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Maximum Force, Questioin about spells

Maximum View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 07:36 PM Post #1
Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 22-August 06 From: Ares Metroplex, MI Member No.: 9,193	Is there a maximum Force for spirits and spells? Page 164 of the main book seems to say that the maximum Force for spells, spirits, and foci is 6. Am I correct in thinking that the max Force is 6?

Lagomorph View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 07:41 PM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832	The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

Buster

Sep 18 2007, 07:43 PM

Post #3

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Here's the quote from the book:

QUOTE (p173)

The maximum Force a spell can be cast at equals the spellcaster’s
Magic rating x 2. Casting a spell with a Force that exceeds the
magician’s Magic rating is considered dangerous overcasting
(see p. 172), however, causing Physical Drain rather than Stun.

kzt View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 07:43 PM Post #4
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	Nope, it's your magic stat. For Mystic adepts, it's your magic not used for adept powers. And you can overcast to twice that, but you take body as drain instead of stun.

Maximum View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 07:49 PM Post #5
Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 22-August 06 From: Ares Metroplex, MI Member No.: 9,193	The thing that confused me is where page 164 says "Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes(1 to 6)." I would imagine that it would have been mentioned again where they talk about overcasting.

darthmord

Sep 18 2007, 08:00 PM

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QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 18 2007, 03:43 PM)

Nope, it's your magic stat. For Mystic adepts, it's your magic not used for adept powers.

And you can overcast to twice that, but you take body as drain instead of stun.

The way I understood the text about how mystic adepts work was like so...

You have your Magic attribute. We'll call that BASE_MAGIC.

You have your Magic devoted toward casting. We'll call that CAST_MAGIC.

You have your Magic devoted toward adept powers. We'll call that ADEPT_MAGIC.

This means that BM = CM + AM.

So far, so good.

====================

Now when you look at your maximum force castable, the text appears to state that it's based on your BM, not the portion devoted toward casting. But the actual casting is using your CM.

So in a 2 / 4 split of 6 Magic for Casting / Adept respectively, you'd be able to overcast up to Force 12 (due to Magic of 6) but you only got to roll 2 dice for the Magic attribute portion of the roll due to that amount being devoted toward casting magic.

Likewise, for the adept side, you'd have 4 points for adept powers and would be limited to a max level of 6 for the adept power(s) in question.

The wording in my Street Magic book (hard copy) does imply the above as well as what you stated. Would be nice if it was a bit more... clear. :S

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 08:03 PM Post #7
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	darthmord: That's a good description. I just wish I were more sure you were right.

Naysayer View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 08:08 PM Post #8
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 9-December 06 From: the Maaatlock-Expressway! Member No.: 10,326	Well, I think he's right, if that is in any way reassuring.

Moon-Hawk

Sep 18 2007, 08:13 PM

Post #9

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QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), overcasting, and maximum spell Force, for example.

For power points and Magic when used by adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes Attribute Boost Tests and the like.

For all other purposes -- i.e., non-Magic-linked skills -- the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, and so on.

So in the example above, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.

I guess that clears that up. The FAQ is here for anyone who doesn't know.

Naysayer View Member Profile	Sep 18 2007, 09:28 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 9-December 06 From: the Maaatlock-Expressway! Member No.: 10,326	Ok, I no longer think he's right. From reading the rulebook, though, he could have been. Thanks for clearing that up. Somehow, I always tend to forget about the FAQ. See, back'n ious jussa young fella, we had none a them facks n erratas an' all. Yer git yer book an' yer stick with it, and if there was some rule that don't work, well, you hadda make it work yerself, an' not ask them dervellaper on some internet or something! Of course, back then, dervellapers were still real people who lived in big towers made of real money, not some kid living onna internet!

john_doe

Sep 19 2007, 03:27 AM

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QUOTE (Lagomorph)

The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

So, if a full Mage begins with a 5 Magic attribute, they could drop Force 10 stunballs like they are nothing?

Nychuus

Sep 19 2007, 03:31 AM

Post #12

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QUOTE (john_doe)

QUOTE (Lagomorph)

The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

So, if a full Mage begins with a 5 Magic attribute, they could drop Force 10 stunballs like they are nothing?

Considering you don't mind your head exploding from the overcast :grinbig:

john_doe

Sep 19 2007, 03:34 AM

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QUOTE (Nychuus @ Sep 18 2007, 10:31 PM)

QUOTE (john_doe @ Sep 18 2007, 10:27 PM)

QUOTE (Lagomorph)

The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

So, if a full Mage begins with a 5 Magic attribute, they could drop Force 10 stunballs like they are nothing?

Considering you don't mind your head exploding from the overcast :grinbig:

Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Nychuus

Sep 19 2007, 03:45 AM

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QUOTE (john_doe)

Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

Serial_Peacemake... Serial_Peacemaker View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 03:56 AM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483	Really? I thought you could still soak that down to nothing, just like you could hypothetically soak a bullet down to nothing. However soaking ten dice with twelve dice sounds a little iffy.

Nychuus

Sep 19 2007, 04:45 AM

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QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker)

Really? I thought you could still soak that down to nothing, just like you could hypothetically soak a bullet down to nothing.

I'm foggy on the clear-cut rules. But I do remember that you can't spell-sling all day, you're going to pass out some time or later for abusing the manasphere.

Cain

Sep 19 2007, 04:47 AM

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QUOTE

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Or used a focus. A dwarf of Elf could easily have 16 dice.

Granted, soaking 10 damage with 16 dice is still iffy, and probably won't happen on a regular basis, but 16 dice is easily doable for a starting character.

QUOTE

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

No offense, but got a page number on that? I can't find that rule anywhere.

DTFarstar View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 04:57 AM Post #18
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421	I believe he is referencing BBB p. 195, however if I am reading it right it is referencing original Drain Value, not setting a minimum you can resist down to. It's just saying that you can't case Force 3 StunBolts for 0 Drain, even a Force 1 Knockout has 1 DV. Which is easy to resist to nothing, but still you have to roll for it. Chris

Nychuus

Sep 19 2007, 05:45 AM

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QUOTE (Cain)

QUOTE

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

No offense, but got a page number on that? I can't find that rule anywhere.

Straight from the PDF.

QUOTE (SR4 p.195)

Drain Value
This describes the Damage Value the Drain causes. Drain is based on the spell’s Force; the more powerful the spell, the more exhausting it is to cast. Drain is variable, based on the spell’s Force ÷ 2, rounded down, and modifi ed by Drain modifi ers appropriate to each spell. Drain is Stun damage, unless the spell is overcast (cast at a Force higher than the magician’s Magic), in which case it is Physical damage. Note that no Drain Value can ever be less than 1.

Poop...

Damnable memory. I retract my previous statement.

You can't have a 0 DV, but you can soak the drain into nothingness.
Thanks DTF & Cain

hyzmarca

Sep 19 2007, 05:50 AM

Post #20

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QUOTE (Nychuus @ Sep 18 2007, 10:45 PM)

QUOTE (john_doe @ Sep 18 2007, 10:34 PM)

Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

Willpower and Logic are both augmentable with 'ware. With an Exceptional Attribute, Cerebral Booster 3, and Pain Editor, 15 dice are possible with room for 2 more. Take Bear as a mentor and thats +2 dice for physical drain. Make your bioware alpha grade and you can even fit in a Trauma Dampener for a single auto-soak against stun drain and a single box dropped down to stun for physical drain.

Of course, you shouldn't forget the brilliance of just using Increase [Attribute] to raise drain attributes.

Of course, my favorite trick is to initiate once and grab Sacrificing, self-sacrifice the drain on your combat spell down to nothing, and then cast Heal on while cutting yourself open to reduce the drain on the heal spell so that you can stage it down to nothing. And then repeat on your new wound. And repeat again until you are fully healed.

Which is almost as good as getting Sacrificing, Invoking, while being a member of a tradition that can summon Plant and GuardianSpirits. Invoke one of each at low force with enough successes to get the optional powers, order the Guardian Spirit to Endow the Plant Spirit with Endowment and then have the Plant Spirit use Endowment to Endow you with Regeneration. Then, while you have regeneration, just use Sacrificing on yourself instead of taking drain.

Suppliment with a Life Pact or a Power Pact: Regeneration as needed. And use endowed or Power Pacted Essence Drain to increase your magic attribute by 5 or 6 while you're at it.

Edit:Guardian, not guidance

ludomastro View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 06:46 AM Post #21
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297	@ hyzmarca Ummm, no, just no man.

darthmord View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 01:36 PM Post #22
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548	For real cheese, do those same steps but use them to buff up your friendly neighborhood cyberzombie... :cyber:

toturi

Sep 19 2007, 01:42 PM

Post #23

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QUOTE (Alex)

@ hyzmarca

Ummm, no, just no man.

Why not?

Look perfectly RAW to me.

Eleazar

Sep 19 2007, 01:55 PM

Post #24

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QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 18 2007, 11:47 PM)

QUOTE

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Or used a focus. A dwarf of Elf could easily have 16 dice.

Granted, soaking 10 damage with 16 dice is still iffy, and probably won't happen on a regular basis, but 16 dice is easily doable for a starting character.

QUOTE

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

No offense, but got a page number on that? I can't find that rule anywhere.

An elf with 8 charisma and 6 willpower can have 14 dice in a drain resistance. Add in another 2 dice from a fetish and you have 16 dice. He can get even more if he wants to from a power focus or mentor spirit. The dice can be used in the spellcasting test or withheld for the drain resistance. So with a power focus 2 and a mentor spirit assisting with 2 dice, you could have 20 dice for drain resistance at chargen. This comes at a rather large cost of maxing out two attributes and purchasing a power focus 2. 20 drain resistance dice can allow you to cast some rather nasty spells though.

Bull View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 02:09 PM Post #25
Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50	Stun Spells have always been the bane of my existance as a GM, because of a couple cheese monkeys who abused them in the past. It was worse when you could buys spells at a set force as a Mystic Adept. I had one cheese monkey that used to abuse Force 6 Stunbolts with a casting magic Rating of 1. Physical Drain is no biggie when you only need TN's of 2, and only need like 6 or even 8 of them on 12 dice or more. Nowadays, that doesn;t work. But Stun Spells are still fraggin' cheap as dirt, espeially since, logically speaking, most enemies are not going to have very high will powers. Stun Spells are a million times better than most physical combat spells. :/ The only work around to to cheese the player back, unfortunately. Start tossing in extra mages with couterspelling dice, give ythe NPCs an extra point or two of WIllpower,or make them fight drones. Stun-reliant mages hate drones :) Bull

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