First, what I did'nt like.

1. It's a bit pricey, retailing at $39.95
2. They still insist on basing your chance to hit with melee attacks on strength, not agility
3. Too many mistakes. The errata on WotC is lengthy.

Those issues aside, I was pleasently surprised. The book is a hardcover, and binding is excellent...you won't have pages coming loose. Developers did a good job, IMO, of condensing material from previous editions while adding new twists, such as "Talent Trees" and "Destiny Points". The section on The Force is informative without seeming like a philisophical dissertation. Character creation/customization and combat are fluid, if a tad on the dramatic side. I definitley prefer their current write up on Dark Side points, and how they are gained, as opposed to previous editions. All in all a good product. Unless, of course, you don't like Star Wars to begin with.

But I like philosophical dissertations.

Considering that the first RPG I ever played was WEG star wars, I have the hugest of soft spots for it and can't see myself purchasing this even though it might be a good game.

Amen to that. I love the old system to much to change. That being said, I am curious about some of those details though Zhan, such as the "destiny points", how Darkside Points changed, and why combat is "dramatic". Got a sec for some more information?

Saga did some great stuff in combining a lot of classes and allowing you to differentiate completely between two characters of the exact same class, giving them different abilities and making them generally unrecognizable as belonging to the same class. They then made it very, very multiclass-friendly, allowing you to make any character with a short selection of classes, and allowing for two characters with the same classes to be completely different. I think that's a very good thing.
Then they screwed it up in the prestige class section by adding 6 force-using classes that could've been handled by 1-2.

i have most of the revised d20 starwars, and I just don't think the game belongs in a class based system. WEG 4 lief

I'll do my best, Fisty. Just keep in mind that I'm not a pro writer/reviewer by any means, so if my answers seem lacking, bear with me.

1. Dark Side Points. It's been a loooooooong time since I've read any of the WEG stuff. But as I recall, evil characters such as Vader, Palpatine, etc., seemed to have a rather low DS score, considering how evil they were supposed to be. Combining use of dark side powers with evil acts, it seemed to me that a character with as long a history of dark side use such as the Emperor would have a much higher score than WEG gave him. The new edition clarifies that a character's maximum DS score is equal to his Wisdom. Second, the new edition, IMO, provides a more in depth explanation of what constitutes a DS act. They provide a three tiered structure of severity: Major, Moderate and Minor, with examples.

2. Destiny Points. In a sense, the developers split the old force points, reassigning some their functions to the new Destiny Point system. This gives even non force characters a power boost, provided they are acting towards fulfilling their destiny. They also explain force spirits this way; force characters, good or bad, who die in the process of fulfilling their destiny become force spirits.

3. Dramatic Combat. Although it may have seemed like a criticism, it was'nt intended that way; I was just trying to illustrate the style difference between SR and SW. You know, I'm sure, of the arguments and complaints that have happened on dumpshock about munchkins, power gamers, min maxing, etc. The developers of SW have just seemed to accept that SW is a high drama setting, where the characters are meant to do great deeds and survive against all odds. Though not stated in the book, the attitude seems to be something like "So what if it seems over the top or melodramatic; you're playing a larger than life hero. Don't let concerns about game balance prevent you from having a fun gaming experience." (I agree with this, BTW, at least in regards to playing SW). For gamers who are simply looking for a good time, in a game that won't get bogged down in arguments over rules, I think SW would be a good choice. But if you're a gamer who prefers a more realistic "street level" atmosphere, SW is not for you.


Hope that helps. If I answered too vaguely, or did'nt provide the answers you were looking for, let me know and I'll attempt to clarify.

Zhan, between you and Moon Hawk the two of you are doing a pretty good job of selling me on the game. Dramatic combat just plain makes sense in star wars, I think, the setting is not really supposed to be gritty, although you can play it that way if you want. The destiny points sound really cool and seem to bring an added bit of narrativism.

I also dislike d20's fairly rigid class system, but Moon Hawk says they've made it much more dynamic, so this may be another book I'll have to go pick up.

Also, the new force points work more like the action points from d20 modern. You get more of them, and every time you level up you lose any leftover points and get new ones, so no hoarding them.
I agree with Sammiel that Star Wars just shouldn't be in a class-based game, but the Saga edition base class flexibility makes it less bad. Much less bad.
More feats for everyone and more flexibility means that you don't necessarily have to have a 20-level build before you start play in order to not suck later in the game.
I don't like level-based, class-based games, but Saga edition lessens a lot of my reasons for that.

Oh, and be prepared to house-rule diagonal movement back to the D&D3.X way. I don't know what they were thinking.

I haven't had chance to do more than flip through Saga and read some of the introductory stuff yet, but I bought it sight unseen based on the amount of fun I had with the last Star Wars campaign I played in, using the d20 Revised rules.

I boggle at the idea of any good-quality full-color hardback being considered "a bit pricey" at $40, though!

Zhan, I wrote a big long 'thanks' reply but lost it thanks to a crappy computer. So I'll shorten it to just "thanks".

You're welcome.

Point taken about the price. I guess it's just force of habit. When I first got into rpgs, the average price of a hardcover book was...what...something like 12-15 dollars. Same thing happened with comics; when I started collecting, an average issue was 65 cents. Fast forward 24 years, and now, from my previous perspective, everything's a bit pricey. But as Adam said, they give you a good quality product for your money. I don't regret one cent I spent on the Saga Edition. I just hope WotC continue to support the new game line. First order of business, IMO, should be an in depth Jedi/Darkside sourcebook(s).

It's a tangent, but I lived (briefly) in an apartment complex in San Jose that really had me worried. Just after we'd signed the lease agreement, they'd handed me a piece of paper that essentially said that the water they drew from for the showers contained chemicals that were known to cause cancer. Again, After we'd signed the lease agreement. Needless to say, we didn't live there for long.

On topic, Saga edition would be a hard sell for me. But I'll at least take a look at it on Zhan's recommendation. Give the thing a chance.

I'm flattered, Fisty. Hope you like it. If you do decide to play, you'll want to check out the errata on the WotC site.

Just got a copy of "Starships of the Galaxy". I was hoping for a Dark Side sourcebook, but was impressed anyway. As with the Saga Edition, the cover, interior art work and binding are excellent. This seems to be a major strength of all WotC books, and my one major beef with SR3; I'd buy an SR3 book, and after a couple of months I'd have pages coming loose. But I digress. They do a good job of explaining all facets of buying and owning a starship, from getting a license, to travel times, maintenance and combat. Plenty of extras are provided for people who want to customize. I really liked the section on how talents (including force talents) interact with starship operation, and they provide plenty of new feats for players who want to be an ace pilot. Rules for space hazards such as asteroid fields are covered. The book ends with a selection of ships of all scales, such as fighter, freightors and capital size. These come from not only the movies, but also novels, comics and video games, and from all eras of play. All in all a very good companion volume for the Saga Edition, and coming from someone such as myself who has never been a techie, that's saying something. I would recommend this book as much as Saga Edition.

As an adjunct to the Star Wars rpg, I would recommend "Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force". This volume is one of an eight part series; others deal with characyers, timeline, vehicles, etc. Very good in depth analysis of Jedi and Sith powers, philosophy, etc., from 25, 000 before Yavin to the "present" (which I believe is 140 years after Yavin). Well written and illustrated.

Hoi. Thinking about changing my regular gaming habits from Shadowrun to Star Wars Saga Edition. Over the past few years I have been attending local conventions in New Jersey and New York and each time I sit down at a Star Wars RPG table it has been a very positive experience. I have played Star Wars D20, Star Wars Saga, and Star Wars WEG D6. In the order of enjoyment the rankings are as follows.

1. Star Wars D 20
2. Star Wars Saga
3. Star Wars D6

The rankings above were mainly based off the party and the GMs. In total I have played Star Wars Saga once, Star Wars D6 once, and Star Wars D20 twice.

Back to the topic, after reading this thread it seems that people have enjoyed Star Wars Saga over pre-2007 Star Wars D20. My one experience with Saga Edition was fairly positive. The science fiction, problem solving, and investigation aspect of the game blended well with the cinematic combat of the module. The combat was fun and relatively short (This having 6-7 PCs in the module) when compared to Shadowrun, and there was enough role-playing in the game to more then just a combat fest.

My only fear is breaking out the battle maps and miniatures on a consistent basis. Having never played a Star Wars pencil and paper RPG on a consistent basis, I am wondering if Star Wars Saga offers more diversity in gaming then D&D 4.0. In other words I am looking for more in a game then a dungeon crawl (Yes. D&D can be more then a dungeon crawl, but most adventures in D&D is centered around combat).

What I adore about Shadowrun is that even though Combat is a big part of the game, you can have minimal amount of fighting sequences in the game and still have run. For those who have played Star Wars Saga or Star Wars D20 on a consistent basis, my question is, is the system and game style of Saga Edition more of a dungeon crawl centered around combat? Or does the game offer more to that like WoD, Shadowrun, and Dark Hersey?

I picked up a copy od D20 star wars (revised), read it and promptly decided that I prefer the D6 mechanics of the WEG system. In my experience, firefights are not well handled for the D20 Hit point system (no matter how they sliced it). I found the one time a friend of mine ran a D20 modern version of SR particularly painful for this reason and others (the wealth system for example).

D6 is the way I roll, I still have great memories of it back in high school. My current gaming group still has a campaign that we've been playing off and on for awhile now.

That said, another guy wants to do a once a month game using the Starwars Saga rules. Oh boy, we'll see how it goes.

Star Wars D20, or D20 in general has always been more about cinema and the expansion of someone's imagination. Where as D6 systems generally tend to be more realistic in nature such as Star Wars WEGS and of course our beloved Shadowrun.

I finished playing a game of Star Wars D20 Saga Edition at a Convention yesterday. The game seemed complicated. Not as complex as Shadowrun, but there was a lot of feats, statistics, and a few modifiers. We did not use a battle map when conducting fights.

After playing the session, I spoke to one of the other PCs who was most into the game. This particular person GMs a Star Wars Saga game in Queens. He told me that compared to D20 Revised, Saga is a complex game, one that takes a few times to play it before you actually get the rules.

A follow up question for anyone who knows the answer. Is Star Wars Saga Edition a mind numbing system that requires a lot of memorization and rules modifications to play? I know it's not a complex as Shadowrun, but I don't want another system which I will have to memories a lot of details about rules over the world itself etc.

And subsequently is D6 WEG, or D20 Revised as rules intense?

Ah. How I miss the days of RPG's gone by. Where the rules were more simple and it left more to the imagination. D&D 2nd, Masquerade, L5R etc.

D6 is pretty straight forward as to the rules. All the test more or less use the same system. Star ship stats break down really easily, so you can glance and compare on those very fast. Really the only thing that takes a lot of memory is force powers. I think the biggest difference in D6 to D20 is how powerful the Force is in D6. Basically, if you're not a jedi and you're going against a skilled one , you're in serious trouble, unless you're dan smart about it. Thing is, that's how it's presented in the fiction. Sort of like "Geek the mage first."

Jedi are scaled back considerably in the d20/saga versions, although they do still have quite an edge. I don't care for Saga's trees personally. I think they're a bit lack luster, and already gimped by having the class system. ne of my favorite things about SW was how easily you could diversify your character. In the SW movies , Leia was a pretty bad ass commando, a good pilot, and an outstanding dignitary/noble. Han was a scoundrel, and eventually, a general. Luke was an Ace Pilot, a fringer, then a Jedi Master. Those would be hard to do to the abiity they're at in the Saga/d20 rules, but fairly straight forward in D6.

Not really. A good Force user in SAGA is still very strong unless you are really experienced.

While I dislike class systems, I'd say this about the SAGA system - it is very multiclass friendly and it is quite easy to create a character with a wide array of capabilities. You can pretty easily recreate Leia, Han and Luke in SAGA. You have to bear in mind that majority of the galaxy are non-heroic when making your comparisons. Comparatively, a ARC trooper(even one with Karen Traviss Mando love) is nowhere near the capabilities of someone like Jango (the original "template").

Which is a bad thing in my opinion - a game should offer balanced characters, not one god class and henchmen for the rest. Having jedi be stronger than other heroes is bad.

Right, because the Jedi characters certainly don't dominate the source material, after all.

I enjoyed SWSE for what it was, but we only played for a few weeks, and mainly for novelty purposes.

All player characters should be of equal power - after all, we're playing heroes, character that are a cut above the norm. There is no reason at all to make some PCs better than others just for using a lightsaber and force powers.

Unless, that is, you're okay with ignoring a little bit of game balance in exchange for staying true to the source material. A Jedi that's a cut above the norm is still going to be more potent -- in his element -- than a smuggler or fighter pilot that's a cut above his norm. That's just how the setting is.

The job of the GM is to make sure that the Jedi isn't always in his element, that not every adventure is solved by what the Jedi's chosen to be good at, etc, etc. There's just no denying that a skilled Jedi character will totally eat face in melee -- stacking Jedi upkeep powers with the base power of a Lightsaber and adding Jedi-only attributes to attack and damage rolls, for instance -- but if all a game ever does is engage in melee combat, there's something wrong. The old D6 system is pretty fast and loose with some stuff (like Contacts, compared to Shadowrun), though, and there are still plenty of opportunities for gamblers, smugglers, pirates, bounty hunters, and whatever else you want to play to shine.

But shining isn't the same as being more powerful.

I disagree. There is no reason at all why player characters non-jedi would have to be weaker than PC-jedi - the source material never says that all jedi are more powerful than everyone else. I do not know why you'd think that. The best player character jedi can be of equal power as the best non-jedi, and the Star Wars universe is not touched at all.

Seriously? We're arguing why Jedi are cooler than everyone else in a Star Wars game?

In SAGA equal level jedi (and other force users) and non-jedi can be pretty even in terms of ability. Look at what you see in the movies and novels though, what you see are Jedi on the edge of being Knights(7th level) or Masters (Level 13+) going against Storm Troopers (Nonheroic 4), and Clone Troopers (Non-heroic 6). The reason Jedi tend to wipe the floor with anyone else is that we only see the ones who are the real bad asses that are a lot higher level than their opposition who have been on years worth of back to back missions. It'd be like putting a 400 BP character against a 400BP character that has 100-200 karma on top.

Which is why non-Force-wielders constantly kick Jedi's ass in lightsaber duels all over the place in the movies and comics, right?

Seriously, I don't know how you can even argue something like this. In the source material, Jedi (by which I also mean Sith, and other active Force wielders) are presented to us as remarkably badass. Period. For better or worse, Jedi dominate the stories they're in, are the central heroes and villains of every major story, and can single-handedly sway a battle. Any non-Jedi who can stand up to one is the very best at what he does, is clever enough to stack the deck in his favor, has a massive technological advantage, or all of the above (see Boba Fett, for instance). That's just how it is.

I think it's okay for an RPG, as such, to throw balance out the window a little bit if and only if it's doing so to stay true to the source material. In a comic book superhero RPG, it's Batman that kicks most of the ass, not Robin or Alfred. Superman saves the day, not Lois and Jimmy. Iron Man is awesome, not Pepper Potts. Is it fair? Not entirely. Is it true to the setting? Absolutely.

If you don't like it, that's fine. I just think it's silly to say that I'm wrong for saying that's how it is.

Appearantly, Grievous was. Of course, one of his foes is an expy of Shaggy from Scooby Doo, so perhaps it might not have been that difficult to defeat the jedi...
I'd wager that those would be the non-jedi player characters. Capable of being on par with the jedi player character by being supersmart, superstrong, super-connected, super-rich, or super-equipped, and whatever ability equals the theoretical discrepancy between Luke (when he's a jedi acknoledged by Yoda) and Han Solo (who's spent some time sleeping in carbonite).

And of course, the jedi player character can't be everywhere, and the best thing for a gm would be to take some clues from "Return of the Jedi". Only Luke could defeat his daddy and tell him he's forgiven when they both throw down wrinkle-face Dark-Side-ious /Darth Sidious/the Grand Poobah Palpatine some shaft. But Luke can't also blow up the shield generator in the same time, and he can't fly with his x-wing into the core of the second death star to pulverize it (again). Those absolutely equally important things are done by his more mundane pals Han, Lando, Chewie, R2-D2, C3PO Wedge, and Leia (not having manifested the Force herself yet).

One should try to create situations where the non-jedi should also be needed.

That's why stupid and totally mundane Batman is still useful compared to the Martian Manhunter, Superman, any of the Green Lanterns, Wonderwoman, and any other of the billions of superheroes with super-abilities other than being crazy prepared (which might or might not be a superpower itself, making Batman a mutant too, haha).

Eh? NH's are 1/3 equivalent of heroic classes. Padawans and Jedi Knights could theorectically be created using the Non-heroic class but the RPG source material suggests that Padawans are gain experience as fast as their masters and when they finally hit level 7, they trade in their NH classes for Jedi+Jedi Knight classes. The NH Jedi are the "normal" guys, the guys you do not see, the not-Padawan material half-pass-sixes that get dumped into the Jedi "subsidiaries". The jedi-class Jedis (like the PCs) are the stars of the show - which is why Asoka wasn't pleased with her "guard" duty.

Comparing Clone Troopers or even ARCs or Clone Commanders like Cody and Rex to Jedi is like pitting Rating 3 Grunts or Inferior NPCs against 400 BP characters with karma. Anything short of a very lucky hit isn't likely to get through.

I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying there Toturi. Any hero from a Heroic class is likely going to be able to wade through level appropriate non-heroics. Non-heroics have 1/3rd of the HP, and generally much worse defenses. I was commenting on the balance between the Heroic classes. Two PCs of the same level focused on combat are going to be a pretty close match, the Jedi maybe flashier with their powers, but the non-force users can be just as nasty, and do it for a much longer time period.

People have the impression that Jedi are flat out better when from the movies the only people we see that are high level are the Force Users, which makes sense since the story is about the most powerful force user and his fall and redemption. If all you see is high level Jedi wading through armies of cannon fodder of course people will think that the jedi are more powerful than everyone else, that doesn't however mean that there aren't high level soldiers that can do just as well. Greivous, Singh, Fett, etc. rack up tons of jedi kills.

In SAGA its not particularly hard to create combatants that can out fight the average equal level jedi, especially if the character uses weapons that can't be deflected, like flamethrowers, grenades, or simply clicks on autofire.

I'm sorry, but just to clarify, are you saying that Han Solo, Chewbacca, Lando, Boba Fett, etc, etc, are low level/inexperienced characters?

That's that"planning" thing Crit was talking about earlier. As Critias said, the Star Wars series isbuilt around th4 Jedi being more powerful than others. It's the Force, it's a power that others don't have, can hardly even understand (paraphrasing Leia). They are constantly talking about things that "only a Jedi can do". Yes, they are better. Can that make it more difficult for the guy that wants to play the tech head or the pilot to really shine? Yes. Perhaps that player should have taken into account that in the movies, they always cut away to the non-force users, then back again (Example:Every Star Wars movie with the exception of III where they just stayed on the Jedi).

If it is a problem, don't have Jedi in the game stealing the spot light. The Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron series especially are examples f what SW can be without Jedi. But even Rogue Squadron had Corran Horn.

Now, in the West End Games, advancing as a Jedi was expensive and exclusionary to other skills. Much like an SR mage. It's just a little tougher to "Geek the Jedi first." Saga balances the classes and softens the Forceconsiderably. Faced with newer SW material like Force Unleashed where a force user uses the Force on an entire Star Destroyer, or the Jedi Academy series, where a group of Force useres fling multiple Star Destroyers out of the system, that makes little sense to me. Sure, they do it for balance reasons, exactly what fuchs is talking about, keeping it more level. If that's the game you want, go for it. To me though, it's just saying "I don't like that he gets the bigger gun." It's just how SW was created to be. Hell, characters in the stories bitch about it all the time. Seems only right to carry that over to the game system.

another issue is that the true balancing act of a jedi character, the dark side, is a factor thats hard to quantify in rules. And when done, one will always encounter some player that have found a way to game the rules and play "gray", flinging force lightning left and right while dancing on the blurry line between light and dark...

I don't really see why a jedi player would want non-jedi PCs to be weaker - what does he gain? The source material doesn't warrant it at all that exceptional non-force users would be weaker than equal-levelled force users.

Look at episode two: Jango Fett vs. Obi Wan was an equal fight. Mace vs. Jango wasn't an even fight.
In game terms Jango and Obi Wan were equal level, Mace was much higher level.

PCs play heroic characters, not mooks or NPCs. Jedi PCs can mow down NPcs as they please - as can any other PC. When they clash, jedi shouldn't be inherently better. That's bad design.

Having played D6 extensively, I have to point out that beginning Force using characters were terrible. They had to sacrifice Attribute dice to get their starting Force Skills. That means that they were - at their core - inferior beings at several basic tasks just for the rudimentary capacity to use the Force. Add in the really high costs of advancing the Force skills, and it took a very long time before a Jedi could have 6D or higher in all three force skills. And, IMO, a Jedi with less than 6D in all three Force skills is not going to threaten game balance except on the turns he/she spends a Force Point, but when doing that, everyone in that system breaks it for the needs of cool.

My playgroup just put a 1 year long game of SAGA to the side for a bit.

I think non-Jedi are comparable, and can occasionally excel, over Jedi characters. The Noble, in paticular, has a slew of useful party buffs, and can be quite effective outside of combat (to say nothing of the ridonkulous amount of money their Wealth talent gets them at later levels). I played a Soldier myself, and by 10th level was quite a bit scarier than my equal level Jedi Knight compatriot. Decked out Mandalorian Armor helps...must do Ms. Traviss proud.

Someone above mentioned SAGA was complicated. I understand everyone has a different view of what is or isn't complicated, but I was numb with boredom as far as system mechanics went for most of the game. There's far less crunch than D&D 3.5, a little less than d20 StarWars, and it might as well be rock-paper-scissors compared to any edition of Shadowrun.

That is great to hear. I finally picked up the main book on Saturday, driving through the first snowfall in North Jersey in the process. Shadowrun is a fantastic world but in between all of the rulings, rigging, hacking, magic, combat rules and culture the world and system have to offer, I found myself getting really stressed out, burnt out and overwhelmed being a game master.

I was hoping for a easier game to grasp mechanic wise, so this is very encouraging to read.

Its a good, balanced system. There's a strong dependence on to-hit and defense numbers. My goal ('roll' playing wise) for my character was maximizing my to-hit number and my defenses. I was at the point where we stopped that I could easily force opponents to need to crit to hit me - even higher level Jedi. Sadly, autofire gets around that.

So, admittedly, my character was kind of boring on paper, which likely colors my perception of the game. Jedi and Nobles have a lot more 'stuff' to do. And starship pilots get similar 'powers' to the Jedi.

I will say I don't remember a single, drawn out rules discussion during the year we played. Its a really streamlined system.

I just hate that fucking d20, man.

Eh? In my experience with SAGA, higher level Force users tend to have abilities that can push those to-hits and defenses even higher than possible for a non-Force user and can access 1 crit per encounter.

We stopped at level 10. My Reflex defense w/o using Melee Defense was...hmm, 33? Melee defense for 5 gets me to 38. +18 to-hit rolls are about where a melee focused Jedi should be around 12th level w/o powers. Guesstimation on my part (+12 BA, +4 from STR/DEX, +1 from self-built lightsaber, +1 from Weapon Focus).

I had actually just taken a level in Jedi (GM told me I was latent force sensitive, like my brother), so I had the cheezball DR10 ability too. Screw you, grenades and autofire!

When the d20 wasn't actively opposing me, I also hit like a medium size freight train.

Of course, the Jedi could just stun me, force whirlwind, force grip, etc. This is Star Wars after all, we all know who the stars are.

The laser-sword wielding genetic ubermensch?

Isn't 38 on the low side? I guesstimate a level 10 Ref Def monkey build should be in the mid 40s or so and that is what I build my combat characters of equivalent level to takedown.

With Force powers, that to hit can be a whole lot more - Prescience for +3, Dark Rage for +6, Battle Strike for +1... And at level 13, Jedi Master - Serenity for auto-crit.

Well, I've been out munchkined

I didn't go solely for defense. I suppose I could have taken another level of Martial Arts, and another armor talent...but I already felt my character was a bit too much focused as is.

Forgot about Dark Rage. It's super twinky, so I suppose I just blotted it out.