the metaplanar shortcut trick. Give him the elemental aura power and you've got a flying, teleporting, intelligent, flaming sword!

Armor:
Even a force 1 ally spirit would make an impressive suit of armor that materializes around you on your command. Elemental aura would certainly be even more impressive. Make an ally-armor that's strong enough to carry you (what is that, force 3 or 4?) and you've got free flight 24/7 (spirits never get tired). If the spirit-armor covers your whole body, you've got 100% cover behind a being that has Immunity to Normal Weapons -- it's the next best thing to being possessed.

Buddy:
Want your ally to walk and have a social life too? Just give him (or her) an extra form for 2 karma.

Limitations:
Are there any limitations to this? I remember seeing something that said materialized spirits can't process electricity (i.e. it can look like a toaster, but can't plug into the wall and create toast), so electronic weapons and ruthenium armor would be out, but otherwise I don't see anything that prevents you from creating modern armament like a pistol or combat armor. Page 90-91 of Street Magic says that spirits appearing to be composed of a material (i.e. fire, plasteel) aren't really made up of that material, but some sort of generic arcane material. Nothing says the material can't be sharp, durable, or transparent. Armor that appears to be made from fire or some other exotic material would certainly be impressive (but you might want to keep it out of sight of the cops though). You wouldn't be limited to ally spirits either, you could just as easily create spirit weapons out of regular spirits too, they just don't last as long.

Ideas?

Dude... I love the way you think.

Make that suit of armor a full suit that covers all of your body and voila, to get to you via spellcasting, enemy mages would have to dispell or otherwise disrupt your spirit armor.

Hmm... could have the spirit armor be instructed to cast Heal on itself whenever it gets hurt too. It could sustain a crapload of spells for you...

Man, I'm seeing some serious munchkin. :D
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Buster
post Sep 13 2007, 02:50 AM
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Good point about a full body armor spirit blocking spellcasting. That would definitely be a detriment to the mage since he wouldn't be able to cast spells himself (except on himself). He can't get around it using Channeling metamagic, so I guess that makes it a lot weaker than a possession spirit. Still, a flaming teleporting flying technicolor spirit armor coat would look really pimp. :D
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hyzmarca
post Sep 13 2007, 03:09 AM
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I don't think that wearing a spirit with active Energy Aura is a good idea at all.
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Nychuus
post Sep 13 2007, 03:50 AM
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I'm beggining to wonder how you're going to word the favors to the spirit.
Furthermore, how you're going to explain basic concepts to something that doesn't understand the meaning of "sharp" or "bulletproof".
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Large Mike
post Sep 13 2007, 03:54 AM
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Also, one of our Golden Rules of Magic: No teleporting.
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The Jopp
post Sep 13 2007, 08:16 AM
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Let's go even further for "Bulletproof mage" theme. We use a possession tradition

The mage AND the ally has a sorcery skill equal to the mage. They both know Armour and Reinforce spell.

Ally spirit is a Stealth suit / or Camouflage suit (just to get full body coverage)

Lets say we have a F4 spirit and a full suit of armour that gives (8/8)

We get immunity to normal weapons and Armour 12/12.

Then we cast Reinforce to further increase the armour and then Armour spell...

Now we have TWO spellcasters in one...
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Ophis
post Sep 13 2007, 09:50 AM
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The only weapon ally spirits can become is the Ares Viper Slivergun (Dikoted naturally)
it's in the rules somewhere.

Obviously the answer to the next question that presents itself after this is YES. :D
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Aaron
post Sep 13 2007, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
Do you have a page number because pages 90-91 is pretty clear. There's nothing that says it can't be sharp or durable and that's all a sword needs to be. In fact there's a specific example that says a spirit can be formed holding a sword that can cause damage. Do you have a page number that says that it can't just be a sword?

I'm not saying it can't take the form of a sword. I'm saying that I don't think it would have the same properties as a sword, based on the reading of page 91 in your hymnal.
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darthmord
post Sep 13 2007, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (Large Mike)
Also, one of our Golden Rules of Magic: No teleporting.

Ah but the spirit most certainly *CAN* teleport. Assume for a moment the spirit-sword gets disarmed from you. By using the metaplanar shortcut, it can most certainly teleport from wherever it's at to your hand.

Now this would only work for spirits using Materialization.
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darthmord
post Sep 13 2007, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 12 2007, 07:14 PM)
Do you have a page number because pages 90-91 is pretty clear.  There's nothing that says it can't be sharp or durable and that's all a sword needs to be. In fact there's a specific example that says a spirit can be formed holding a sword that can cause damage.  Do you have a page number that says that it can't just be a sword?

I'm not saying it can't take the form of a sword. I'm saying that I don't think it would have the same properties as a sword, based on the reading of page 91 in your hymnal.

While that may (or may not) be true...

An Ally Spirit *CAN* take the form of a sword or armor. Just build it into the formula.
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Buster
post Sep 13 2007, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 12 2007, 10:09 PM)
I don't think that wearing a spirit with active Energy Aura is a good idea at all.

Good point, maybe I didn't think that one through... "Hmmm, my armor seems to have caught my hair on fire and is burning my skin. Back to the spirit formula." :D
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The Jopp
post Sep 13 2007, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 12 2007, 10:09 PM)
I don't think that wearing a spirit with active Energy Aura is a good idea at all.

Time to modify my Force user rules.

The lightsaber handle is a focal point for the ally spirit and when called upon will summon it at the lightsaber handle and appear as a blade and follow the handles motions.

There, now we have a lightsaber with elemental aura.
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 13 2007, 03:21 PM
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As I mentioned in the other thread about this, you might need Realistic Form in order to achieve all the sword-like properties you're looking for, but it should be doable.
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Prime Mover
post Sep 13 2007, 04:13 PM
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Ok I don't remember right off the top of my head if saw this in a book or was a question answered in faq or on forums here.

A spirits force limits it's size so force 1 ally would be fairly small. and larger force spirit would be too large to be carried or worn.

Also Wouldnt spirit turned into a sword act as a club, not changing its properties but its shape?
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 13 2007, 04:27 PM
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There's nothing official correlating a spirit's force and size, but I believe it was FrankTrollman who gave us the secret rule-of-thumb for determining a volume range based on force.
I'll try my search-fu...

edit: The thread is here. And it's silly.
However Frank's rule-of-thumb was 10-60 liters per force, which is actually a good way for the GM to allow this but prevent it from being TOO powerful.

edit again:
QUOTE (Prime Mover)
Also Wouldnt spirit turned into a sword act as a club, not changing its properties but its shape?
And I still say that if Realistic Form can give a spirit warm flesh and a pulse, it can give a sword-shaped spirit a sharp edge. Ally spirits can have Realistic Form, can't they? I'm not just making stuff up?

third edit:
Street Magic pg 104 confirms that not only can allies have Realistic Form, all allies DO have Realistic Form.
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Prime Mover
post Sep 13 2007, 04:44 PM
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Thinking realistic form was to offset the spirit rule that they would never be confused for non spirit, under RAW all spirits can easily be identified as spiritual in nature. Realistic Form allows the spirit to be mistaken for a real object or person, with limited functionality. Using the SM description makes sword and suit of armor viable.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 13 2007, 06:05 PM
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This isn't exactly new or even unique to SR4. Ally Spirits have always been able to assume such forms, and one of the novels even features an Ally Spirit taking the form of a motorcycle if memory serves.

For all intents and purposes, it's heavily implied and assumed that Ally Spirits with a Form adopt all the normal and expected characteristics of that Form in addition to their spiritual abilities. Ally Spirits in the Form of a Human, for instance, walk and talk just like a normal Human. An Ally Spirit in the Form of a Suzuki Mirage would be as ridable and maneuverable as a real Suzuki Mirage. An Ally Spirit in the Form of a Katana will slice and dice just like a normal Katana. Realistic Form simply makes the form look completely normal and mundane, as opposed to ethereally and spirty in nature.

Now if that Ally Spirit with the Suzuki Mirage Form wants to go beyond the bounds of a normal racing bike and carry its rider into the sky, it's limited by its ability to fly and its Strength score. If that Ally Spirit with a Katana Form wants to fly around and fight, it does so with its normal combat (and Swords Skill) abilities. etc.

This, again, is what the rules imply but have never actually said. It's up to the GM (Oh my God, reliance on a GM in a pen-and-paper roleplaying game?! THE HELL YOU SAY!) to limit and determine the exact effects of a given form. If they think one is going too far, they can smack the idea down with full justification and reason.

You just have to remember that any perceived notion of how unbalanced it may be is weighed against all the vulnerabilities and hindrances of having to rely on an Ally Spirit for them. They have this nasty habit of rebelling and turning against you if you mistreat them, can be disrupted, can be banished, have their own personalities, and cost a shitload of Karma. I'm not sure if it's possible in SR4, but in SR3 they could even effectively be stolen from you by someone who learned their True Name.
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DTFarstar
post Sep 13 2007, 06:41 PM
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Talon's Ally in Crossroads and Ragnarok had the alternate form of a motorcycle that required Long Island Iced Teas instead of gasoline. Not to operate, just to keep it happy.


Chris

EDIT: Aragos, that was his name. Very detailed personality. Regardless of whether you liked the books(I did) he was a wonderful example of an ally spirit.
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Jaid
post Sep 13 2007, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
This isn't exactly new or even unique to SR4. Ally Spirits have always been able to assume such forms, and one of the novels even features an Ally Spirit taking the form of a motorcycle if memory serves.

For all intents and purposes, it's heavily implied and assumed that Ally Spirits with a Form adopt all the normal and expected characteristics of that Form in addition to their spiritual abilities. Ally Spirits in the Form of a Human, for instance, walk and talk just like a normal Human. An Ally Spirit in the Form of a Suzuki Mirage would be as ridable and maneuverable as a real Suzuki Mirage. An Ally Spirit in the Form of a Katana will slice and dice just like a normal Katana. Realistic Form simply makes the form look completely normal and mundane, as opposed to ethereally and spirty in nature.

except that the attributes of the spirit are already selected. i can't decide to make my spirit take the form of an ares citymaster and have the attributes of an ares citymaster (unless it's either a possession or inhabitation spirit and i already have an ares citymaster).

a spirit in the form of a sword would do damage (when attacking by itself) as a spirit of appropriate force with the appropriate abilities. if wielded as a weapon, it would do as much damage as a normal spirit of appropriate force (and abilities) would deal as an improvised weapon.
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Buster
post Sep 13 2007, 07:26 PM
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It wouldn't be an improvised weapon if it was in the form of a katana, it's not like you're swatting the guy with something that's in the shape of a genie. The Guardian spirit has the Natural Weaponry power which the spirit uses to form a sword, but in our case the spirit form is entirely the sword. I don't see why the spirit-weapon would need the special power since that form already has plenty of limitations (like a lack of arms/hands/etc).

The ally can't be an Ares Citymaster because spirits can't be that big. Nothing official that I can find, but Frank was saying that he proposed a formula that said a high force spirit could only be about as big as a troll/horse/motorcycle. But you're right, if it was a possession spirit instead, it could possess something bigger like a Citymaster.

If you want your spirit to be as strong as a horse and not just look like a horse, it would have to have around Str 8. If you want your spirit-armor to be able to carry you like flying armor, it'll need around Str 3. A flying spirit-weapon would use it's own stats to attack, but if it just went limp and let you use it like a regular sword, you would use your own Str and Agi.
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Tarantula
post Sep 13 2007, 08:30 PM
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Note: Realistic Form actually uses a toaster as its example. In so far as stating a toaster spirit could be plugged into the wall and used to make toast. Likewise, a sword spirit could be wielded like a sword, and used to slice people. Or a motorcycle spirit could be ridden like a motorcycle, and used to drive around.
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