Star Wars: Saga Edition Review Options

[Fuchs]

D6 is pretty straight forward as to the rules. All the test more or less use the same system. Star ship stats break down really easily, so you can glance and compare on those very fast. Really the only thing that takes a lot of memory is force powers. I think the biggest difference in D6 to D20 is how powerful the Force is in D6. Basically, if you're not a jedi and you're going against a skilled one , you're in serious trouble, unless you're dan smart about it. Thing is, that's how it's presented in the fiction. Sort of like "Geek the mage first."

Which is a bad thing in my opinion - a game should offer balanced characters, not one god class and henchmen for the rest. Having jedi be stronger than other heroes is bad.

[Critias]

Which is a bad thing in my opinion - a game should offer balanced characters, not one god class and henchmen for the rest. Having jedi be stronger than other heroes is bad.

Right, because the Jedi characters certainly don't dominate the source material, after all.

[Paul]

I enjoyed SWSE for what it was, but we only played for a few weeks, and mainly for novelty purposes.

[Fuchs]

Right, because the Jedi characters certainly don't dominate the source material, after all.

All player characters should be of equal power - after all, we're playing heroes, character that are a cut above the norm. There is no reason at all to make some PCs better than others just for using a lightsaber and force powers.

[Critias]

All player characters should be of equal power - after all, we're playing heroes, character that are a cut above the norm. There is no reason at all to make some PCs better than others just for using a lightsaber and force powers.

Unless, that is, you're okay with ignoring a little bit of game balance in exchange for staying true to the source material. A Jedi that's a cut above the norm is still going to be more potent -- in his element -- than a smuggler or fighter pilot that's a cut above his norm. That's just how the setting is.

The job of the GM is to make sure that the Jedi isn't always in his element, that not every adventure is solved by what the Jedi's chosen to be good at, etc, etc. There's just no denying that a skilled Jedi character will totally eat face in melee -- stacking Jedi upkeep powers with the base power of a Lightsaber and adding Jedi-only attributes to attack and damage rolls, for instance -- but if all a game ever does is engage in melee combat, there's something wrong. The old D6 system is pretty fast and loose with some stuff (like Contacts, compared to Shadowrun), though, and there are still plenty of opportunities for gamblers, smugglers, pirates, bounty hunters, and whatever else you want to play to shine.

But shining isn't the same as being more powerful.

[Fuchs]

Unless, that is, you're okay with ignoring a little bit of game balance in exchange for staying true to the source material. A Jedi that's a cut above the norm is still going to be more potent -- in his element -- than a smuggler or fighter pilot that's a cut above his norm. That's just how the setting is.

The job of the GM is to make sure that the Jedi isn't always in his element, that not every adventure is solved by what the Jedi's chosen to be good at, etc, etc. There's just no denying that a skilled Jedi character will totally eat face in melee -- stacking Jedi upkeep powers with the base power of a Lightsaber and adding Jedi-only attributes to attack and damage rolls, for instance -- but if all a game ever does is engage in melee combat, there's something wrong. The old D6 system is pretty fast and loose with some stuff (like Contacts, compared to Shadowrun), though, and there are still plenty of opportunities for gamblers, smugglers, pirates, bounty hunters, and whatever else you want to play to shine.

But shining isn't the same as being more powerful.

I disagree. There is no reason at all why player characters non-jedi would have to be weaker than PC-jedi - the source material never says that all jedi are more powerful than everyone else. I do not know why you'd think that. The best player character jedi can be of equal power as the best non-jedi, and the Star Wars universe is not touched at all.

[Paul]

Seriously? We're arguing why Jedi are cooler than everyone else in a Star Wars game?

[Embers]

In SAGA equal level jedi (and other force users) and non-jedi can be pretty even in terms of ability. Look at what you see in the movies and novels though, what you see are Jedi on the edge of being Knights(7th level) or Masters (Level 13+) going against Storm Troopers (Nonheroic 4), and Clone Troopers (Non-heroic 6). The reason Jedi tend to wipe the floor with anyone else is that we only see the ones who are the real bad asses that are a lot higher level than their opposition who have been on years worth of back to back missions. It'd be like putting a 400 BP character against a 400BP character that has 100-200 karma on top.

[Critias]

I disagree. There is no reason at all why player characters non-jedi would have to be weaker than PC-jedi - the source material never says that all jedi are more powerful than everyone else. I do not know why you'd think that. The best player character jedi can be of equal power as the best non-jedi, and the Star Wars universe is not touched at all.

Which is why non-Force-wielders constantly kick Jedi's ass in lightsaber duels all over the place in the movies and comics, right?

Seriously, I don't know how you can even argue something like this. In the source material, Jedi (by which I also mean Sith, and other active Force wielders) are presented to us as remarkably badass. Period. For better or worse, Jedi dominate the stories they're in, are the central heroes and villains of every major story, and can single-handedly sway a battle. Any non-Jedi who can stand up to one is the very best at what he does, is clever enough to stack the deck in his favor, has a massive technological advantage, or all of the above (see Boba Fett, for instance). That's just how it is.

I think it's okay for an RPG, as such, to throw balance out the window a little bit if and only if it's doing so to stay true to the source material. In a comic book superhero RPG, it's Batman that kicks most of the ass, not Robin or Alfred. Superman saves the day, not Lois and Jimmy. Iron Man is awesome, not Pepper Potts. Is it fair? Not entirely. Is it true to the setting? Absolutely.

If you don't like it, that's fine. I just think it's silly to say that I'm wrong for saying that's how it is.

[Particle_Beam]

Which is why non-Force-wielders constantly kick Jedi's ass in lightsaber duels all over the place in the movies and comics, right?

Appearantly, Grievous was. Of course, one of his foes is an expy of Shaggy from Scooby Doo, so perhaps it might not have been that difficult to defeat the jedi... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Any non-Jedi who can stand up to one is the very best at what he does, is clever enough to stack the deck in his favor, has a massive technological advantage, or all of the above (see Boba Fett, for instance). That's just how it is.

I'd wager that those would be the non-jedi player characters. Capable of being on par with the jedi player character by being supersmart, superstrong, super-connected, super-rich, or super-equipped, and whatever ability equals the theoretical discrepancy between Luke (when he's a jedi acknoledged by Yoda) and Han Solo (who's spent some time sleeping in carbonite).

And of course, the jedi player character can't be everywhere, and the best thing for a gm would be to take some clues from "Return of the Jedi". Only Luke could defeat his daddy and tell him he's forgiven when they both throw down wrinkle-face Dark-Side-ious /Darth Sidious/the Grand Poobah Palpatine some shaft. But Luke can't also blow up the shield generator in the same time, and he can't fly with his x-wing into the core of the second death star to pulverize it (again). Those absolutely equally important things are done by his more mundane pals Han, Lando, Chewie, R2-D2, C3PO Wedge, and Leia (not having manifested the Force herself yet).

One should try to create situations where the non-jedi should also be needed.

That's why stupid and totally mundane Batman is still useful compared to the Martian Manhunter, Superman, any of the Green Lanterns, Wonderwoman, and any other of the billions of superheroes with super-abilities other than being crazy prepared (which might or might not be a superpower itself, making Batman a mutant too, haha). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[toturi]

In SAGA equal level jedi (and other force users) and non-jedi can be pretty even in terms of ability. Look at what you see in the movies and novels though, what you see are Jedi on the edge of being Knights(7th level) or Masters (Level 13+) going against Storm Troopers (Nonheroic 4), and Clone Troopers (Non-heroic 6). The reason Jedi tend to wipe the floor with anyone else is that we only see the ones who are the real bad asses that are a lot higher level than their opposition who have been on years worth of back to back missions. It'd be like putting a 400 BP character against a 400BP character that has 100-200 karma on top.

Eh? NH's are 1/3 equivalent of heroic classes. Padawans and Jedi Knights could theorectically be created using the Non-heroic class but the RPG source material suggests that Padawans are gain experience as fast as their masters and when they finally hit level 7, they trade in their NH classes for Jedi+Jedi Knight classes. The NH Jedi are the "normal" guys, the guys you do not see, the not-Padawan material half-pass-sixes that get dumped into the Jedi "subsidiaries". The jedi-class Jedis (like the PCs) are the stars of the show - which is why Asoka wasn't pleased with her "guard" duty.

Comparing Clone Troopers or even ARCs or Clone Commanders like Cody and Rex to Jedi is like pitting Rating 3 Grunts or Inferior NPCs against 400 BP characters with karma. Anything short of a very lucky hit isn't likely to get through.

[Embers]

I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying there Toturi. Any hero from a Heroic class is likely going to be able to wade through level appropriate non-heroics. Non-heroics have 1/3rd of the HP, and generally much worse defenses. I was commenting on the balance between the Heroic classes. Two PCs of the same level focused on combat are going to be a pretty close match, the Jedi maybe flashier with their powers, but the non-force users can be just as nasty, and do it for a much longer time period.

People have the impression that Jedi are flat out better when from the movies the only people we see that are high level are the Force Users, which makes sense since the story is about the most powerful force user and his fall and redemption. If all you see is high level Jedi wading through armies of cannon fodder of course people will think that the jedi are more powerful than everyone else, that doesn't however mean that there aren't high level soldiers that can do just as well. Greivous, Singh, Fett, etc. rack up tons of jedi kills.

In SAGA its not particularly hard to create combatants that can out fight the average equal level jedi, especially if the character uses weapons that can't be deflected, like flamethrowers, grenades, or simply clicks on autofire.

[Critias]

People have the impression that Jedi are flat out better when from the movies the only people we see that are high level are the Force Users...

I'm sorry, but just to clarify, are you saying that Han Solo, Chewbacca, Lando, Boba Fett, etc, etc, are low level/inexperienced characters?

[fistandantilus4....]

especially if the character uses weapons that can't be deflected, like flamethrowers, grenades, or simply clicks on autofire.

That's that"planning" thing Crit was talking about earlier. As Critias said, the Star Wars series isbuilt around th4 Jedi being more powerful than others. It's the Force, it's a power that others don't have, can hardly even understand (paraphrasing Leia). They are constantly talking about things that "only a Jedi can do". Yes, they are better. Can that make it more difficult for the guy that wants to play the tech head or the pilot to really shine? Yes. Perhaps that player should have taken into account that in the movies, they always cut away to the non-force users, then back again (Example:Every Star Wars movie with the exception of III where they just stayed on the Jedi).

If it is a problem, don't have Jedi in the game stealing the spot light. The Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron series especially are examples f what SW can be without Jedi. But even Rogue Squadron had Corran Horn.

Now, in the West End Games, advancing as a Jedi was expensive and exclusionary to other skills. Much like an SR mage. It's just a little tougher to "Geek the Jedi first." Saga balances the classes and softens the Forceconsiderably. Faced with newer SW material like Force Unleashed where a force user uses the Force on an entire Star Destroyer, or the Jedi Academy series, where a group of Force useres fling multiple Star Destroyers out of the system, that makes little sense to me. Sure, they do it for balance reasons, exactly what fuchs is talking about, keeping it more level. If that's the game you want, go for it. To me though, it's just saying "I don't like that he gets the bigger gun." It's just how SW was created to be. Hell, characters in the stories bitch about it all the time. Seems only right to carry that over to the game system.

[hobgoblin]

another issue is that the true balancing act of a jedi character, the dark side, is a factor thats hard to quantify in rules. And when done, one will always encounter some player that have found a way to game the rules and play "gray", flinging force lightning left and right while dancing on the blurry line between light and dark...

[Fuchs]

I don't really see why a jedi player would want non-jedi PCs to be weaker - what does he gain? The source material doesn't warrant it at all that exceptional non-force users would be weaker than equal-levelled force users.

Look at episode two: Jango Fett vs. Obi Wan was an equal fight. Mace vs. Jango wasn't an even fight.
In game terms Jango and Obi Wan were equal level, Mace was much higher level.

PCs play heroic characters, not mooks or NPCs. Jedi PCs can mow down NPcs as they please - as can any other PC. When they clash, jedi shouldn't be inherently better. That's bad design.

[HappyDaze]

Having played D6 extensively, I have to point out that beginning Force using characters were terrible. They had to sacrifice Attribute dice to get their starting Force Skills. That means that they were - at their core - inferior beings at several basic tasks just for the rudimentary capacity to use the Force. Add in the really high costs of advancing the Force skills, and it took a very long time before a Jedi could have 6D or higher in all three force skills. And, IMO, a Jedi with less than 6D in all three Force skills is not going to threaten game balance except on the turns he/she spends a Force Point, but when doing that, everyone in that system breaks it for the needs of cool.

[Bach]

My playgroup just put a 1 year long game of SAGA to the side for a bit.

I think non-Jedi are comparable, and can occasionally excel, over Jedi characters. The Noble, in paticular, has a slew of useful party buffs, and can be quite effective outside of combat (to say nothing of the ridonkulous amount of money their Wealth talent gets them at later levels). I played a Soldier myself, and by 10th level was quite a bit scarier than my equal level Jedi Knight compatriot. Decked out Mandalorian Armor helps...must do Ms. Traviss proud. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Someone above mentioned SAGA was complicated. I understand everyone has a different view of what is or isn't complicated, but I was numb with boredom as far as system mechanics went for most of the game. There's far less crunch than D&D 3.5, a little less than d20 StarWars, and it might as well be rock-paper-scissors compared to any edition of Shadowrun.

[SincereAgape]

Someone above mentioned SAGA was complicated. I understand everyone has a different view of what is or isn't complicated, but I was numb with boredom as far as system mechanics went for most of the game. There's far less crunch than D&D 3.5, a little less than d20 StarWars, and it might as well be rock-paper-scissors compared to any edition of Shadowrun.

That is great to hear. I finally picked up the main book on Saturday, driving through the first snowfall in North Jersey in the process. Shadowrun is a fantastic world but in between all of the rulings, rigging, hacking, magic, combat rules and culture the world and system have to offer, I found myself getting really stressed out, burnt out and overwhelmed being a game master.

I was hoping for a easier game to grasp mechanic wise, so this is very encouraging to read.

[Bach]

Its a good, balanced system. There's a strong dependence on to-hit and defense numbers. My goal ('roll' playing wise) for my character was maximizing my to-hit number and my defenses. I was at the point where we stopped that I could easily force opponents to need to crit to hit me - even higher level Jedi. Sadly, autofire gets around that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

So, admittedly, my character was kind of boring on paper, which likely colors my perception of the game. Jedi and Nobles have a lot more 'stuff' to do. And starship pilots get similar 'powers' to the Jedi.

I will say I don't remember a single, drawn out rules discussion during the year we played. Its a really streamlined system.

I just hate that fucking d20, man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[toturi]

Its a good, balanced system. There's a strong dependence on to-hit and defense numbers. My goal ('roll' playing wise) for my character was maximizing my to-hit number and my defenses. I was at the point where we stopped that I could easily force opponents to need to crit to hit me - even higher level Jedi. Sadly, autofire gets around that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

So, admittedly, my character was kind of boring on paper, which likely colors my perception of the game. Jedi and Nobles have a lot more 'stuff' to do. And starship pilots get similar 'powers' to the Jedi.

Eh? In my experience with SAGA, higher level Force users tend to have abilities that can push those to-hits and defenses even higher than possible for a non-Force user and can access 1 crit per encounter.

[Bach]

Eh? In my experience with SAGA, higher level Force users tend to have abilities that can push those to-hits and defenses even higher than possible for a non-Force user and can access 1 crit per encounter.

We stopped at level 10. My Reflex defense w/o using Melee Defense was...hmm, 33? Melee defense for 5 gets me to 38. +18 to-hit rolls are about where a melee focused Jedi should be around 12th level w/o powers. Guesstimation on my part (+12 BA, +4 from STR/DEX, +1 from self-built lightsaber, +1 from Weapon Focus).

I had actually just taken a level in Jedi (GM told me I was latent force sensitive, like my brother), so I had the cheezball DR10 ability too. Screw you, grenades and autofire! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

When the d20 wasn't actively opposing me, I also hit like a medium size freight train.

Of course, the Jedi could just stun me, force whirlwind, force grip, etc. This is Star Wars after all, we all know who the stars are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wesley Street]

This is Star Wars after all, we all know who the stars are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The laser-sword wielding genetic ubermensch? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

We stopped at level 10. My Reflex defense w/o using Melee Defense was...hmm, 33? Melee defense for 5 gets me to 38. +18 to-hit rolls are about where a melee focused Jedi should be around 12th level w/o powers. Guesstimation on my part (+12 BA, +4 from STR/DEX, +1 from self-built lightsaber, +1 from Weapon Focus).

I had actually just taken a level in Jedi (GM told me I was latent force sensitive, like my brother), so I had the cheezball DR10 ability too. Screw you, grenades and autofire! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

When the d20 wasn't actively opposing me, I also hit like a medium size freight train.

Of course, the Jedi could just stun me, force whirlwind, force grip, etc. This is Star Wars after all, we all know who the stars are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Isn't 38 on the low side? I guesstimate a level 10 Ref Def monkey build should be in the mid 40s or so and that is what I build my combat characters of equivalent level to takedown.

With Force powers, that to hit can be a whole lot more - Prescience for +3, Dark Rage for +6, Battle Strike for +1... And at level 13, Jedi Master - Serenity for auto-crit.

[Bach]

Isn't 38 on the low side? I guesstimate a level 10 Ref Def monkey build should be in the mid 40s or so and that is what I build my combat characters of equivalent level to takedown.

With Force powers, that to hit can be a whole lot more - Prescience for +3, Dark Rage for +6, Battle Strike for +1... And at level 13, Jedi Master - Serenity for auto-crit.

Well, I've been out munchkined (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I didn't go solely for defense. I suppose I could have taken another level of Martial Arts, and another armor talent...but I already felt my character was a bit too much focused as is.

Forgot about Dark Rage. It's super twinky, so I suppose I just blotted it out.