Star Wars: Saga Edition Review Options

[Zhan Shi]

First, what I did'nt like.

1. It's a bit pricey, retailing at $39.95
2. They still insist on basing your chance to hit with melee attacks on strength, not agility
3. Too many mistakes. The errata on WotC is lengthy.

Those issues aside, I was pleasently surprised. The book is a hardcover, and binding is excellent...you won't have pages coming loose. Developers did a good job, IMO, of condensing material from previous editions while adding new twists, such as "Talent Trees" and "Destiny Points". The section on The Force is informative without seeming like a philisophical dissertation. Character creation/customization and combat are fluid, if a tad on the dramatic side. I definitley prefer their current write up on Dark Side points, and how they are gained, as opposed to previous editions. All in all a good product. Unless, of course, you don't like Star Wars to begin with.

[eidolon]

[Wounded Ronin]

But I like philosophical dissertations. :(

[Unarmed]

Considering that the first RPG I ever played was WEG star wars, I have the hugest of soft spots for it and can't see myself purchasing this even though it might be a good game.

[fistandantilus4....]

I have the hugest of soft spots for it and can't see myself purchasing this even though it might be a good game.

Amen to that. I love the old system to much to change. That being said, I am curious about some of those details though Zhan, such as the "destiny points", how Darkside Points changed, and why combat is "dramatic". Got a sec for some more information?

[Moon-Hawk]

Saga did some great stuff in combining a lot of classes and allowing you to differentiate completely between two characters of the exact same class, giving them different abilities and making them generally unrecognizable as belonging to the same class. They then made it very, very multiclass-friendly, allowing you to make any character with a short selection of classes, and allowing for two characters with the same classes to be completely different. I think that's a very good thing.
Then they screwed it up in the prestige class section by adding 6 force-using classes that could've been handled by 1-2.

[Sammiel]

i have most of the revised d20 starwars, and I just don't think the game belongs in a class based system. WEG 4 lief

[fistandantilus4....]

[Zhan Shi]

I'll do my best, Fisty. Just keep in mind that I'm not a pro writer/reviewer by any means, so if my answers seem lacking, bear with me.

1. Dark Side Points. It's been a loooooooong time since I've read any of the WEG stuff. But as I recall, evil characters such as Vader, Palpatine, etc., seemed to have a rather low DS score, considering how evil they were supposed to be. Combining use of dark side powers with evil acts, it seemed to me that a character with as long a history of dark side use such as the Emperor would have a much higher score than WEG gave him. The new edition clarifies that a character's maximum DS score is equal to his Wisdom. Second, the new edition, IMO, provides a more in depth explanation of what constitutes a DS act. They provide a three tiered structure of severity: Major, Moderate and Minor, with examples.

2. Destiny Points. In a sense, the developers split the old force points, reassigning some their functions to the new Destiny Point system. This gives even non force characters a power boost, provided they are acting towards fulfilling their destiny. They also explain force spirits this way; force characters, good or bad, who die in the process of fulfilling their destiny become force spirits.

3. Dramatic Combat. Although it may have seemed like a criticism, it was'nt intended that way; I was just trying to illustrate the style difference between SR and SW. You know, I'm sure, of the arguments and complaints that have happened on dumpshock about munchkins, power gamers, min maxing, etc. The developers of SW have just seemed to accept that SW is a high drama setting, where the characters are meant to do great deeds and survive against all odds. Though not stated in the book, the attitude seems to be something like "So what if it seems over the top or melodramatic; you're playing a larger than life hero. Don't let concerns about game balance prevent you from having a fun gaming experience." (I agree with this, BTW, at least in regards to playing SW). For gamers who are simply looking for a good time, in a game that won't get bogged down in arguments over rules, I think SW would be a good choice. But if you're a gamer who prefers a more realistic "street level" atmosphere, SW is not for you.


Hope that helps. If I answered too vaguely, or did'nt provide the answers you were looking for, let me know and I'll attempt to clarify.

[Unarmed]

Zhan, between you and Moon Hawk the two of you are doing a pretty good job of selling me on the game. Dramatic combat just plain makes sense in star wars, I think, the setting is not really supposed to be gritty, although you can play it that way if you want. The destiny points sound really cool and seem to bring an added bit of narrativism.

I also dislike d20's fairly rigid class system, but Moon Hawk says they've made it much more dynamic, so this may be another book I'll have to go pick up.

[Moon-Hawk]

Also, the new force points work more like the action points from d20 modern. You get more of them, and every time you level up you lose any leftover points and get new ones, so no hoarding them.
I agree with Sammiel that Star Wars just shouldn't be in a class-based game, but the Saga edition base class flexibility makes it less bad. Much less bad.
More feats for everyone and more flexibility means that you don't necessarily have to have a 20-level build before you start play in order to not suck later in the game.
I don't like level-based, class-based games, but Saga edition lessens a lot of my reasons for that.

Oh, and be prepared to house-rule diagonal movement back to the D&D3.X way. I don't know what they were thinking.

[Adam]

I haven't had chance to do more than flip through Saga and read some of the introductory stuff yet, but I bought it sight unseen based on the amount of fun I had with the last Star Wars campaign I played in, using the d20 Revised rules.

I boggle at the idea of any good-quality full-color hardback being considered "a bit pricey" at $40, though!

[fistandantilus4....]

Zhan, I wrote a big long 'thanks' reply but lost it thanks to a crappy computer. So I'll shorten it to just "thanks". :)

[Zhan Shi]

You're welcome.

Point taken about the price. I guess it's just force of habit. When I first got into rpgs, the average price of a hardcover book was...what...something like 12-15 dollars. Same thing happened with comics; when I started collecting, an average issue was 65 cents. Fast forward 24 years, and now, from my previous perspective, everything's a bit pricey. But as Adam said, they give you a good quality product for your money. I don't regret one cent I spent on the Saga Edition. I just hope WotC continue to support the new game line. First order of business, IMO, should be an in depth Jedi/Darkside sourcebook(s).

[Tanka]

[fistandantilus4....]

It's a tangent, but I lived (briefly) in an apartment complex in San Jose that really had me worried. Just after we'd signed the lease agreement, they'd handed me a piece of paper that essentially said that the water they drew from for the showers contained chemicals that were known to cause cancer. Again, After we'd signed the lease agreement. Needless to say, we didn't live there for long.

On topic, Saga edition would be a hard sell for me. But I'll at least take a look at it on Zhan's recommendation. Give the thing a chance.

[Zhan Shi]

I'm flattered, Fisty. Hope you like it. If you do decide to play, you'll want to check out the errata on the WotC site.

[Zhan Shi]

Just got a copy of "Starships of the Galaxy". I was hoping for a Dark Side sourcebook, but was impressed anyway. As with the Saga Edition, the cover, interior art work and binding are excellent. This seems to be a major strength of all WotC books, and my one major beef with SR3; I'd buy an SR3 book, and after a couple of months I'd have pages coming loose. But I digress. They do a good job of explaining all facets of buying and owning a starship, from getting a license, to travel times, maintenance and combat. Plenty of extras are provided for people who want to customize. I really liked the section on how talents (including force talents) interact with starship operation, and they provide plenty of new feats for players who want to be an ace pilot. Rules for space hazards such as asteroid fields are covered. The book ends with a selection of ships of all scales, such as fighter, freightors and capital size. These come from not only the movies, but also novels, comics and video games, and from all eras of play. All in all a very good companion volume for the Saga Edition, and coming from someone such as myself who has never been a techie, that's saying something. I would recommend this book as much as Saga Edition.

[Zhan Shi]

As an adjunct to the Star Wars rpg, I would recommend "Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force". This volume is one of an eight part series; others deal with characyers, timeline, vehicles, etc. Very good in depth analysis of Jedi and Sith powers, philosophy, etc., from 25, 000 before Yavin to the "present" (which I believe is 140 years after Yavin). Well written and illustrated.

[SincereAgape]

Hoi. Thinking about changing my regular gaming habits from Shadowrun to Star Wars Saga Edition. Over the past few years I have been attending local conventions in New Jersey and New York and each time I sit down at a Star Wars RPG table it has been a very positive experience. I have played Star Wars D20, Star Wars Saga, and Star Wars WEG D6. In the order of enjoyment the rankings are as follows.

1. Star Wars D 20
2. Star Wars Saga
3. Star Wars D6

The rankings above were mainly based off the party and the GMs. In total I have played Star Wars Saga once, Star Wars D6 once, and Star Wars D20 twice.

Back to the topic, after reading this thread it seems that people have enjoyed Star Wars Saga over pre-2007 Star Wars D20. My one experience with Saga Edition was fairly positive. The science fiction, problem solving, and investigation aspect of the game blended well with the cinematic combat of the module. The combat was fun and relatively short (This having 6-7 PCs in the module) when compared to Shadowrun, and there was enough role-playing in the game to more then just a combat fest.

My only fear is breaking out the battle maps and miniatures on a consistent basis. Having never played a Star Wars pencil and paper RPG on a consistent basis, I am wondering if Star Wars Saga offers more diversity in gaming then D&D 4.0. In other words I am looking for more in a game then a dungeon crawl (Yes. D&D can be more then a dungeon crawl, but most adventures in D&D is centered around combat).

What I adore about Shadowrun is that even though Combat is a big part of the game, you can have minimal amount of fighting sequences in the game and still have run. For those who have played Star Wars Saga or Star Wars D20 on a consistent basis, my question is, is the system and game style of Saga Edition more of a dungeon crawl centered around combat? Or does the game offer more to that like WoD, Shadowrun, and Dark Hersey?

[Warlordtheft]

I picked up a copy od D20 star wars (revised), read it and promptly decided that I prefer the D6 mechanics of the WEG system. In my experience, firefights are not well handled for the D20 Hit point system (no matter how they sliced it). I found the one time a friend of mine ran a D20 modern version of SR particularly painful for this reason and others (the wealth system for example).

[PBTHHHHT]

D6 is the way I roll, I still have great memories of it back in high school. My current gaming group still has a campaign that we've been playing off and on for awhile now.

That said, another guy wants to do a once a month game using the Starwars Saga rules. Oh boy, we'll see how it goes.

[SincereAgape]

I picked up a copy od D20 star wars (revised), read it and promptly decided that I prefer the D6 mechanics of the WEG system. In my experience, firefights are not well handled for the D20 Hit point system (no matter how they sliced it). I found the one time a friend of mine ran a D20 modern version of SR particularly painful for this reason and others (the wealth system for example).

Star Wars D20, or D20 in general has always been more about cinema and the expansion of someone's imagination. Where as D6 systems generally tend to be more realistic in nature such as Star Wars WEGS and of course our beloved Shadowrun.

I finished playing a game of Star Wars D20 Saga Edition at a Convention yesterday. The game seemed complicated. Not as complex as Shadowrun, but there was a lot of feats, statistics, and a few modifiers. We did not use a battle map when conducting fights.

After playing the session, I spoke to one of the other PCs who was most into the game. This particular person GMs a Star Wars Saga game in Queens. He told me that compared to D20 Revised, Saga is a complex game, one that takes a few times to play it before you actually get the rules.

A follow up question for anyone who knows the answer. Is Star Wars Saga Edition a mind numbing system that requires a lot of memorization and rules modifications to play? I know it's not a complex as Shadowrun, but I don't want another system which I will have to memories a lot of details about rules over the world itself etc.

And subsequently is D6 WEG, or D20 Revised as rules intense?

Ah. How I miss the days of RPG's gone by. Where the rules were more simple and it left more to the imagination. D&D 2nd, Masquerade, L5R etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

D6 is pretty straight forward as to the rules. All the test more or less use the same system. Star ship stats break down really easily, so you can glance and compare on those very fast. Really the only thing that takes a lot of memory is force powers. I think the biggest difference in D6 to D20 is how powerful the Force is in D6. Basically, if you're not a jedi and you're going against a skilled one , you're in serious trouble, unless you're dan smart about it. Thing is, that's how it's presented in the fiction. Sort of like "Geek the mage first."

Jedi are scaled back considerably in the d20/saga versions, although they do still have quite an edge. I don't care for Saga's trees personally. I think they're a bit lack luster, and already gimped by having the class system. ne of my favorite things about SW was how easily you could diversify your character. In the SW movies , Leia was a pretty bad ass commando, a good pilot, and an outstanding dignitary/noble. Han was a scoundrel, and eventually, a general. Luke was an Ace Pilot, a fringer, then a Jedi Master. Those would be hard to do to the abiity they're at in the Saga/d20 rules, but fairly straight forward in D6.

[toturi]

D6 is pretty straight forward as to the rules. All the test more or less use the same system. Star ship stats break down really easily, so you can glance and compare on those very fast. Really the only thing that takes a lot of memory is force powers. I think the biggest difference in D6 to D20 is how powerful the Force is in D6. Basically, if you're not a jedi and you're going against a skilled one , you're in serious trouble, unless you're dan smart about it. Thing is, that's how it's presented in the fiction. Sort of like "Geek the mage first."

Jedi are scaled back considerably in the d20/saga versions, although they do still have quite an edge. I don't care for Saga's trees personally. I think they're a bit lack luster, and already gimped by having the class system. ne of my favorite things about SW was how easily you could diversify your character. In the SW movies , Leia was a pretty bad ass commando, a good pilot, and an outstanding dignitary/noble. Han was a scoundrel, and eventually, a general. Luke was an Ace Pilot, a fringer, then a Jedi Master. Those would be hard to do to the abiity they're at in the Saga/d20 rules, but fairly straight forward in D6.

Not really. A good Force user in SAGA is still very strong unless you are really experienced.

While I dislike class systems, I'd say this about the SAGA system - it is very multiclass friendly and it is quite easy to create a character with a wide array of capabilities. You can pretty easily recreate Leia, Han and Luke in SAGA. You have to bear in mind that majority of the galaxy are non-heroic when making your comparisons. Comparatively, a ARC trooper(even one with Karen Traviss Mando love) is nowhere near the capabilities of someone like Jango (the original "template").