Security Guards, Or how did we get from Barney to Ninjas. Options

[DireRadiant]

Are all guards the same everywhere?

What happened to distribution curves?

[kzt]

[Cthulhudreams]

[mfb]

the cops don't go in because there's no profit in going in. nobody cares about what goes on in the barrens, as long as it stays contained in the barrens. Stuffer Shack can make a profit, so they restock their stores in the barrens once a week using armored vehicles and guards armed with LMGs.

the economy is black, grey, and corp scrip. you don't need a SIN to use a certified or hacked credstick, or to use paper money backed by corporate stock.

also, i don't believe the barrens are actually walled off, at least not by a single wall. the communities surrounding the barrens might wall themselves off, creating a sort of patchwork blockade, but i don't think i've read anywhere that the barrens are fully walled off.

[nezumi]

Like mfb said. Where ever there is profit to be made, someone will find a way to make it. Kwik-E-Mart is in a unique position in that it's had decades of experience dealing with running stores in crime-ridden areas, and so has the background to properly secure and run such stores, as well as a reputation for not having any cash on hand.

I imagine you'll also have things like mafia backed script, but whatever it is, the Kwik-E-Mart is unlikely to accept actual bills. They want something that can't be swiped.

[Sma]

Also paying the local gang to make sure you're not robbed regularly is just like paying Lone Star too keep an eye open.

Just because the local power structure isn't run by the state or a corp, does not mean there is no power structure at all. Just that the local lawyers are more likely to break your legs instead of serving you a court order.

[Mercer]

Black Hawk Down has a pretty good example of Rating Z sprawl.

You know, if you're gang (crime family, pack of ghouls, toxic cabal, right wing death squad) is running things in a particular neighborhood, that part of the Rating Z sprawl is probably the safest place on the continent for you to be. Sure, there's the danger of other factions moving on your ground, but your people have whatever defenses they can devise. Anywhere else in the city, you're pretty much just meat for freaks.

Edit: How embarrassing. Well, if anyone wanted to read my review of DOOM: The Movie, you should have followed the now corrected link.

[Grinder]

Your link leads to a forum and not a movie-related page.

[Big D]

Gee, this thread sounds familiar. It's just like the "average soldier" thread! :)

If you want to run cost/benefit on security, you'll pretty quickly run into the issue that it's cheap and effective to have lots of cheap sensors and few high-value assets on-site (in general), with HTR teams standing by. Since most of the time, any given facility is not being broken into, this lets you leverage your assets.

However, since sensors aren't foolproof, and don't stop the terminally stupid, a couple of cheap meat bodies here and there can help give directions to the lost, deter the riff-raff, and (if they're good or lucky enough) hit the big red (wired, off-network) button to call in the HTRs just in case the sensors have been spoofed. Basically, Corp Bouncers. :P

You also quickly get into the issue of whether the guards are wired. If turnover is rapid, guards plan to move on to something else, or the pay is so pathetic that they can't afford basic wire (in which case, how does the corp trust them not to get paid off by runners?), then I could see "naked" guards. Otherwise? It's the same deal as with the soldier/cop threads. Wired Reflexes 2 + Skillwires 3 + basic cybereyes with IR/Thermal is relatively cheap. Don't forget that cybereyes also come with a data recorder, so the corp can replay what happened when the guard got geeked (but make sure guards who see sensitive areas don't have them, or runners will make house calls as part of their legwork).

As with the other threads, you're going to have to make some stuff up, based on what kind of game you want to play, and how gritty you want the world to feel. It's not going to all make sense, and you'll have to paper over a few things whichever way you lean.

[cx2]

Just make them upload their cybereye footage as they clock off ;)

I could certainly imagine wired 1 being used for lower end guards, though perhaps not the bottom of the barrel types. Add in some cyber eyes or contacts, a Fechetti 600 and a armour vest (jacket if you're feeling flush). Good enough to guard a almost nil risk target from low grade crime. It is worth noting that probably 99% or more of guards never see a runner in their lives, they're probably more likely to be behind one in the queue at the local stuffer shack while they're off duty than face a run.

[Rudeboy]

The thing that instantly jumps out in my head in this thread is the separation of society into rich and well educated suits and sinless. I don't have the latest edition, but unless things have changed corps have plenty of middlemen and part of the bennies of working for a corp is that they house you, educate your children, give you health care, etc. Your corp is your government. And that's not just for the CEO, the Janitor lives in Hamburgler Village. Sure, it's not as McEstates down the road, but it ain't sleeping under a bridge, and it's got some security. Most of SR deals with people who aren't under corporate license, but I would think this is where the bulk of your sec guards are going to come from. Or at least the ones who matter.

Disposable security will surely be around, and this is where your ex-gangers come in, but for real security, they are going to be people who were corp born but didn't pass the exams (Or wanted a more adventurous life) to get into the world of the suits. Some will be borderline, some might have corporate aspirations...as heads of security are pretty important people. CorpSec heads are basically highly respected generals, with armies to command. Top security people are going to be highly paid, highly respected (and/or feared). This would be doubly so in the environment of corporate espionage and sabotage that exists.

[cx2]

Good point. I could also imagine sec guards being people who failed entry into the military, or even Lone Star etc if you are talking about the disposable types.

[Penta]

See, this is where I'm probably...a heretic to a lot of people.

Except for researchers, essential staff, or senior executives, I don't see corps as needing or wanting to provide cradle-to-grave services like that, or things like housing, schooling, etc.

Why? Because the open market can do it so much better and cheaper, and even if the corp is extraterritorial, they (like embassies) are limited in their extraterritoriality as a matter of practicality.

They still draw power from the local grid (Renraku Arcology being the exception that proves the rule), still have the same trash pickup (at curbside) as everybody else, still use the same roads, water system, etc.

Why, in God's name, would they want to go to the expense of providing corporate schooling, corporate housing for all employees, corporate churches, etc?

Even if you charge far above market price, you can't make it into a profit center. (If your people PAY far above market just because it's corporate, they're braindead, and you have OTHER problems)

I may be foolish, but I see corporate extraterritoriality as just being "Well, corporations rated AA or better don't necessarily have to listen to government" (though, in practice, they will, 9 times out of 10, pay heed on zoning, planning, etc. stuff, because it's better for PR and all-around simpler in terms of avoiding a tragedy of the commons), not "ZOMG, corporations do everything including feed clothe house and otherwise provide for everybody from the CEO to the janitor".

No.

If that was remotely profitable, people would have done that already IRL and still be doing it.

They don't. Company Towns (a la Northeastern PA and other coal mining regions) were a fad, NOT something conducive to being listed on a stock exchange, and really not something that will ever be repeated. Why?

Because they made no sense.

I know a lot's different in SR, but corporations are still corporations. They're still in hock to quarterly earnings statements, etc.

(To those who protest that the megacorps aren't listed: Yes, they are. Damien Knight only owns...Last I checked, 22% of Ares shares or so? We know NeoNET is publicly-traded. So on and so forth.

It'd be impossible, actually, to -fund- a megacorp *without* being listed. You could *never* generate that much private capital.)

[Grinder]

[Penta]

Even Corp-Scrip doesn't change the equation. Corp Scrip is, IIRC, pegged to the Nuyen. And how, Grinder, would you restrict people to only corp-run shops? Remember, these are in Major Urban Areas, not in the backwoods like a NEPA coalmining town.

That's the only situation that fallacy works: When ALL corporate sites are in the middle of nowhere.

(It's scrip, not script, btw. Pet peeve.)

[Grinder]

I always assumed that no other corp would accept other corp-scrip than it's own? You can't pay in an Ares-shop with Renraku-scrip.

[blood_kite]

[Irian]

[Moon-Hawk]

The corp will gladly exchange your corp-scrip for Nuyen. Banks could do it, too, but the corp would rather you do it with them so that they can keep the surcharge and get some of that money back. Probably makes it easier to keep an eye on employees, too. Why does Mr. Smith exchange 200Y every Friday night and leave the arcology for two hours? hmmmm.

[Apathy]

Shadowrun is the product of our 80's culture, and part of that culture (along with punks in mohawks) was a fascination with japanese corporate culture of that era. Employees were part of the corporate 'family', and were expected to put family before themselves. The corporation gets a huge amount of control over the employee's lives, and they're expected to do as they're told and be happy for the opportunity. In exchange, the corporate family looks after them, and they are basically employed for life.

Of course, it's not true any more, and might not have been true even back then, but that was the perception.

Having corps own your home/school/etc is a natural extension of this.

[blood_kite]

[Mercer]

Or, Corp Scrip could have a discount at corp stores. ("It's Ares Fun Money. Just like regular Money, but Fun!") If employees are paid in corp scrip that's pegged to the nuyen, but they get a 10-20% discount at the company store then that's where the bulk of their money is going to be spent. There's no restriction on where the employee spends their cash, but they have a real incentive to keep it in-house.

When it comes to security guards above the doorknob-rattler level, it seems like the corps would want to take care of them. A security guard you can't trust doesn't make you very secure. I am reminded of the setup in Goodfellas where the airport guards would call the mobsters when a good shipment was coming in. As long as maintaining a competant security force was cheaper than replacing the lost and stolen items, otherwise, why bother?

Now, when it comes to stuff that can't be so easily replaced or absorbed by insurance (which is probably most of what the runners will deal with), the I think thats when you get to the well-trained, well-motivated security force.

[nezumi]

Remember that open market capitalism is *NOT GOOD* for companies. Serious competition cuts into profits. In Shadowrun, the corporations got powerful and smart enough fast enough that they realized globalization like we see now is to be avoided. While the walls between nations were crumbling, allowing the market to spread, the corporations were building new ones building off that same market, and these ones have been effective. In Shadowrun, there is no Linux. In 2000 people had a choice between $400 for Windows or $450 for Apple. They could pay $100 for Word or $100 for WordPerfect, but OpenOffice would never threaten either. You could pay $20 for Internet Explorer or $20 for Opera, but Firefox was never released.

As a result, as computer technology increased, the corporations kept pushing the costs of these UP, not down, keeping the cost of a host out of the reach of most low-level businesses, while they sabotaged or prosecuted individuals who would threaten this stranglehold. There are no Indian startups in Shadowrun. In the UCAS, an entrepeneur cannot register a new business without wading through tremendous red tape and tons of fees. It's easier to join up with big biz and work under their umbrella. This allows a 'free market' between the big corporations, without allowing them to actually suffer severe market pressures. The corporations won, we managed to keep our jobs from being outsourced. Go us!

Remember, money cannot buy ideologies, loyalty or belief. Those have to be bred. As long as we have people raised in corporate enclaves, in corporate schools, they'll never realize how the corporations have twisted the system to keep themselves in power. Letting people live their own lives exposed to market pressure is a guarantee they'll wonder why they can't have more of a hand in them.

[Rudeboy]

Well, corp wage-slaves are one of the backbones of SR. I tend to de-emphasize the whole 'corps as replacements for government' thing myself, but still, that is the SR thing. Without all the government regulation and control, they can make most anything profitable. Supposedly. Just take the privatization of vital services that is slowly working its way through the US now and push it to the extremes.

That who privatization thing, the balkanization of the world (And even local cities) leads to a lot less stable living environment. A lot more potential for 'bad things' to happen. When a major city has five or six separate police forces, with their own rules and regulation, with their own agendas, with minimal governmental pressure or control...it would be a security nightmare. And that is made even worse when you add in that it's common practice to play dirty pool.

And if dirty pool is accepted at the top level, I would imagine it trickles all the way down the ladder. Does that Chikin Lord across the street get more biz than your Chicken King? If they don't have more than a door rattler for security, you could get rid of your competition pretty easily. It's the whole culture, so I'm going to guess that security is going to be in ridiculously higher demand than what we've got these days.

[gknoy]