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Maximum Force, Questioin about spells

Naysayer View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 02:32 PM Post #26
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 9-December 06 From: the Maaatlock-Expressway! Member No.: 10,326	Also, if they're not already completely lost to the Cheese Side, it sometimes works to "reward" them for using physical/indirect combat spells. Emphasize on the secondary effects, and also the psychological effects of having a fireball detonate right smack in the middle of a horde of mooks. Cook off some ammo, let them roll around on the floor, trying to put out the flames, amp up on the FX. Don't overdo it, of course, a meager Force 1 Fireball shouldn't blow up CRTs on a regular basis, but for a lot of players, making shit go boom can be more satisfying than rolling a ton of dice just to make some random npc drop down. If they ARE real, rotten-to-the-core cheesemonkeys, let them have their fun for a while, if it gets too wild, amp up the opposition, not necessarily with tons of mojo, just more nasty tricks. suppressive fire, smoke grenades, cover, and random meteor strikes are all pefectly good ways to show a player that he is offsetting the fun-had-per-group-member ratio.

James McMurray

Sep 19 2007, 02:38 PM

Post #27

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Cain)

Granted, soaking 10 damage with 16 dice is still iffy, and probably won't happen on a regular basis, but 16 dice is easily doable for a starting character.

He's not soaking 10 damage, he's soaking the damage from a Force 10 Stunbolt, which is only 4. You're still going to fail sometimes with 16 dice, but nowhere near as often as if the DV was 10.

Fortune

Sep 19 2007, 03:11 PM

Post #28

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Eleazar)

He can get even more if he wants to from a power focus or mentor spirit. The dice can be used in the spellcasting test or withheld for the drain resistance. So with a power focus 2 and a mentor spirit assisting with 2 dice, you could have 20 dice for drain resistance at chargen. This comes at a rather large cost of maxing out two

Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

Tarantula

Sep 19 2007, 03:40 PM

Post #29

Dragon

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Nychuus @ Sep 18 2007, 10:45 PM)

QUOTE (john_doe @ Sep 18 2007, 10:34 PM)

Then maybe our mage made the character wrong, because they would be casting force 10 stunballs like they were nothing, seemed to be rolling almost 16 dice to resist drain and i think only once took the drain out of god knows how many castings.

His sheet may need a closer inspection...

Err... Resisting drain is Willpower + (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). So unless he cheesed out those stats for the 12 dice (unless he used an edge point) I think you should take a look at it.

Furthermore, minimum drain is always 1. So overcasting to a 10 force stunball will always net him at least 1 physical damage point.

Willpower and Logic are both augmentable with 'ware. With an Exceptional Attribute, Cerebral Booster 3, and Pain Editor, 15 dice are possible with room for 2 more. Take Bear as a mentor and thats +2 dice for physical drain. Make your bioware alpha grade and you can even fit in a Trauma Dampener for a single auto-soak against stun drain and a single box dropped down to stun for physical drain.

Of course, you shouldn't forget the brilliance of just using Increase [Attribute] to raise drain attributes.

Of course, my favorite trick is to initiate once and grab Sacrificing, self-sacrifice the drain on your combat spell down to nothing, and then cast Heal on while cutting yourself open to reduce the drain on the heal spell so that you can stage it down to nothing. And then repeat on your new wound. And repeat again until you are fully healed.

Which is almost as good as getting Sacrificing, Invoking, while being a member of a tradition that can summon Plant and Guidance Spirits. Invoke one of each at low force with enough successes to get the optional powers, order the Guidance Spirit to Endow the Plant Spirit with Endowment and then have the Plant Spirit use Endowment to Endow you with Regeneration. Then, while you have regeneration, just use Sacrificing on yourself instead of taking drain.

Suppliment with a Life Pact or a Power Pact: Regeneration as needed. And use endowed or Power Pacted Essence Drain to increase your magic attribute by 5 or 6 while you're at it.

If you're going that route, just go for bloodzilla and be done with it.

Aaron

Sep 19 2007, 05:16 PM

Post #30

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Fortune)

Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

If by "are fine to use" you mean, "cannot be used," then you have read what the errata has to say about page 191 of your hymnal.

darthmord

Sep 19 2007, 05:20 PM

Post #31

Running Target

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QUOTE (Aaron)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 19 2007, 10:11 AM)

Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

If by "are fine to use" you mean, "cannot be used," then you have read what the errata has to say about page 191 of your hymnal.

Either you're wrong in your quoted text above or I missed what you were getting at.

Nothing in the errata indicates that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain tests.

Malachi

Sep 19 2007, 05:35 PM

Post #32

Running Target

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QUOTE (darthmord)

Nothing in the errata indicates that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain tests.

Ok, let's spell it out for you. SR4 errata, page 2, column 2, indicates a correction to page 191, under Spellcasting Foci. Here are the results of the errata:

QUOTE (SR4 Core @ pg. 191, showing errata corrections)

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may
be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the
magician with Drain. These dice may be used to cast a spell
more effectively as long as it is of the category appropriate to the
focus.

Note the removal of the "or withheld to help the magician with Drain."

Moon-Hawk

Sep 19 2007, 05:38 PM

Post #33

Genuine Artificial Intelligence

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QUOTE (darthmord @ Sep 19 2007, 12:20 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 19 2007, 01:16 PM)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 19 2007, 10:11 AM)

Power Foci cannot be used for Drain. Only for tests that include the Magic Attribute. Spellcasting Foci, on the other hand, are fine to use in the Drain test.

If by "are fine to use" you mean, "cannot be used," then you have read what the errata has to say about page 191 of your hymnal.

Either you're wrong in your quoted text above or I missed what you were getting at.

Nothing in the errata indicates that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain tests.

QUOTE (original text of SR4 pg 191)

These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

QUOTE (errata text)

These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus.

edit: I don't know how that little square got in there, sorry for the funny character.

Now aside from the obviously missing "is" in the errata, the point that the text "or withheld to help the magician with Drain" is now specifically excluded by the errata, does give a pretty strong implication in Aaron's favor that spellcasting foci can't be used for drain anymore. :)

edit: yeah, what Malachi said!

Fortune View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 07:28 PM Post #34
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I believe the wording of the Errata is an unfortunate oversight. There has been no change to the wording of the similarly-functioning Spirit Focus rules as to Drain test usage. If it were the case that Spellcasting Foci could not be used on Drain tests, then they are virtually worthless for their cost in both Karma and money when compared to a Power Focus. The one decent thing they could do was to assist with Drain for their specific category, which is something that Power Foci cannot do.

darthmord View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 07:41 PM Post #35
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548	Isn't casting the spell more effectively also imply casting it in such a manner as to minimize drain on you? Effectiveness is measured in more ways than just raw power. I'm inclined to agree with Fortune. The interpretation you showed above makes spellcasting foci next to worthless. Time for some Errata for Errata perhaps?

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 19 2007, 08:08 PM Post #36
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	I highly doubt it's an oversight, since there's no point at all in the erratta if its intent was not to prevent spellcasting foci from being used on Drain.

laughingowl

Sep 19 2007, 10:00 PM

Post #37

Moving Target

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I belive what the errata is intended to be (or will be read in my games as is:)

QUOTE

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. Th ese dice may
be used to cast a spell more eff ectively or withheld to help the
magician with Drain.

QUOTE

p. 191 Spellcasting Foci [4]
the second line should read: â€œ these dice may be used to cast a spell more efectively as
long as it of the category appropriate to the focus.â€?

The modified (for my games and all I have played in) is:

QUOTE

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more efectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

Fortune

Sep 20 2007, 01:01 AM

Post #38

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 20 2007, 08:00 AM)

QUOTE

Spellcasting Foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus, or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

That is what I believe is intended.

James: The intent of the Errata is to point out the Spell Category limitation, which was not previously made clear.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 20 2007, 01:09 AM Post #39
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	If that's the intent, why go out of your way to remove the part about allowing them to apply to drain tests? I'm not saying that wasn't the intent, just that if it was, someone was either really dumb or had another hidden agenda, because the change clearly removes drain tests.

Fortune View Member Profile	Sep 20 2007, 01:17 AM Post #40
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I just think that the actual wording of the change was not thought through enough. :)

toturi

Sep 20 2007, 01:29 AM

Post #41

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QUOTE (Bull)

Nowadays, that doesn;t work. But Stun Spells are still fraggin' cheap as dirt, espeially since, logically speaking, most enemies are not going to have very high will powers. Stun Spells are a million times better than most physical combat spells. :/

The only work around to to cheese the player back, unfortunately. Start tossing in extra mages with couterspelling dice, give ythe NPCs an extra point or two of WIllpower,or make them fight drones.

Stun-reliant mages hate drones :)

Bull

Stun spells may be cheesy but so can AOE Indirect Combat spells. All you are doing is encouraging cheese in both areas instead of cheese in 1 area. Hey, but you'd call that a well rounded PC, won't you?

Aaron

Sep 20 2007, 03:09 AM

Post #42

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Fortune)

I just think that the actual wording of the change was not thought through enough. :)

Do you mean to say that the language is unclear, or that you wish it wasn't that way? =i)

Fortune

Sep 20 2007, 05:53 AM

Post #43

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Aaron)

Do you mean to say that the language is unclear, or that you wish it wasn't that way? =i)

In all seriousness, the former. But you may take it any way you please.

Tarantula

Sep 20 2007, 02:43 PM

Post #44

Dragon

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QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 20 2007, 08:00 AM)

QUOTE

Spellcasting Foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus, or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

That is what I believe is intended.

James: The intent of the Errata is to point out the Spell Category limitation, which was not previously made clear.

I second this one. I believe the intent of the errata is to point out the spell category as well, not to remove the drain abilities.

pbangarth

Sep 20 2007, 03:32 PM

Post #45

Old Man of the North

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QUOTE (Fortune)

thought through enough

Same letters, pronounced respectively "aw", "oo", "uh". Isn't English fun?

toturi

Sep 20 2007, 03:45 PM

Post #46

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QUOTE (Tarantula)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 19 2007, 07:01 PM)

QUOTE (laughingowl @ Sep 20 2007, 08:00 AM)

QUOTE

Spellcasting Foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. these dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it of the category appropriate to the focus, or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

That is what I believe is intended.

James: The intent of the Errata is to point out the Spell Category limitation, which was not previously made clear.

I second this one. I believe the intent of the errata is to point out the spell category as well, not to remove the drain abilities.

While I believe that is the intent as well, I have no proof and by the letter, drain resistance is removed.

Eleazar View Member Profile	Sep 20 2007, 04:04 PM Post #47
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130	Who is the "Errata Official Spokesperson" that would be able to tell use. I can almost always see anybody using a spellcasting focus for drain resistance unless they know they are going up against a lot of counterspelling and willpower.

darthmord

Sep 20 2007, 11:05 PM

Post #48

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Well, in my 1st printing SR4 it is very clear how spellcasting foci can be used...

QUOTE

SR4 Page 191, Spell Foci

Spell foci empower a magician's Sorcery skills. There are three types of spell foci: Spellcasting foci, Counterspelling foci, and Sustaining foci. Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, etc) when it is created, and this cannot be changed.

Bolded text is emphasis mine. Each foci must be for a given category. No generic sustaining. You must have sustaining foci for detection if you wish to sustain Detection spells with a focus.

QUOTE

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

What additional clarification was needed? Why was the errata written the way it was? The text already made it QUITE clear that a given type of spell foci had to be made for a given category of spells. As such, a spellcasting foci had to be for a certain group of spells. The rules already spelled that out.

The net result was that the Errata was NOT needed unless the purpose was to remove the ability to use spellcasting foci on the Drain Test or later printings really sporked up the text from the 1st Printing.

Fortune

Sep 20 2007, 11:23 PM

Post #49

Immoral Elf

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The pieces that you quote are from two seperate sections, albeit on the same page. The entirety of the Spellcasting Focus listing was as follows ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 191)

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

If a player was to just reference that section (which would be logical as that is where their function is described), then there is no mention that they apply only to their own category.

Questions were asked, and it would seem that clarification was in order.

There would be no reason to remove the Drain applications of Spellcasting Foci (and only Spellcasting Foci, leaving Summoning Foci free of this supposed limitation), as that makes them virtually useless pieces of junk.

Tarantula

Sep 20 2007, 11:37 PM

Post #50

Dragon

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QUOTE (Fortune)

The pieces that you quote are from two seperate sections, albeit on the same page. The entirety of the Spellcasting Focus listing was as follows ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 191)

Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magicianâ€™s Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain.

If a player was to just reference that section (which would be logical as that is where their function is described), then there is no mention that they apply only to their own category.

Questions were asked, and it would seem that clarification was in order.

There would be no reason to remove the Drain applications of Spellcasting Foci (and only Spellcasting Foci, leaving Summoning Foci free of this supposed limitation), as that makes them virtually useless pieces of junk.

They aren't seperate at all. In fact, the errataed text follows immediately after the text limitting all foci.

Prior to errata, the text looked like this.
"Spell Foci
Spell foci empower a magician's Sorcery skills. There are three types of spell foci: Spellcasting foci, Counterspelling foci, and Sustaining foci. Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, etc) when it is created, and this cannot be changed.
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively or withheld to help the magician with Drain."

Post errata, the text would look like this.
"Spell Foci
Spell foci empower a magician's Sorcery skills. There are three types of spell foci: Spellcasting foci, Counterspelling foci, and Sustaining foci. Each spell focus must be attuned to a specific category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, etc) when it is created, and this cannot be changed.
Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician's Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell more effectively as long as it is of the category appropriate to the focus."

I've gotta say, with the errata, it seems fairly redundant about the category limitation.

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