Most current security guards in the world are not the epitome of professionalism. Current security guarding interests (bouncers!) in Australia are often in many cases actually run by organized crime. While some guards are consummate professionals, there is a lot of dodgy work being done out there.
When we move on to more professional and higher paid areas such as the military and Police we are still suffering from a chronic shortage of personnel, and the military was having difficulties meeting recruiting targets.
What happened to sec guards in the intervening years to make professional police/security a much more appealing profession. Did pay rates just increase massively in the face of the dire security situations? And a worsening security situation actually increases the risk of these jobs which makes them less likely to attract prime candidates for the same money. Why isn't corp sec at most sites run by Barney?
Edit: Hell, the professional mercenary game is pretty dodgy at times too.
Full Version: Security Guards
Most security in SRworld is pretty crappy. Not worthless, but hardly top notch. Worse, they are mostly armed. It's always scary when you have people whose best paying opportunity is a $9/hour guard and they give them a gun. But they are present and that offers a deterrent. You average criminal is mostly interested in easy targets. People who shoot back isn't what he's looking for. And they will call for help and if you manage to kill them it's likely to get the organized and effective people looking for you.
However, most (the vast majority) of the sites with crappy, worthless security guards also don't have magical security. But most of the sites that people pay serious bucks to shadowrunners to hit do have magical security, and also don't have crappy, worthless security. They are willing to pay $25/hour plus bennies to have competent guards who know what they are doing.
KE security isn't cheap and they don't work alone. So if you are not doing something that is worth paying at least million bucks a year to protect you won't have KE on site. You might have KE do an alarm system and magical defenses (wards, spirits) with a KE response team showing up to alarms for a lot less, but it's still not cheap.
However, most (the vast majority) of the sites with crappy, worthless security guards also don't have magical security. But most of the sites that people pay serious bucks to shadowrunners to hit do have magical security, and also don't have crappy, worthless security. They are willing to pay $25/hour plus bennies to have competent guards who know what they are doing.
KE security isn't cheap and they don't work alone. So if you are not doing something that is worth paying at least million bucks a year to protect you won't have KE on site. You might have KE do an alarm system and magical defenses (wards, spirits) with a KE response team showing up to alarms for a lot less, but it's still not cheap.
I think it's really two things. The first, and probably most important comes from a purely meta-game standpoint. PC's need mooks to kill. Also if the security worked the way it does in real life the game would be pretty boring since the PC's would kill the single security guard manning the desk, have free reign over the facility, do what they have to do and leave before anyone responds. Then the corps would turn around go over it with a fine tooth comb and either send a black ops squad to arrest the runners or slam a powerbolt though the material link. Basically the PC's hit the "I win" button but unless they do entire runs wearing Intel "bunny suits" then their hoops are fried.
The second is from a more RP standpoint and has to do with the dystopian nature of Shadowrun. Remember at it's heart Shadowrun is a child of the 80's and with the advancement in robotics and computers going on in the 80's people thought that both blue and white collar jobs were threatened. Carrying that forward it makes sense that 90% of blue collar jobs have been replaced with robots or drones and probably a good 50% of white collar jobs have been lost too. However hiring meat bodies to protect those drones robots, and people important enough to have a cubicle is still big business.
The second is from a more RP standpoint and has to do with the dystopian nature of Shadowrun. Remember at it's heart Shadowrun is a child of the 80's and with the advancement in robotics and computers going on in the 80's people thought that both blue and white collar jobs were threatened. Carrying that forward it makes sense that 90% of blue collar jobs have been replaced with robots or drones and probably a good 50% of white collar jobs have been lost too. However hiring meat bodies to protect those drones robots, and people important enough to have a cubicle is still big business.
I'd say that looking at the security guard at the mall is not the best comparison for our 2070 dystopian guards. Instead, they probably compare better to the guards around oil pumping and storage depots in Africa.
- A rich corporation with expensive assets and 'protected' people.
- Surrounded by large number of desperately poor and somewhat hostile people.
- With the support of the local government, making them somewhat 'above the law'.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Sep 17 2007, 08:27 AM) |
I'd say that looking at the security guard at the mall is not the best comparison for our 2070 dystopian guards. Instead, they probably compare better to the guards around oil pumping and storage depots in Africa.
|
Society doesn't even begin to function if the desperately poor are massively the majority of society.
But ignoring all that, modern soldiers are actually pretty well paid, quite well trained etc, etc - but we still miss recruitment targets in the real world all the time. Where the hell are you getting the top professionals to be security guards from, especially if the vast seething sea of humanity is woefully poor - because said poor people are not going to provide the raw material to become sec guards, and the rich people won't want to do it.
Edit: I'm assuming said poor people are actually seriously poverty line etc in which case there is the strong possibility of having their growth potential stunted by lack of nutrition (Even one famine season while you are young can really knock your intellect on the head, which is why north korea is boned) and without indepth education it seems unreasonable to expect that you could recruit people from there and get good results.
So who are the guards then? or are there just a tiny number of them massively suplemented with technology - so you can pay them lots and have drones take all the risks.
Kzt's take is probably reasonable, but I'm still not clear on where the people are coming from - the labour pool is smaller, because of the Sinless, and already today we cannot find enough top people to undertake risky careers with bennies (what the army is) and the situation is a hell of a lot more risky in 2070.
Maybe anyone including the Sinless can become an enlisted person or get into a sec guard if they can get high enough scores on corp run appittude tests no questions asked.
My basic question is: today we have trouble filling these roles. The demand in 2070 is likely to have increased (everyone still has an army AND corp security has taken off massively), but the size of the labour pool has decreased (sinless) so where are they finding good people for a profession that isn't meeting peoples requirements for a profession today, let alone in 2070.
All AAA would have their own training facilities for their guards.
For a low security facility, a 2 or 3 week formation would be enought, with some regular training each year (like 1 week seminar).
For better training, it would be monthes or years, like in today's modern armies (after all, security personel in a mega corp is army like).
For security corps (lone star, KE) they'd have inherited the training facilities ran by the government. since there are no more national police forces (at least in UCAS) there is no need for the state to run training programs.
Today's cops arent trained enought.
Tomorow's cops will be even worse trained (it costs too much).
Elite security personel would be very well trained, either by their corp, or specialised corporation that provide training services.
As to who they hire ? Havent you seen the Lone Star book ? i remember an announcement basicaly saying "Join the star, you'll have a badge and a gun, and you'll have the law with you".
So i'd say that the average cop would be a bully that wanted a legal argument to do his favourite sport.
The average security guard would be a bully not intelligent enought to pass the standard tests to join the Lone Star/KE ...
For a low security facility, a 2 or 3 week formation would be enought, with some regular training each year (like 1 week seminar).
For better training, it would be monthes or years, like in today's modern armies (after all, security personel in a mega corp is army like).
For security corps (lone star, KE) they'd have inherited the training facilities ran by the government. since there are no more national police forces (at least in UCAS) there is no need for the state to run training programs.
Today's cops arent trained enought.
Tomorow's cops will be even worse trained (it costs too much).
Elite security personel would be very well trained, either by their corp, or specialised corporation that provide training services.
As to who they hire ? Havent you seen the Lone Star book ? i remember an announcement basicaly saying "Join the star, you'll have a badge and a gun, and you'll have the law with you".
So i'd say that the average cop would be a bully that wanted a legal argument to do his favourite sport.
The average security guard would be a bully not intelligent enought to pass the standard tests to join the Lone Star/KE ...
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Society doesn't even begin to function if the desperately poor are massively the majority of society. ...because said poor people are not going to provide the raw material to become sec guards, and the rich people won't want to do it. Edit: I'm assuming said poor people are actually seriously poverty line etc in which case there is the strong possibility of having their growth potential stunted by lack of nutrition (Even one famine season while you are young can really knock your intellect on the head, which is why north korea is boned) and without indepth education it seems unreasonable to expect that you could recruit people from there and get good results. |
Shadowrun would seem to suggest that, while most people are eating soy and krill, they are getting most of their basic nutritional needs met. So malnutrition in the conventional sense is not a problem. You did put in your qualifier (not that I agree with it, mind you. Starved children make for the best guards, IMO. Twisted, deadly, fearless and effective.) however that means your argument doesn't really stand because the qualifier isn't met.
An ork in the hood offered the chance to join one of the most successful gangs in Seattle, a steady paycheck, and the knowledge that any future criminal endeavors he engages in are going to be swept under the rug will likely take it. Three months of brain-dance training and when it's over, you've got a new Lone Star officer ready to patrol his old turf. The difference being that now someone messes with him, he calls in his buddies to break some skulls (if he doesn't do it himself). As long as he remembers who has the hand that feeds him, he's okay.
When I was living in Venezuela, I basically saw this. The police force was miserable and undependable, so everyone middle class or above (and I do mean everyone) had, at minimum, a front door guard. Neighborhoods would hire their own guards and they had no problem getting whatever permits were required to hand the guy an AK. Sure this guy can barely read, and he sure wasn't middle class or above himself, but he knows if anything bad happens to anyone in his neighborhood, he and his family will never have a job again, at least not one as good as what he's got now. He might use his guard powers for other things, to make a little money on the side, but he's only too aware of how precarious his position is.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| The demand in 2070 is likely to have increased (everyone still has an army AND corp security has taken off massively), but the size of the labour pool has decreased (sinless) |
You could grant a SIN for the guys you want to hire if they sign up. Sort of a criminal SIN that's "granted" for SINless criminals, but on the positive side.
Exactly, corps can always sponsor someone for a SIN. You can think of a SIN as an H1 visa, but instead of being able to cross the border, you get to cross the train tracks.
another thing is that one will have levels of security.
day to day may be a old cop.
then there is HTR (high treat response), basically the ones called in when armed people are spotted.
and then its the black ops that officially do not exist...
day to day may be a old cop.
then there is HTR (high treat response), basically the ones called in when armed people are spotted.
and then its the black ops that officially do not exist...
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Sep 17 2007, 08:48 AM) |
| When I was living in Venezuela, I basically saw this. The police force was miserable and undependable, so everyone middle class or above (and I do mean everyone) had, at minimum, a front door guard. Neighborhoods would hire their own guards and they had no problem getting whatever permits were required to hand the guy an AK. Sure this guy can barely read, and he sure wasn't middle class or above himself, but he knows if anything bad happens to anyone in his neighborhood, he and his family will never have a job again, at least not one as good as what he's got now. He might use his guard powers for other things, to make a little money on the side, but he's only too aware of how precarious his position is. |
That's a really good point. I've seen the same thing in Brazil, Ecuador and Argentina (though the latter was to a lesser extent). When you know that if you tuck tail and run you'll be out of a job tomorrow with no prospects of anything else you'll do anything to keep the job even if it just means your family collects the death benefits.
In a related story my dad works in Yemen and would defiantly agree that "security guard" has an entirely different meaning over there than it does here. Sure the security around their plants doesn't make much money but it's all relative. The 300 US a month they make is enough to keep their families fed and a hell of a lot better than the 100 per month they'd make as a day laborer. Plus "security consultants" hired by the company teach you how to use your gun properly, something that is an incredibly valuable skill in the local politics.
the key thing here is to remember that there is a big gap between "most guards" and "most guards that a shadowrunner will encounter."
most guards are chumps with 2-3 points in a firearms skill and average stats. they get paid 9 bucks an hour to keep homeless people and petty thieves from breaking into warehouses and Stuffer Shacks. since most warehouses and Stuffer Shacks don't hold merchandise worthy of a run, most runners aren't going to encounter these guys, except to say hi when they're stopping by Stuffer Shack to get a krillburger.
the guards that most shadowrunners are going to encounter are decently-paid professionals (middle class wages or so) who have made a serious career out of being security guards. they're tough, they're motivated, they're trained, and they're experienced. where do they come from? well, SR is a violent place. there's more call for guys with combat experience. nowadays, a guy might get back from Iraq after finishing his four-year enlisment and go to school to be an accountant. that same guy in 2070 is going to have job offers for security positions showered on him.
most guards are chumps with 2-3 points in a firearms skill and average stats. they get paid 9 bucks an hour to keep homeless people and petty thieves from breaking into warehouses and Stuffer Shacks. since most warehouses and Stuffer Shacks don't hold merchandise worthy of a run, most runners aren't going to encounter these guys, except to say hi when they're stopping by Stuffer Shack to get a krillburger.
the guards that most shadowrunners are going to encounter are decently-paid professionals (middle class wages or so) who have made a serious career out of being security guards. they're tough, they're motivated, they're trained, and they're experienced. where do they come from? well, SR is a violent place. there's more call for guys with combat experience. nowadays, a guy might get back from Iraq after finishing his four-year enlisment and go to school to be an accountant. that same guy in 2070 is going to have job offers for security positions showered on him.
| QUOTE (imperialus) | ||
That's a really good point. I've seen the same thing in Brazil, Ecuador and Argentina (though the latter was to a lesser extent). When you know that if you tuck tail and run you'll be out of a job tomorrow with no prospects of anything else you'll do anything to keep the job even if it just means your family collects the death benefits. In a related story my dad works in Yemen and would defiantly agree that "security guard" has an entirely different meaning over there than it does here. Sure the security around their plants doesn't make much money but it's all relative. The 300 US a month they make is enough to keep their families fed and a hell of a lot better than the 100 per month they'd make as a day laborer. Plus "security consultants" hired by the company teach you how to use your gun properly, something that is an incredibly valuable skill in the local politics. |
See.. the thing with these guys is, that, as you say, he can barely read. So he isn;t going to be intensively technology literate. He is badly educated and his training isn't that hot. He sure isn't very well equipped (A cheap old gun known mostly for its reliability (a good feature I must admit)). Okay maybe he is fed well, but all the other good stuff (training, equipment) just isn't there in the examples you gave.
The other team are the shadow runners who are seriously breaking out multi spectrum vision, UAVS, matrix support, electronic warfare jammers, massive investments in things like improved reflexes, and substantial investment and experience in How To Be Extremely Violent, body armour and all the other good stuff.
Our Barney from Brazil here isn't going to see him coming, let alone be able to stop him. That guy seriously has an AK and a bit of training, whereas the shadow runners are the SAS by comparison.
And Barney from Yemen or whatever is actually guarding a housing complex or oil refinery today - real places where shadow runners would go (do an extraction or sabotage a refinery)
that's the thing, man. if there's this huge market for talented, trained, hardened criminals, there's going to be an even larger market for talented, trained, hardened security professionals. Barney from Brazil is only going to be a Barney if he's some neighborhood watch chump. if he's guarding an oil refinery, he's going to have some solid training and some solid tech toys, because if he doesn't, he's going to get killed by some runner team and the refinery's going to get blowed up (or whatever). nowadays, you don't generally have to worry about freelance specops teams blowing up your refinery, so you can cut corners on your guards' training. in 2070, there are freelance specops teams all over the place, plus corporate and national specops teams. you need serious protection for your refinery, or you're going to lose your investment. today, right now, there simply isn't a strong market for professional security guards. in 2070, there is.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) | ||||
See.. the thing with these guys is, that, as you say, he can barely read. So he isn;t going to be intensively technology literate. He is badly educated and his training isn't that hot. He sure isn't very well equipped (A cheap old gun known mostly for its reliability (a good feature I must admit)). Okay maybe he is fed well, but all the other good stuff (training, equipment) just isn't there in the examples you gave. The other team are the shadow runners who are seriously breaking out multi spectrum vision, UAVS, matrix support, electronic warfare jammers, massive investments in things like improved reflexes, and substantial investment and experience in How To Be Extremely Violent, body armour and all the other good stuff. Our Barney from Brazil here isn't going to see him coming, let alone be able to stop him. That guy seriously has an AK and a bit of training, whereas the shadow runners are the SAS by comparison. And Barney from Yemen or whatever is actually guarding a housing complex or oil refinery today - real places where shadow runners would go (do an extraction or sabotage a refinery) |
I think the analogy is still appropriate. I'll try and explain the simmilarities as I see them.
In Yemen the local tribes spend a lot of time fighting each other. These folks have hated each other for generations but the fighting is pretty low scale. Everyone over the age of 12 knows how to use an AK but they probably arn't that good with it.
Now what happens when an oil company comes in is they usually make nice with a few of the local tribes and gets some of them to voluteer to protect them. Then they bring in the outside help. I'm sure most people have heard of Blackwater but they are hardly the only modern mercenary company out there. Now in the case of the company my dad works for their contractors are almost all former SAS. These folks are very well trained in how to teach semi-literate pesants how to use gringo techno-mathingy's. They train the locals in everything from radio operation, to tactics, to how to point and shoot more effectively. By the time the consultants are done the local's are pretty damn good at what they do.
Compare this to Shadowrun, I'll use a mid level company like Wolverine as an example. The Star, KE and other big boys are a different kettle of fish, more like modern armies than security companies.
The locals in this case are probably mostly gang bangers, maby they have SIN's, maby Wolverine has to help them aquire one. They're all familiar with violence even if they arn't terribly effective at it. Wolverine shows up, offers 3 protine packs a day, enough money to make rent, a gun, and a badge. They look around at their lives robbing stuffer shacks and decide to join up.
After they join they are probably trained by one (or several) of Wolverines "core" employees. This guy is probably a vet, more than likely from one of the big merc companies out there, possibly he's even a vet from KE Firewatch, or another special forces team. They teach them how to use their comlinks, how to interface with their AR equipped glasses along with tactics, marksmanship and for a few promicing individuals how to use specialized equipment. He also re-enforces their loyalty "look at how good your life is now, but remember we can take it all away." and by reminding them that their chances of being killed in a robbery are quite low. After all Shadowrunners and real professional criminals are a rare commodity too.
By the time their training is done you have some reasonably loyal, fairly competent security guards. They'll have their sidearm, an armoured vest, their comlink keeping them in touch with the mothership, a pair of AR equipped glasses, a dose of combat drugs in case the shit hits the fan, and a regular paycheque. For 90% of them the job is just boring. Chances are the facility they are guarding will never get hit and if they keep their noses clean they'll live to collect a pension. All things considered that's not too bad a life in the 6th world.
I guess we are taking different perspectives on the performance of 'the locals' when given firearms and even some training. The Iraqi security forces are currently being trained by serious professionals, but are turning in a dismal performance due to endemic corruption and other issues despite aforesaid training.
Hell, even the quality of the military contractors has been a mixed bag - with the companies importing 'workers' from underprivileged areas of the globe being particularly bad. (some are very good, like the aforementioned blackwater, though then again, they just got given the boot for being heavy handed and shooting civilians up (I know, 'civilians'))
So I figure the reason we are nit picking back and forth is that our fundamental assumptions about the effectiveness of basic training when applied to underprivileged people in a modern war scenario is different.
I honestly think the educational background you're going to want your sec contractors to have so they can deal with Matrix, Magical, EW, Drones, Infiltration and shock assaults with only your training laid on top might be pretty high - higher than now at least.
Hell, even the quality of the military contractors has been a mixed bag - with the companies importing 'workers' from underprivileged areas of the globe being particularly bad. (some are very good, like the aforementioned blackwater, though then again, they just got given the boot for being heavy handed and shooting civilians up (I know, 'civilians'))
So I figure the reason we are nit picking back and forth is that our fundamental assumptions about the effectiveness of basic training when applied to underprivileged people in a modern war scenario is different.
I honestly think the educational background you're going to want your sec contractors to have so they can deal with Matrix, Magical, EW, Drones, Infiltration and shock assaults with only your training laid on top might be pretty high - higher than now at least.
| QUOTE |
that's the thing, man. if there's this huge market for talented, trained, hardened criminals, there's going to be an even larger market for talented, trained, hardened security professionals. Barney from Brazil is only going to be a Barney if he's some neighborhood watch chump. if he's guarding an oil refinery, he's going to have some solid training and some solid tech toys, because if he doesn't, he's going to get killed by some runner team and the refinery's going to get blowed up (or whatever). nowadays, you don't generally have to worry about freelance specops teams blowing up your refinery, so you can cut corners on your guards' training. in 2070, there are freelance specops teams all over the place, plus corporate and national specops teams. you need serious protection for your refinery, or you're going to lose your investment. today, right now, there simply isn't a strong market for professional security guards. in 2070, there is. |
Sorry I jsut noticed this.
I agree entirely - where are these people coming from though?!?! We cannot find hardened security professionals to do the jobs TODAY. The US army cannot hit recruitment targets as is, and I understand law enforcement is strapped for people too. In the future after the VITAS plague, the crashes, sinless, there are less people to do the work (unless you employ criminals to guard your stuff, a process fraught with risk) and demand has shot through the roof.
well, even after VITAS, the crashes, and all the rest, the global population is going to have exploded. somebody did the calculations somewhere, i forget where, but basically none of the events in SR's history put all that big a dent in the growth rate of the planet's human population.
aside from that... SR's just a more violent world than today (which is sick and scary if you put any research into exactly how violent the world actually is today). so the pool of people with the required skillset and motivation is much larger. moreover, military (and i assume police) personnel are paid crappily for the skills they bring to their organizations. that's partly ameliorated by the fact that they basically get free training and many other benefits, but the fact is that almost any military except combat MOSs could double or better their pay by ETSing. in SR, demand for combat MOS types is high enough that they can easily get a chunk of that too.
aside from that... SR's just a more violent world than today (which is sick and scary if you put any research into exactly how violent the world actually is today). so the pool of people with the required skillset and motivation is much larger. moreover, military (and i assume police) personnel are paid crappily for the skills they bring to their organizations. that's partly ameliorated by the fact that they basically get free training and many other benefits, but the fact is that almost any military except combat MOSs could double or better their pay by ETSing. in SR, demand for combat MOS types is high enough that they can easily get a chunk of that too.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 17 2007, 08:21 PM) |
| aside from that... SR's just a more violent world than today (which is sick and scary if you put any research into exactly how violent the world actually is today). so the pool of people with the required skillset and motivation is much larger. moreover, military (and i assume police) personnel are paid crappily for the skills they bring to their organizations. that's partly ameliorated by the fact that they basically get free training and many other benefits, but the fact is that almost any military except combat MOSs could double or better their pay by ETSing. in SR, demand for combat MOS types is high enough that they can easily get a chunk of that too. |
hehe,
Again, my opinion is that people brought up in a life of violence don't actually make very effective soldiers because they usually suffer from bad educations, bad nutrition, bad understanding of modern weaponry etc etc. The best soldiers are (and I suspect will remain) educated people from solid backgrounds - which is why the army wants to recruit them oh so badly (The US army's big drive post vietnam was not to increase enlistment numbers, but increase quality, demanding high raw intelligence and high levels of education).
To quote a great example, if I gave you a gun and told you to shoot at a target along way away you already know you have to aim high. Hell given lots of ammo you might even eventually hit it. At the battle of Rouke's drift the zulu's had hundreds/thousands of guys with guns on a hill that overlooked the compound - and very few people scored hits. I've read theories that they did not know to aim high.
The military currently wants people will a year 12 education vastly preferred over a year 10. I see the requirements on these people vastly expanding in a 2070. In 2070, they are going to have to run drones, cyberware, EW gear and lots of computers.
If you got brought up in the slums, you never learnt all the stuff that makes the foundations that you need to understand all that stuff.
As for crappy pay.. not sure I agree. Well.. in Australia anyway. The usual situation is that the military pays for a lot of training in return for your mandatory service and the junior end of the pay scale pay is good. The problems start once they have significant experience - and then you are right, retention is a huge problem.
to be clear, i'm rationalizing. i'm looking at the situation as it exists in the setting and coming up with reasons why it is the way it is.
i'm not talking about growing up in a life of violence per se. i'm talking about growing up in a middle-class household and having a choice between being an accountant and being a hardened killer-man--and getting paid the same no matter which you choose.
i'm not talking about growing up in a life of violence per se. i'm talking about growing up in a middle-class household and having a choice between being an accountant and being a hardened killer-man--and getting paid the same no matter which you choose.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 17 2007, 07:53 PM) |
| I agree entirely - where are these people coming from though?!?! We cannot find hardened security professionals to do the jobs TODAY. The US army cannot hit recruitment targets as is, and I understand law enforcement is strapped for people too. In the future after the VITAS plague, the crashes, sinless, there are less people to do the work (unless you employ criminals to guard your stuff, a process fraught with risk) and demand has shot through the roof. |
A couple thoughts on this that you may or may not agree with - just my opinions.
The US can't get people to sign up for the Army today because people believe there are better options than military service out there. A recruit fresh out of basic is making below what Americans consider the poverty level. He's got some subsidies to help him along by taking care of most of his living expenses (barracks, chow hall, etc.), but he's still got a lower standard of living than he could get working construction. And he's got a much greater chance of getting killed. In general people here don't have to worry about getting a job so that their family doesn't starve to death. There's just too much opportunity and too many other options for the Army life to seem that appealing.
On the other hand, when I was in the Army, the percentage of Puerto Rican nationals in the Army was much much higher than their population would normally generate, because there weren't as many good paying jobs on the island, and because military service could lead to citizenship. The SIN-less in the Barrens would be the same way - the entry level corp sec job is an alternative to pushing BTLs on the corner, and might get him a SIN, after a few years of good service and a promotion to sergeant might get his kids medical care, that sort of thing.
Also, so far the discussion has been on the assumption that the only two options were
- malnourished famine victim, or
- elitist rich kids who aren't willing to do grunt work.
My last thought is that the basic level security guards don't need to be that good. They don't even need to be able to shoot straight. They just need to be there, so the corp rigger can tell that there's trouble in the building when their Crash-Cart med-alert band flatlines. That's when the corp will mobilize the professional HTR team to come in and kick hoop.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| to be clear, i'm rationalizing. i'm looking at the situation as it exists in the setting and coming up with reasons why it is the way it is. i'm not talking about growing up in a life of violence per se. i'm talking about growing up in a middle-class household and having a choice between being an accountant and being a hardened killer-man--and getting paid the same no matter which you choose. |
haha, fair enough
I'm trying to nail down what I think the setting should look like. I'm thinking that I might re-couch the game a bit away from street level to deal with same issue. Sensitive installations will have 'real' military (even if they are corps, if you know what I mean) guards through and through, that might be even imported if the area is particularly high risk.
Whereas low -> Medium grade installations will have locals with guns and a lower degree of effectiveness, and maybe a core cadre or response team available. So if you are assigned to break into some steel factory and blow it up, the shadow runners will scythe through the locals. However the insurance agency might try and kill them as part of the risk management procedure.
This allows for crap people to guard most places, with the hard core facilities having equal threat levels - and making a run vs a highly secure data centre really risky, with a big payoff.
I see what you're getting at with the accountant vs hardened killer man - but I can also see that with the general collapse of societies support systems (education!!) highly skilled accountants are going to be in demand too.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Again, my opinion is that people brought up in a life of violence don't actually make very effective soldiers because they usually suffer from (blah, blah... getting to the good part...) bad understanding of modern weaponry etc etc. |
Nonsense Poopy Pants!
They have a very good understanding of modern weaponry, allow me to give an example...
"What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' <bleep>, who'll go to work on the holmes here with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass."
Now, we have pliers, and a blowtorch. These are both very modern, and in skilled hands (as seen in the example above) very effective weaponry.
The problem is most structured military organizations lack the vision and creativity that our true violent and deviant have to offer.
Frankly, I think it's wasted potential.
Deprivation is the best school for a soldier.
At least, that's what Napoleon said. (But he's French.)
At least, that's what Napoleon said. (But he's French.)
Ick... the French... 
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| I guess we are taking different perspectives on the performance of 'the locals' when given firearms and even some training. The Iraqi security forces are currently being trained by serious professionals, but are turning in a dismal performance due to endemic corruption and other issues despite aforesaid training. Hell, even the quality of the military contractors has been a mixed bag - with the companies importing 'workers' from underprivileged areas of the globe being particularly bad. (some are very good, like the aforementioned blackwater, though then again, they just got given the boot for being heavy handed and shooting civilians up (I know, 'civilians') |
Well the other thing to consider is that Iraq is a whole different kettle of fish than guarding an oil refinary from potential violence. The fact that Iraq is an active war zone automatically puts any potential conflict above and beyond the ability for a security guard of almost any caliber to deal with. Not only that though but Iraq has serious ethnic issues that need to be delt with. the problem isn't the training of the security forces it's the question as to whether or not they'll turn those guns around on the Sunni's next door or the GI's who gave them to them.
If a security guard has no real motivation to turn on the guys who feed him then he's not likely too for no reason. That's not saying that sec grunts in Shadowrun are incorruptable, indeed a lot of sec grunts probably moonlight as bouncers, abuse their positions, and can be bribed with a few hundred
.I wholeheartedly agree that the caliber of security forces would be very irregular. I'd expect that a KE security contract would not be cheep, and a KE security officer would probably be quite well paid and very well trained. Lower end sec companies... you get what you pay for. Probably some goon with a record and an Ares Preadator.
| QUOTE (Hartbaine) | ||
Nonsense Poopy Pants! They have a very good understanding of modern weaponry, allow me to give an example... "What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' <bleep>, who'll go to work on the holmes here with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass." Now, we have pliers, and a blowtorch. These are both very modern, and in skilled hands (as seen in the example above) very effective weaponry. The problem is most structured military organizations lack the vision and creativity that our true violent and deviant have to offer. Frankly, I think it's wasted potential. |
| QUOTE (imperialus) | ||||
|
Yeah, I know. I'll tell you what it all means but it'll cost you good nuyen, or two little puppy dogs. Yo Hee Hee Yar Har.
| QUOTE (imperialus) |
| Probably some goon with a record and an Ares Preadator. |
Per "The Looming Tower" that is what the Saudi Religious Police (the mutaween) mostly consist of. Convicts who memorized the Koran to get a shorter sentence. Then given guns by the government and allowed to boss around the real police.
Your assessment of security is generally correct. Low paid, low morale, little education, apathetic people, but watch out for wild cards.
These days security is generally a bridge job, you do your time while you're waiting and training for bigger and better things.
I've worked with ex-Marine snipers who've just gotten out, and very many people who go to college during the day and work grave. Intelligent people in a shitty job.
I did the same myself before I went off to the university. I worked grave because I could read all the books I want and get paid for it.
The more imporant the site the tougher the standards are.
So watch out kids, you could expect Barney and get quite literally someone from special forces who's killing time waiting for Lone Star to process his application.
These days security is generally a bridge job, you do your time while you're waiting and training for bigger and better things.
I've worked with ex-Marine snipers who've just gotten out, and very many people who go to college during the day and work grave. Intelligent people in a shitty job.
I did the same myself before I went off to the university. I worked grave because I could read all the books I want and get paid for it.
The more imporant the site the tougher the standards are.
So watch out kids, you could expect Barney and get quite literally someone from special forces who's killing time waiting for Lone Star to process his application.
| QUOTE (imperialus @ Sep 17 2007, 10:40 PM) |
| Well the other thing to consider is that Iraq is a whole different kettle of fish than guarding an oil refinary from potential violence. The fact that Iraq is an active war zone automatically puts any potential conflict above and beyond the ability for a security guard of almost any caliber to deal with. Not only that though but Iraq has serious ethnic issues that need to be delt with. the problem isn't the training of the security forces it's the question as to whether or not they'll turn those guns around on the Sunni's next door or the GI's who gave them to them. |
From my reading chunks of the shadowrun world are actually Fallueja style urban combat zones. Other bits are low security zones where the cops totally won't go. That was totally my point. Now admittedly the bit that the security guards are guarding is in the 'green zone' but the urban gangs with no money and nothing to lose are seriously right over there. Some cities the junkies with guns are like 3 blocks away.
Being a security guard in shadowrunverse is going to be pretty risky, because loads of people are poor, and for them I'm guessing shooting up the stuff shack or cheap electronics are us is a great way to get the next fix or whatever.
Hence my question about motivation and stuff, because today you're average supermarket security guards chance of getting shot even in a 'bad part of time' is pretty low, but in SRverse it has sure gone up.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 18 2007, 10:40 AM) | ||
From my reading chunks of the shadowrun world are actually Fallueja style urban combat zones. Other bits are low security zones where the cops totally won't go. That was totally my point. Now admittedly the bit that the security guards are guarding is in the 'green zone' but the urban gangs with no money and nothing to lose are seriously right over there. Some cities the junkies with guns are like 3 blocks away. Being a security guard in shadowrunverse is going to be pretty risky, because loads of people are poor, and for them I'm guessing shooting up the stuff shack or cheap electronics are us is a great way to get the next fix or whatever. Hence my question about motivation and stuff, because today you're average supermarket security guards chance of getting shot even in a 'bad part of time' is pretty low, but in SRverse it has sure gone up. |
Isn't everyone in 2070 better armed than today? Isn't that the premise of the food fight scenario in SR1?
Also if crime is a problem who's to say alarm systems aren't fatal? I remember that commercial in Robocop where that guy breaks into the car and gets fried by the jolt of electricity. No silly sound alarms. Just blam, KYAG.
| QUOTE (Draconis) |
| Isn't everyone in 2070 better armed than today? Isn't that the premise of the food fight scenario in SR1? Also if crime is a problem who's to say alarm systems aren't fatal? I remember that commercial in Robocop where that guy breaks into the car and gets fried by the jolt of electricity. No silly sound alarms. Just blam, KYAG. |
Robocop is the best movie.
But on a slightly less tongue in cheek note: Yeah, there are probably drones that have real guns on duty in a lot of places. But that doesn't make being a sec guard any less hazardous
hell, I'd argue that more guns running around probably just increases your chance of someone shooting at you. I don;t particularly see it as helpful to you;PI never played SR1
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) | ||
Robocop is the best movie. But on a slightly less tongue in cheek note: Yeah, there are probably drones that have real guns on duty in a lot of places. But that doesn't make being a sec guard any less hazardous hell, I'd argue that more guns running around probably just increases your chance of someone shooting at you. I don;t particularly see it as helpful to you;PI never played SR1 |
Thank you for your cooperation.
I wasn't thinking drones, I was thinking more along the lines of static defenses. Pop up turrents, electric fences, monowire. You get the idea.
I'd sure as hell put lethal defenses on my car if I could.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| From my reading chunks of the shadowrun world are actually Fallueja style urban combat zones. Other bits are low security zones where the cops totally won't go. That was totally my point. Now admittedly the bit that the security guards are guarding is in the 'green zone' but the urban gangs with no money and nothing to lose are seriously right over there. Some cities the junkies with guns are like 3 blocks away. |
Not every part of a city or sprawl is like an urban warfare zone - many are simpe B- or C-class neighborhoods that see their share of daily crime, but are far from the worst.
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Sep 18 2007, 06:39 AM) |
| Not every part of a city or sprawl is like an urban warfare zone - many are simpe B- or C-class neighborhoods that see their share of daily crime, but are far from the worst. |
Oh I'm across that. But say you are a junkie in a warzone. You need some money to buy some more jazz, or cram or nitro or novacoke or whatever the hell. You also have a gun.
You can either try robbing the poor people around you, who all have guns and no money, or go to a B/C class neighborhood and try your luck there. Of course if some moron from a B class walks into your war zone he is going to get mugged by the local opportunists, and if some junkie carries out a mugging and doesn't immediately liquidate the assets and get his fix things might go badly for him, but the war zones have to export crime and import stolen goods. How do they get anything otherwise?
The thing that's always seemed odd to me is the rather common assumption I've run into that in Shadowrun, bouncers are tougher than cops.
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| The thing that's always seemed odd to me is the rather common assumption I've run into that in Shadowrun, bouncers are tougher than cops. |
It's a question of coverage. It's far cheaper to hire one above-average bouncer to cover a rowdy bar than it is to hire a dozen average cops to cover a violent neighborhood.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| You can either try robbing the poor people around you, who all have guns and no money, or go to a B/C class neighborhood and try your luck there. Of course if some moron from a B class walks into your war zone he is going to get mugged by the local opportunists, and if some junkie carries out a mugging and doesn't immediately liquidate the assets and get his fix things might go badly for him, but the war zones have to export crime and import stolen goods. How do they get anything otherwise? |
Historically speaking, the answer has generally been to rob the poor people around you. Whether you're in DC, Baltimore or Caracas, it's generally been the same. I remember while we were in Caracas and there was a big riot. Where did the poor people go? Town hall? The police station? No, they burnt down their grocery store.
The real question I think needs to be asked is, a security guard where? I think everyone here was assuming a C+ zone, in which case you aren't really expecting random people to come in and bust up your stuff, police presence is reasonable, etc. So in those places, you can believe there will be guards like what has been described; poor people with a big gun who aren't afraid to shoot suspicious strangers.
In the D zone, you're going to find it's mostly a 'barrier'. It's what separates the barrens from the rest of society. No business is going to set up shop there if they can help it, so that means the people there are going to be poor, or it's going to be nothing important, like maybe a warehouse full of raw paper pulp. The warehouse may or may not have a guard around, but ultimately it's not valuable enough to be a real target except to vandals. The poor store-owner is in a different spot, and probably can't afford guards anyway, so he has bars over his windows, bulletproof glass around his counter, hidden mounted guns in his store, lots of cameras, and he pays out to the local gang for protection. That keeps 90% of the thugs at bay. Still, I'm sure his store gets knocked over regularly, and the life span of that poor slob isn't too long. This is where the people from the Z zones, punks with guns, go to. They have to walk THROUGH it to get to the good areas (A-C zones), and generally crooks are lazy, so he'll just rob this place and be done with it, where he knows there's no cop presence and no security guards.
Then we get to the Z zones. That is a war zone, plain and simple. People know the Kwik-E-Marts don't carry and don't accept cash, everything is done electronically, and they don't get refunds. After a few cashiers are offed, they'll learn there's no money to be had. There's food though, which means the job is still dangerous, and a clerk who lets his store get robbed loses his job, so he'll likely fight to the death. I imagine most stores are built up not by individuals, but by families or gangs, so they can support each other, provide constant attention and defense. Again, no security guards here! Except those who sleep here and work elsewhere. It's all just individuals or gangs with guns, 'insurance' provided by underworld figures. You knock off a store with a Yak symbol on it and the Yaks track you down and kill you, just to make a point. Or they kill someone similar to you. It's rule by the strongest, and everyone is a soldier.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| to be clear, i'm rationalizing. i'm looking at the situation as it exists in the setting and coming up with reasons why it is the way it is. |
This is a good point. We're not trying to deduce a logical future.
We know the future that we want (in the game). We just have to make it believable.
I would imagine that a very common career path is:
Get a crappy education using free, corporate-sponsored VR education. It's free for anyone who wants it, but its got commercials that really push the legal boundaries of psychotropic conditioning. All-around, the primary purpose is to get you to buy their products, not get smarter, so the quality of the education is pretty poor, and that's if you even bother to do it.
You join the military. This is probably one of the best ways for a SINless to become a legitimate member of society. A SIN is probably one of the military's prime incentives.
You get some free cyberware; another incentive from the military. If you're actually smart/skilled and/or sign on for a longer time you get better stuff, but everyone gets the basics: cybereyes, smartlink, wires 1, etc.
You get out after 4 years and get a high-demand security job. Sure, you might get killed by shadowrunners, but due to the very high demand for pre-wired combat trained security personnel, it's actually a middle class job. And hey, the getting shot by 'runners thing isn't going to happen to you right? That stuff happens to other people.
For a lot of people in the 6th world, this is the very best career path they can realistically hope to achieve, and it's available to anyone.
That's how I rationalize it in my 6th world. As always, YMMV.
Way I play it:
Your average secguard, Barney-type, is probably working the job because the job market is tight elsewhere or nobody else is hiring. (I have trouble envisioning there not being sometimes very tight labor markets, especially in the 2060s and 2070s.)
Security is a -very- high turnover job - either people don't like the hours, or the work, or they find a better job, or whatever. So there's always openings. These guys work low-pay, low-value jobs. Generally in low-threat areas. They pay for the uniform, they may or may not be armed (and if they are, it's with a cheap pistol they had to pay for, and they don't really know how to use it). The thing is, they don't need to be effective, they're not supposed to get into firefights. They're there for presence, helping-lost-kids, etc. Pay rates are not going to be minimum-wage, but they're not going to be much, either.
As you go onward, you run into former one-term soldiers, people who just got out of college and want to make policing their career (and are waiting for the app with whoever to process), so forth. Cyberware's presence varies with the person. There's generally at least a basic level of competence with pistols, and a passing familiarity with the shotgun kept locked up for absolute emergencies - but again, while the pay is higher, the value of the people or things or place protected is higher, and the threat is somewhat higher, the idea here is presence. Really, just having someone doing guardlike stuff deters a lot of people. These guards might be expected to get into combat, but only until they can retreat to a safe location - it's really to drive low-level hostiles off, not really hold out against anything.
After this point, you get into "proper" security. The personnel are trained, if inexperienced. They're almost always armed, and while they might not carry anything heavier than a pistol, they have access to and know how to use shotguns and automatics, and they may well have cyber. Armored car personnel and the like fall here, as do moderately-secure industrial sites and so forth. These folks are expected to call for reinforcements and hold out until the arrival of said reinforcements.
Once you reach infrastructure (power generation or transmission, water facilities, average data centers), low-level research labs, etc.: The security here is fully-trained. Armed without exception, sometimes with automatic weapons. Frequently, drones provide coverage as well. Cyber is common but not universal. Magical security depends on the site. In areas where personnel generally aren't supposed to be, you may see mounted weaponry such as sentry-guns.
Upwards from here, imagination takes over. Yes, corps in SR have militaries. Yes, those military units can be used for security. But they often aren't - governments, no matter how strong, get really nervous when corporations do that, even if they can't stop them.
Your average secguard, Barney-type, is probably working the job because the job market is tight elsewhere or nobody else is hiring. (I have trouble envisioning there not being sometimes very tight labor markets, especially in the 2060s and 2070s.)
Security is a -very- high turnover job - either people don't like the hours, or the work, or they find a better job, or whatever. So there's always openings. These guys work low-pay, low-value jobs. Generally in low-threat areas. They pay for the uniform, they may or may not be armed (and if they are, it's with a cheap pistol they had to pay for, and they don't really know how to use it). The thing is, they don't need to be effective, they're not supposed to get into firefights. They're there for presence, helping-lost-kids, etc. Pay rates are not going to be minimum-wage, but they're not going to be much, either.
As you go onward, you run into former one-term soldiers, people who just got out of college and want to make policing their career (and are waiting for the app with whoever to process), so forth. Cyberware's presence varies with the person. There's generally at least a basic level of competence with pistols, and a passing familiarity with the shotgun kept locked up for absolute emergencies - but again, while the pay is higher, the value of the people or things or place protected is higher, and the threat is somewhat higher, the idea here is presence. Really, just having someone doing guardlike stuff deters a lot of people. These guards might be expected to get into combat, but only until they can retreat to a safe location - it's really to drive low-level hostiles off, not really hold out against anything.
After this point, you get into "proper" security. The personnel are trained, if inexperienced. They're almost always armed, and while they might not carry anything heavier than a pistol, they have access to and know how to use shotguns and automatics, and they may well have cyber. Armored car personnel and the like fall here, as do moderately-secure industrial sites and so forth. These folks are expected to call for reinforcements and hold out until the arrival of said reinforcements.
Once you reach infrastructure (power generation or transmission, water facilities, average data centers), low-level research labs, etc.: The security here is fully-trained. Armed without exception, sometimes with automatic weapons. Frequently, drones provide coverage as well. Cyber is common but not universal. Magical security depends on the site. In areas where personnel generally aren't supposed to be, you may see mounted weaponry such as sentry-guns.
Upwards from here, imagination takes over. Yes, corps in SR have militaries. Yes, those military units can be used for security. But they often aren't - governments, no matter how strong, get really nervous when corporations do that, even if they can't stop them.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| From my reading chunks of the shadowrun world are actually Fallueja style urban combat zones. Other bits are low security zones where the cops totally won't go. That was totally my point. Now admittedly the bit that the security guards are guarding is in the 'green zone' but the urban gangs with no money and nothing to lose are seriously right over there. Some cities the junkies with guns are like 3 blocks away. Being a security guard in shadowrunverse is going to be pretty risky, because loads of people are poor, and for them I'm guessing shooting up the stuff shack or cheap electronics are us is a great way to get the next fix or whatever. Hence my question about motivation and stuff, because today you're average supermarket security guards chance of getting shot even in a 'bad part of time' is pretty low, but in SRverse it has sure gone up. |
I'd still say it more closely resembles San Paulo Brazil at the worst. There are areas of San Paulo that the cops simply will not enter. Gangs have previously gone to war with the police, besiged police stations and won. There are still cops walking the beat though. In Fallueja the badguys belive that it is their religious duty to drive a Buick full of fertalizer into markets or checkpoints or what have you. Gangbangers just don't have that kind of motivation.
Nazumi has a good point too, 90% of the time the victims of crime in the barrens will be other inhabitants of the barrens. That's just how crime works. Look at NYC. You have housing projects pushed right up against trendy studio apartments where rent is 7 or 8K a month. If too many criminals started hitting the apartments do you really think people would be living there?
I would be tremendously surprised if a security guard anywhere in SR didn't carry a weapon excepting when it is against the policy of that particular facility (for instance, an embassy may restrict weapons).
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| I would be tremendously surprised if a security guard anywhere in SR didn't carry a weapon excepting when it is against the policy of that particular facility (for instance, an embassy may restrict weapons). |
Other than ultra-high security places, I'd assume that most guards carry non-lethal weapons. Or at least start with non-lethal ones. That may just mean gel rounds or stick-n-shocks in the mag of the pistol, with normal ammo in the back-up mag. But this lessens the chance of guards over-reacting and killing the scientist by mistake, or having a round go through the wall and take out the server room.
i actually prefer arming all security guards with lethal measures. if individual guards happen to be softies, they can bring their own less-lethal measures from home, but i view SR as a nasty enough place that everybody in a security position has a gun.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| It's a question of coverage. It's far cheaper to hire one above-average bouncer to cover a rowdy bar than it is to hire a dozen average cops to cover a violent neighborhood. |
It still seems like in terms of professionalism, training and gear the dozen cops are going to have a lead on the bouncer working at Bob's Country Bunker. In "real life", odds are most people are going to have a rougher time screwing with cops than they are with a bouncer or doorman. In the game, cops are usually schmoe-like, whereas the local bouncer might have Move-By-Wire.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 18 2007, 12:35 PM) |
| i actually prefer arming all security guards with lethal measures. if individual guards happen to be softies, they can bring their own less-lethal measures from home, but i view SR as a nasty enough place that everybody in a security position has a gun. |
I doubt they'd be overly concerned about people caught in the crossfire, techies should learn to duck. If however they are concerned about property damage then Flechette ammo might be a common sight on security guards.
edit. Fixed grammer.
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| It still seems like in terms of professionalism, training and gear the dozen cops are going to have a lead on the bouncer working at Bob's Country Bunker. In "real life", odds are most people are going to have a rougher time screwing with cops than they are with a bouncer or doorman. In the game, cops are usually schmoe-like, whereas the local bouncer might have Move-By-Wire. |
in terms of professionalism, training, and gear, the cops do have the advantage. what they don't have is one-on-one lethality, because that's not really their purpose. if it comes down to bouncer vs cops, the cops are going to win--because they're going to do the smart thing and plink at the bouncer from behind cover until backup arrives.
Roadhouse-style coolers aside, your average cop vs your average bouncer, I still gotta give it to the cops. At the upper end I'd say it evens out, but at the lower end it seems like the cops have armor, gear and training and the bouncer is a guy with a flashlight who wrestled in high school. (At the very bottom of the barrel, a cop will at least have academy training, whereas a bouncer might require a $30-a-year serving permit.)
As far as security guards go, I've always found that the verisimilitude of the game world dovetailed nicely with game balance. A corporation isn't going to spend more money guarding something-- nor will a rival corp spend more money attempting to acquire it-- than its worth.
Spelling Edit.
As far as security guards go, I've always found that the verisimilitude of the game world dovetailed nicely with game balance. A corporation isn't going to spend more money guarding something-- nor will a rival corp spend more money attempting to acquire it-- than its worth.
Spelling Edit.
I have to admit, I have to chuckle reading this, since the only bouncer I know spent a few years overseas with the military and is big enough that if he were to wear all white and stand in the middle of a hallway, people would think he's a wall. One of him versus one Lone Star guy? He'd win. Especially in Shadowrun where bouncers do have handguns, and probably have a scattergun close by to boot.
In regards to guards and non-lethal weaponry, it's a question about whether they're more worried about confidentiality or availability of their resources. If confidentiality is most important, they pack heat and no non-lethal weapons, so they make sure the bad guy is dead, even if it means killing a few employees by accident. If availability is more important, they'd almost certainly have non-lethal stuff, since the giant, specially grown brain in a jar is allergic to lead.
In regards to guards and non-lethal weaponry, it's a question about whether they're more worried about confidentiality or availability of their resources. If confidentiality is most important, they pack heat and no non-lethal weapons, so they make sure the bad guy is dead, even if it means killing a few employees by accident. If availability is more important, they'd almost certainly have non-lethal stuff, since the giant, specially grown brain in a jar is allergic to lead.
With all due respect to the bouncer who's huge and skilled - sure, his SR equivalent can take on any average Lonestar grunt and win, but as others have said, he'll never have a one-on-one fight, because the Lonestar grunt will call for backup.
There's a separate thread on how GMs handle Lonestar: as mooks for the PCs to toss around, as a serious threat, or other. Some similar points being made.
For gaming purposes, though, the superbouncer exists partly as dramatic color, to show an extreme of crude cybering that few PCs will choose (arm pistons etc.), and partly to keep PCs from gettting too reckless, in the same way that unrealistically buff guards are necessary in some MMORGPs to keep the munchkins from looting the towns. My PC street-sam troll is polite to bouncers... sure, he'd win the fight, but then he'd become unwelcome in that bar.
Many posts seem consistent with the scenario that when Our Heroes the PC shadowrunners get to most sites, they first get to have a power-fantasy-fix easy time with the Barney-level guards, and then the High Threat Response ninja-level team gets dispatched for the real fight. Indeed, the opening story in the SR4 book plays out just that way. Or if it's a prime target, then the guards prowling the corridors are mid-level, and then backed up by equal-to-the-PCs specialists, with cyber, drones, etc.
I'm seeing disagreement about whether an under-nourished, illiterate person can be trained into an effective fighter. Arguably there is a specific skillset for this training, and it doesn't bother with written manuals, since there are hands-on ways to train such people now, and instructional videos/trids etc. will only get better. On another hand, there's an argument that even if this style of training is fine for turning dropouts into skilled gunmen who can hold their own against other gunmen... it might or might not get you soldiers with the flexibility to respond appropriately to non-standard tactics, eg how to notice and respond to magical attacks, to microdrones, to ECM misdirection, to spoofed orders over the commlink (in their commander's voice), and other "dirty tricks" that shadowrunners may have up their sleeves. Guards with Agility 4, Firearms 4, and smartlinked MP5s can still be ineffective if their smartlinks got hacked before the fight starts.
With wariness about controversial topics on a gaming forum: the situation in Iraq has several complications that make it a limited analogy. There are religious motivations that rarely apply in SR (except for UB, or a Sprawl gang that's devoted to their Rat Totem shaman, etc.), and there are other complications of motivation and loyalty. Some Iraqis see the US as an occupying foreign army, and the current goverment as a puppet of US corporations (eg Halliburton). Not that I'm taking anyone's side here. I'm just saying it's a questionably useful comparison to SR situations.
There's a separate thread on how GMs handle Lonestar: as mooks for the PCs to toss around, as a serious threat, or other. Some similar points being made.
For gaming purposes, though, the superbouncer exists partly as dramatic color, to show an extreme of crude cybering that few PCs will choose (arm pistons etc.), and partly to keep PCs from gettting too reckless, in the same way that unrealistically buff guards are necessary in some MMORGPs to keep the munchkins from looting the towns. My PC street-sam troll is polite to bouncers... sure, he'd win the fight, but then he'd become unwelcome in that bar.
Many posts seem consistent with the scenario that when Our Heroes the PC shadowrunners get to most sites, they first get to have a power-fantasy-fix easy time with the Barney-level guards, and then the High Threat Response ninja-level team gets dispatched for the real fight. Indeed, the opening story in the SR4 book plays out just that way. Or if it's a prime target, then the guards prowling the corridors are mid-level, and then backed up by equal-to-the-PCs specialists, with cyber, drones, etc.
I'm seeing disagreement about whether an under-nourished, illiterate person can be trained into an effective fighter. Arguably there is a specific skillset for this training, and it doesn't bother with written manuals, since there are hands-on ways to train such people now, and instructional videos/trids etc. will only get better. On another hand, there's an argument that even if this style of training is fine for turning dropouts into skilled gunmen who can hold their own against other gunmen... it might or might not get you soldiers with the flexibility to respond appropriately to non-standard tactics, eg how to notice and respond to magical attacks, to microdrones, to ECM misdirection, to spoofed orders over the commlink (in their commander's voice), and other "dirty tricks" that shadowrunners may have up their sleeves. Guards with Agility 4, Firearms 4, and smartlinked MP5s can still be ineffective if their smartlinks got hacked before the fight starts.
With wariness about controversial topics on a gaming forum: the situation in Iraq has several complications that make it a limited analogy. There are religious motivations that rarely apply in SR (except for UB, or a Sprawl gang that's devoted to their Rat Totem shaman, etc.), and there are other complications of motivation and loyalty. Some Iraqis see the US as an occupying foreign army, and the current goverment as a puppet of US corporations (eg Halliburton). Not that I'm taking anyone's side here. I'm just saying it's a questionably useful comparison to SR situations.
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