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Maximum
Is there a maximum Force for spirits and spells? Page 164 of the main book seems to say that the maximum Force for spells, spirits, and foci is 6.

Am I correct in thinking that the max Force is 6?
Lagomorph
The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.
Buster
Here's the quote from the book:
QUOTE (p173)
The maximum Force a spell can be cast at equals the spellcaster’s
Magic rating x 2. Casting a spell with a Force that exceeds the
magician’s Magic rating is considered dangerous overcasting
(see p. 172), however, causing Physical Drain rather than Stun.
kzt
Nope, it's your magic stat. For Mystic adepts, it's your magic not used for adept powers.

And you can overcast to twice that, but you take body as drain instead of stun.
Maximum
The thing that confused me is where page 164 says "Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes(1 to 6)." I would imagine that it would have been mentioned again where they talk about overcasting.
darthmord
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 18 2007, 03:43 PM)
Nope, it's your magic stat.  For Mystic adepts, it's your magic not used for adept powers.

And you can overcast to twice that, but you take body as drain instead of stun.

The way I understood the text about how mystic adepts work was like so...

You have your Magic attribute. We'll call that BASE_MAGIC.

You have your Magic devoted toward casting. We'll call that CAST_MAGIC.

You have your Magic devoted toward adept powers. We'll call that ADEPT_MAGIC.

This means that BM = CM + AM.

So far, so good.

====================

Now when you look at your maximum force castable, the text appears to state that it's based on your BM, not the portion devoted toward casting. But the actual casting is using your CM.

So in a 2 / 4 split of 6 Magic for Casting / Adept respectively, you'd be able to overcast up to Force 12 (due to Magic of 6) but you only got to roll 2 dice for the Magic attribute portion of the roll due to that amount being devoted toward casting magic.

Likewise, for the adept side, you'd have 4 points for adept powers and would be limited to a max level of 6 for the adept power(s) in question.

The wording in my Street Magic book (hard copy) does imply the above as well as what you stated. Would be nice if it was a bit more... clear. sarcastic.gif
Moon-Hawk
darthmord: That's a good description. I just wish I were more sure you were right.
Naysayer
Well, I think he's right, if that is in any way reassuring.

Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), overcasting, and maximum spell Force, for example.

For power points and Magic when used by adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes Attribute Boost Tests and the like.

For all other purposes -- i.e., non-Magic-linked skills -- the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, and so on.

So in the example above, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.

I guess that clears that up. The FAQ is here for anyone who doesn't know.
Naysayer
Ok, I no longer think he's right.

From reading the rulebook, though, he could have been.
Thanks for clearing that up. Somehow, I always tend to forget about the FAQ.

See, back'n ious jussa young fella, we had none a them facks n erratas an' all. Yer git yer book an' yer stick with it, and if there was some rule that don't work, well, you hadda make it work yerself, an' not ask them dervellaper on some internet or something!
Of course, back then, dervellapers were still real people who lived in big towers made of real money, not some kid living onna internet!
john_doe
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

So, if a full Mage begins with a 5 Magic attribute, they could drop Force 10 stunballs like they are nothing?
Nychuus
QUOTE (john_doe)
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

So, if a full Mage begins with a 5 Magic attribute, they could drop Force 10 stunballs like they are nothing?

Considering you don't mind your head exploding from the overcast grinbig.gif
john_doe
QUOTE (Nychuus @ Sep 18 2007, 10:31 PM)
QUOTE (john_doe @ Sep 18 2007, 10:27 PM)
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
The maximum force is equal to your magic rating, the maximum over cast force is equal to 2x your magic rating. There is no hard cap on force, it is only limited by your magic rating.

So, if a full Mage begins with a 5 Magic attribute, they could drop Force 10 stunballs like they are nothing?

Considering you don't mind your head exploding from the overcast grinbig.gif

Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...
Nychuus
QUOTE (john_doe)
Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.
Serial_Peacemaker
Really? I thought you could still soak that down to nothing, just like you could hypothetically soak a bullet down to nothing. However soaking ten dice with twelve dice sounds a little iffy.
Nychuus
QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker)
Really? I thought you could still soak that down to nothing, just like you could hypothetically soak a bullet down to nothing.

I'm foggy on the clear-cut rules. But I do remember that you can't spell-sling all day, you're going to pass out some time or later for abusing the manasphere.
Cain
QUOTE

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Or used a focus. A dwarf of Elf could easily have 16 dice.

Granted, soaking 10 damage with 16 dice is still iffy, and probably won't happen on a regular basis, but 16 dice is easily doable for a starting character.

QUOTE
Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

No offense, but got a page number on that? I can't find that rule anywhere.
DTFarstar
I believe he is referencing BBB p. 195, however if I am reading it right it is referencing original Drain Value, not setting a minimum you can resist down to. It's just saying that you can't case Force 3 StunBolts for 0 Drain, even a Force 1 Knockout has 1 DV. Which is easy to resist to nothing, but still you have to roll for it.




Chris

Nychuus
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

No offense, but got a page number on that? I can't find that rule anywhere.

Straight from the PDF.

QUOTE (SR4 p.195)
Drain Value
This describes the Damage Value the Drain causes. Drain is based on the spell’s Force; the more powerful the spell, the more exhausting it is to cast. Drain is variable, based on the spell’s Force ÷ 2, rounded down, and modifi ed by Drain modifi ers appropriate to each spell. Drain is Stun damage, unless the spell is overcast (cast at a Force higher than the magician’s Magic), in which case it is Physical damage. Note that no Drain Value can ever be less than 1.

Poop...

Damnable memory. I retract my previous statement.

You can't have a 0 DV, but you can soak the drain into nothingness.
Thanks DTF & Cain
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Nychuus @ Sep 18 2007, 10:45 PM)
QUOTE (john_doe @ Sep 18 2007, 10:34 PM)
Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

Willpower and Logic are both augmentable with 'ware. With an Exceptional Attribute, Cerebral Booster 3, and Pain Editor, 15 dice are possible with room for 2 more. Take Bear as a mentor and thats +2 dice for physical drain. Make your bioware alpha grade and you can even fit in a Trauma Dampener for a single auto-soak against stun drain and a single box dropped down to stun for physical drain.

Of course, you shouldn't forget the brilliance of just using Increase [Attribute] to raise drain attributes.

Of course, my favorite trick is to initiate once and grab Sacrificing, self-sacrifice the drain on your combat spell down to nothing, and then cast Heal on while cutting yourself open to reduce the drain on the heal spell so that you can stage it down to nothing. And then repeat on your new wound. And repeat again until you are fully healed.

Which is almost as good as getting Sacrificing, Invoking, while being a member of a tradition that can summon Plant and GuardianSpirits. Invoke one of each at low force with enough successes to get the optional powers, order the Guardian Spirit to Endow the Plant Spirit with Endowment and then have the Plant Spirit use Endowment to Endow you with Regeneration. Then, while you have regeneration, just use Sacrificing on yourself instead of taking drain.

Suppliment with a Life Pact or a Power Pact: Regeneration as needed. And use endowed or Power Pacted Essence Drain to increase your magic attribute by 5 or 6 while you're at it.

Edit:Guardian, not guidance
ludomastro
@ hyzmarca

Ummm, no, just no man.
darthmord
For real cheese, do those same steps but use them to buff up your friendly neighborhood cyberzombie... cyber.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Alex)
@ hyzmarca

Ummm, no, just no man.

Why not?

Look perfectly RAW to me.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 18 2007, 11:47 PM)
QUOTE

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Or used a focus. A dwarf of Elf could easily have 16 dice.

Granted, soaking 10 damage with 16 dice is still iffy, and probably won't happen on a regular basis, but 16 dice is easily doable for a starting character.

QUOTE
Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

No offense, but got a page number on that? I can't find that rule anywhere.

An elf with 8 charisma and 6 willpower can have 14 dice in a drain resistance. Add in another 2 dice from a fetish and you have 16 dice. He can get even more if he wants to from a power focus or mentor spirit. The dice can be used in the spellcasting test or withheld for the drain resistance. So with a power focus 2 and a mentor spirit assisting with 2 dice, you could have 20 dice for drain resistance at chargen. This comes at a rather large cost of maxing out two attributes and purchasing a power focus 2. 20 drain resistance dice can allow you to cast some rather nasty spells though.
Bull
Stun Spells have always been the bane of my existance as a GM, because of a couple cheese monkeys who abused them in the past.

It was worse when you could buys spells at a set force as a Mystic Adept. I had one cheese monkey that used to abuse Force 6 Stunbolts with a casting magic Rating of 1. Physical Drain is no biggie when you only need TN's of 2, and only need like 6 or even 8 of them on 12 dice or more.

Nowadays, that doesn;t work. But Stun Spells are still fraggin' cheap as dirt, espeially since, logically speaking, most enemies are not going to have very high will powers. Stun Spells are a million times better than most physical combat spells. :/

The only work around to to cheese the player back, unfortunately. Start tossing in extra mages with couterspelling dice, give ythe NPCs an extra point or two of WIllpower,or make them fight drones.

Stun-reliant mages hate drones smile.gif

Bull
Naysayer
Also, if they're not already completely lost to the Cheese Side, it sometimes works to "reward" them for using physical/indirect combat spells.
Emphasize on the secondary effects, and also the psychological effects of having a fireball detonate right smack in the middle of a horde of mooks.
Cook off some ammo, let them roll around on the floor, trying to put out the flames, amp up on the FX.
Don't overdo it, of course, a meager Force 1 Fireball shouldn't blow up CRTs on a regular basis, but for a lot of players, making shit go boom can be more satisfying than rolling a ton of dice just to make some random npc drop down.

If they ARE real, rotten-to-the-core cheesemonkeys, let them have their fun for a while, if it gets too wild, amp up the opposition, not necessarily with tons of mojo, just more nasty tricks. suppressive fire, smoke grenades, cover, and random meteor strikes are all pefectly good ways to show a player that he is offsetting the fun-had-per-group-member ratio.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Cain)
Granted, soaking 10 damage with 16 dice is still iffy, and probably won't happen on a regular basis, but 16 dice is easily doable for a starting character.

He's not soaking 10 damage, he's soaking the damage from a Force 10 Stunbolt, which is only 4. You're still going to fail sometimes with 16 dice, but nowhere near as often as if the DV was 10.
Fortune
QUOTE (Eleazar)
He can get even more if he wants to from a power focus or mentor spirit. The dice can be used in the spellcasting test or withheld for the drain resistance. So with a power focus 2 and a mentor spirit assisting with 2 dice, you could have 20 dice for drain resistance at chargen. This comes at a rather large cost of maxing out two

Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.
Tarantula
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Nychuus @ Sep 18 2007, 10:45 PM)
QUOTE (john_doe @ Sep 18 2007, 10:34 PM)
Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

Willpower and Logic are both augmentable with 'ware. With an Exceptional Attribute, Cerebral Booster 3, and Pain Editor, 15 dice are possible with room for 2 more. Take Bear as a mentor and thats +2 dice for physical drain. Make your bioware alpha grade and you can even fit in a Trauma Dampener for a single auto-soak against stun drain and a single box dropped down to stun for physical drain.

Of course, you shouldn't forget the brilliance of just using Increase [Attribute] to raise drain attributes.

Of course, my favorite trick is to initiate once and grab Sacrificing, self-sacrifice the drain on your combat spell down to nothing, and then cast Heal on while cutting yourself open to reduce the drain on the heal spell so that you can stage it down to nothing. And then repeat on your new wound. And repeat again until you are fully healed.

Which is almost as good as getting Sacrificing, Invoking, while being a member of a tradition that can summon Plant and Guidance Spirits. Invoke one of each at low force with enough successes to get the optional powers, order the Guidance Spirit to Endow the Plant Spirit with Endowment and then have the Plant Spirit use Endowment to Endow you with Regeneration. Then, while you have regeneration, just use Sacrificing on yourself instead of taking drain.

Suppliment with a Life Pact or a Power Pact: Regeneration as needed. And use endowed or Power Pacted Essence Drain to increase your magic attribute by 5 or 6 while you're at it.

If you're going that route, just go for bloodzilla and be done with it.
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune)
Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

If by "are fine to use" you mean, "cannot be used," then you have read what the errata has to say about page 191 of your hymnal.
darthmord
QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 19 2007, 10:11 AM)
Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

If by "are fine to use" you mean, "cannot be used," then you have read what the errata has to say about page 191 of your hymnal.

Either you're wrong in your quoted text above or I missed what you were getting at.

Nothing in the errata indicates that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain tests.
Malachi
QUOTE (darthmord)
Nothing in the errata indicates that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain tests.

Ok, let's spell it out for you. SR4 errata, page 2, column 2, indicates a correction to page 191, under Spellcasting Foci. Here are the results of the errata:
QUOTE (SR4 Core @ pg. 191, showing errata corrections)

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may
be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the
magician with Drain.
  These dice may be used to cast a spell
more effectively as long as it is of the category appropriate to the
focus.

Note the removal of the "or withheld to help the magician with Drain."
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (darthmord @ Sep 19 2007, 12:20 PM)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 19 2007, 01:16 PM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 19 2007, 10:11 AM)
Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

If by "are fine to use" you mean, "cannot be used," then you have read what the errata has to say about page 191 of your hymnal.

Either you're wrong in your quoted text above or I missed what you were getting at.

Nothing in the errata indicates that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain tests.

QUOTE (original text of SR4 pg 191)
These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.


QUOTE (errata text)
These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus.

edit: I don't know how that little square got in there, sorry for the funny character.

Now aside from the obviously missing "is" in the errata, the point that the text "or withheld to help the magician with Drain" is now specifically excluded by the errata, does give a pretty strong implication in Aaron's favor that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain anymore. smile.gif

edit: yeah, what Malachi said!
Fortune
I believe the wording of the Errata is an unfortunate oversight. There has been no change to the wording of the similarly-functioning Spirit Focus rules as to Drain test usage.

If it were the case that Spellcasting Foci could not be used on Drain tests, then they are virtually worthless for their cost in both Karma and money when compared to a Power Focus. The one decent thing they could do was to assist with Drain for their specific category, which is something that Power Foci cannot do.
darthmord
Isn't casting the spell more effectively also imply casting it in such a manner as to minimize drain on you?

Effectiveness is measured in more ways than just raw power.

I'm inclined to agree with Fortune. The interpretation you showed above makes spellcasting foci next to worthless.

Time for some Errata for Errata perhaps?
James McMurray
I highly doubt it's an oversight, since there's no point at all in the erratta if its intent was not to prevent spellcasting foci from being used on Drain.
laughingowl
I belive what the errata is intended to be (or will be read in my games as is:)


QUOTE
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. Th ese dice may
be used to cast a spell more eff ectively or withheld to help the
magician with Drain.


QUOTE
p. 191 Spellcasting Foci [4]
the second line should read: “ these dice may be used to cast a spell more efectively as
long as it of the category appropriate to the focus.?



The modified (for my games and all I have played in) is:

QUOTE
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more efectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus  or withheld to help the magician with Drain.
Fortune
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 20 2007, 08:00 AM)
QUOTE
Spellcasting Foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus, or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

That is what I believe is intended.

James: The intent of the Errata is to point out the Spell Category limitation, which was not previously made clear.
James McMurray
If that's the intent, why go out of your way to remove the part about allowing them to apply to drain tests?

I'm not saying that wasn't the intent, just that if it was, someone was either really dumb or had another hidden agenda, because the change clearly removes drain tests.
Fortune
I just think that the actual wording of the change was not thought through enough. smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Bull)
Nowadays, that doesn;t work. But Stun Spells are still fraggin' cheap as dirt, espeially since, logically speaking, most enemies are not going to have very high will powers. Stun Spells are a million times better than most physical combat spells. :/

The only work around to to cheese the player back, unfortunately. Start tossing in extra mages with couterspelling dice, give ythe NPCs an extra point or two of WIllpower,or make them fight drones.

Stun-reliant mages hate drones smile.gif

Bull

Stun spells may be cheesy but so can AOE Indirect Combat spells. All you are doing is encouraging cheese in both areas instead of cheese in 1 area. Hey, but you'd call that a well rounded PC, won't you?
Aaron
QUOTE (Fortune)
I just think that the actual wording of the change was not thought through enough. smile.gif

Do you mean to say that the language is unclear, or that you wish it wasn't that way? =i)
Fortune
QUOTE (Aaron)
Do you mean to say that the language is unclear, or that you wish it wasn't that way? =i)

In all seriousness, the former. But you may take it any way you please.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 20 2007, 08:00 AM)
QUOTE
Spellcasting Foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus, or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

That is what I believe is intended.

James: The intent of the Errata is to point out the Spell Category limitation, which was not previously made clear.

I second this one. I believe the intent of the errata is to point out the spell category as well, not to remove the drain abilities.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Fortune)
thought through enough

Same letters, pronounced respectively "aw", "oo", "uh". Isn't English fun?
toturi
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 19 2007, 07:01 PM)
QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 20 2007, 08:00 AM)
QUOTE
Spellcasting Foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus, or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

That is what I believe is intended.

James: The intent of the Errata is to point out the Spell Category limitation, which was not previously made clear.

I second this one. I believe the intent of the errata is to point out the spell category as well, not to remove the drain abilities.

While I believe that is the intent as well, I have no proof and by the letter, drain resistance is removed.
Eleazar
Who is the "Errata Official Spokesperson" that would be able to tell use. I can almost always see anybody using a spellcasting focus for drain resistance unless they know they are going up against a lot of counterspelling and willpower.
darthmord
Well, in my 1st printing SR4 it is very clear how spellcasting foci can be used...

QUOTE
SR4 Page 191, Spell Foci

Spell foci empower a magician's Sorcery skills. There are three types of spell foci: Spellcasting foci, Counterspelling foci, and Sustaining foci. Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, etc) when it is created, and this cannot be changed.


Bolded text is emphasis mine. Each foci must be for a given category. No generic sustaining. You must have sustaining foci for detection if you wish to sustain Detection spells with a focus.

QUOTE
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.


What additional clarification was needed? Why was the errata written the way it was? The text already made it QUITE clear that a given type of spell foci had to be made for a given category of spells. As such, a spellcasting foci had to be for a certain group of spells. The rules already spelled that out.

The net result was that the Errata was NOT needed unless the purpose was to remove the ability to use spellcasting foci on the Drain Test or later printings really sporked up the text from the 1st Printing.
Fortune
The pieces that you quote are from two seperate sections, albeit on the same page. The entirety of the Spellcasting Focus listing was as follows ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 191)
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.


If a player was to just reference that section (which would be logical as that is where their function is described), then there is no mention that they apply only to their own category.

Questions were asked, and it would seem that clarification was in order.

There would be no reason to remove the Drain applications of Spellcasting Foci (and only Spellcasting Foci, leaving Summoning Foci free of this supposed limitation), as that makes them virtually useless pieces of junk.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Fortune)
The pieces that you quote are from two seperate sections, albeit on the same page. The entirety of the Spellcasting Focus listing was as follows ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 191)
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.


If a player was to just reference that section (which would be logical as that is where their function is described), then there is no mention that they apply only to their own category.

Questions were asked, and it would seem that clarification was in order.

There would be no reason to remove the Drain applications of Spellcasting Foci (and only Spellcasting Foci, leaving Summoning Foci free of this supposed limitation), as that makes them virtually useless pieces of junk.

They aren't seperate at all. In fact, the errataed text follows immediately after the text limitting all foci.

Prior to errata, the text looked like this.
"Spell Foci
Spell foci empower a magician's Sorcery skills. There are three types of spell foci: Spellcasting foci, Counterspelling foci, and Sustaining foci. Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, etc) when it is created, and this cannot be changed.
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain."

Post errata, the text would look like this.
"Spell Foci
Spell foci empower a magician's Sorcery skills. There are three types of spell foci: Spellcasting foci, Counterspelling foci, and Sustaining foci. Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, etc) when it is created, and this cannot be changed.
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it is of the category appropriate to the focus."


I've gotta say, with the errata, it seems fairly redundant about the category limitation.
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