 Stats on a Spy, anyone got stats on Michael Western? |
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 Sep 21 2007, 08:11 PM
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#26
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence  Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715  |
Indeed. Which is why it is so absurd to make any assumptions about what people of the future would or would not do, and I will make no statements about what I think the people of the future would or would not do. Now bringing this back to Shadowrun, we're not trying to figure out what people would or would not do. We already know, because the setting tells us. It tells us that executives have cyberware packages designed for their lifestyle. It tells us that you can get your eyes scooped out and replaced at a bodyshop in the mall. It tells us that cops (SWAT members at least) have wired reflexes and smartlinks. It tells us that people commonly use simsense to get their AR fix, despite the dangers. It tells us that many items of cyberware are so cheap and available that they are not only legal, but they can be secured on the street in a matter of days and in some cases hours. Lucky for us, we don't have to predict what the people of Shadowrun would do, because the game has a setting, and it already tells us. So stuff like this:
We don't have to figure out why; we are free of the burden of trying to predict the attitudes of the people of Shadowrun, the game setting has already taken care of this for us. Lucky us!
No one is forcing you to use the standard setting, but I'm sick of hearing people say things like "people wouldn't do that", when we know that they would and they do because the setting has already told us that this is Shadowrun and that's how it is, and any argument about the attitudes of fictional future people based on the attitudes of real contemporary people is speculative at best, and more often than not absurd. |
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Sep 21 2007, 08:34 PM
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#27
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
SKills
Athletics Group 2 (this gives him gymnastics dodge) Unarmed Combat 3 (give him either Hardliner Gloves or better yet, a Shock Glove) Bioware: Clean metabolism (leaves no scent, no Faux-pa's at social gatherings). Rating 1 Synaptic boosting (gives him a bit of an edge should an altercation occur) Rating 1 Tailored Pheromones Rating 2 Synthcardium Cyber: Datajack (induction pad) Visual: (non Cyber Replacement) Vision Enhancement Low Light (if not an orc or elf) Image link Camera Hearing (non cyber replacement) Audio Enhancement Select Sound Filter Sound Link Agreed that some of the Nanoware would be very useful especially the fingerprint/handprint enhancement and the full body disguise (I forget what these are called) Positive Qualities: First Impression (very worth the 5BPs for this character) Negative Qualities: Multiple personality Disorder - this would only work if he was previously "conditioned" for assignments using Aliasofts (originally SOTA 64 had the Incomplete Deprogramming flaw which covered this) Another one that I had for my 3rd ed fallen angel character Night Angel (#4 for those who are counting.) was Dossier on File. Scorched (also works if Aliasofts were used in his backstory) The one failing point of doing a secret agent/spy character is the lack of neat spy toys. SOTA 64 had rules for disguising items as everyday objects. Night Angel (sorry guys, multiple occurrences of the character in the same post don't count :grinbig: ), had a lot of these from a Micro Transceiver necklace to a Sequencer that looked like a normal PDA. |
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Sep 21 2007, 08:43 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
1. The existence of body shops doesn't mean that everyone uses them. Tattoo shops are very common today, you can simply go into one and get a tattoo in no time. Does this mean, the majority does have tattoos? Cyberware is still expensive, even a little mod costs much money - so the body shops don't need that many customers to surivive. 2. Of course cops are cybered. Does this mean, everyone else must be cybered? No, surely not. Wired Reflexes and Smartlinks are a great example, because they are restricted, so most people won't have them. Military? Sure! Cops? Very likely. Private Security? Also likely. Joe Anyone? Surely not. A military trank driver will probably have a Control rig, because it makes him more effective, but most people don't have much gain from cyberware. 3. Shadowrun doesn't tell us how many people are cybered. 10%? 50%? 90%? Show me a page number and I'll admit that I'm wrong, but afaik there isn't a statistic, is there? So no, the setting isn't absolutely clear - that's just your asumption which you want to sell as the absolute truth. I don't say that noone is cybered, but I don't think that the majority is cybered. Personally, I believe, that not even the majority of all people with middle lifestyle and higher is cybered. And btw: WHY is imho the most important question. If I tell you, that 99% of all people in setting X hate woman (including other woman), you can of course accept it - but if you know WHY, you will be able to be a much better GM and make the world much, much more alive. So knowing WHY people in Shadowrun act like the authors want them to act is very important to GM a consistent world. "Everyone is cybered" is nice, but if you know WHY they are, you can much better show the players how the people think... Your NPCs will be much more alive if you think about the "WHY" and not just about the "WHAT". So to get back on topic: I think in most cases a spy will not be very noteable, just because he has no cyberware. In a typical corp environment, the most likely cyberware (imho) is an internal comlink - and that's a problem for our spy, because changing the ID via hardware would be a very cumbersome process :-) Of course, noone will look twice if the spy has a datajack and some other cyberware - but it makes him more... individual. Without cyberware you can be almost everyone, with cyberware you're starting to get restricted. |
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Sep 21 2007, 08:54 PM
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#29
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..as long as there is no "R" or "F" afterwards it shouldn't really raise an eyebrow.
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Sep 21 2007, 09:01 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Of course not. That's not what I want to say. A spy with "normal" and "legal" cyberware will normaly not attract more attention than a spy without cyberware. In some special circumstances having cyberware (or not having cyberware) WILL attract attention, but normaly of course not.
It's just some kind of feeling, that a spy without cyberware could have an edge over one with cyberware, simply because he's more... generic. Cyberware makes you special (because even if anyone has cyberware, not everyone will have the same ware, etc.). But that's just a personal feeling... |
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Sep 21 2007, 09:07 PM
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#31
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Irian, you've managed to refute everything that I didn't say.
I completely agree. I never said that everyone did, so I don't know what this proves.
You're the one claiming certainty here, not me.
Maybe it would help if you quoted my exact assumption, because I don't remember saying exactly how many people I thought were cybered. All I'm suggesting is that getting cyberware isn't necessarily conspicuous and that certain cyberware might be normal and not looked at twice, based on the knowledge of the game world that we do have. Let's just clear this up: I did not assert that most people have cyberware. I just want to leave that possibility open. You're the one who made the assertion about the prevalence of cyberware, not me.
All I ever said was that this might not be the case, and it's not safe to make this kind of assumption.
As for why: Because it's cheap and convenient and the commercials tell you that you want it. |
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Sep 22 2007, 12:55 AM
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#32
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...that's what all those Budweiser, Miller, Coors Lite, and Heineken commercials keep telling me, so why do choose to drink Fish Tail™ Mudshark Porter instead? ....sorry, it's Friday & I'm finally off the clock (wheeee). :grinbig: |
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Sep 22 2007, 01:01 AM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
pg. 11 Augmentation
Chris |
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Sep 22 2007, 02:18 AM
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#34
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Good job finding that quote. :) |
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Sep 22 2007, 03:34 AM
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#35
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
*hands in the air* Preach on, brother. |
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Sep 22 2007, 07:15 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Photographic Memory(as modified by pain) is a handy tool for quoting rules at people. Also tends to make me a little more rule conscious than I should be, but I try not to let it affect me overmuch.
Chris |
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Sep 22 2007, 07:42 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Good quote, thanks. |
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Sep 22 2007, 08:38 AM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I live but to serve.
Chris |
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Sep 22 2007, 08:58 AM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As you should. |
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Sep 22 2007, 02:48 PM
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#40
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Wow! I have a new hero! :love: Amazingly well said. |
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Sep 23 2007, 02:47 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,336 |
pretty sure its Michael Westin, not Western.
Big big focus on skills, especially tradecraft. only combat skills should probably be pistols and unarmed, remember, spy, not super spy. Cyberware depends entirely on the type of assignments you get, but I imagine, as people have already said, mostly subtle and common stuff, all hardwired, nothing hackable. |
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Sep 24 2007, 10:20 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
re: Chris's quote from Augmentation :
"Body Augmentation" falls into many categories, even today. Hair recoloring: TONS of women (and men) do this. If people could recolor eyes as well, I imagine that might be popular too. Tattoos/Piercings. While not as mainstream, it's still common enough. Earrings, especially, are VERY common. I imagine that some cyber (e.g., commlinks, datajacks, or some eyeware (imagelink) might be relatively common. The existence of non-implanted vision/hearing mods mean that I think those are the more likely flavor. (Why get surgery, when I can get wireless SmartContacts that can show me my data?) Combat ware: Clearly, average joes won't have these, except perhaps guards or people with military history. Would armies remove the smartlink and other cheap cyber from people leaving the service? (They'd likely recycle the Wired Reflexes and stuff in mostcases. ;)) I think that the 50% figure is primarily cosmetic alterations or business-related ones. I think it's better for the prospective spy character to take as few implants as necessary, and opt for external ones (like image link contacts) when they can. |
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Sep 24 2007, 11:15 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I've never seen a whole episode of this show, mainly because I don't have cable and because its usually just getting busy when I try to catch it at work. Still, it looks good.
I've always wondered how the military would handle cybered soldiers who are coming to the end of their enlistment. If they take the cyber out, that leaves them with gaping holes in their essence (right? Or is this another change in 4e that I haven't caught up on?) which would penalize them if they wanted other cyber down the road. Does the military allow the soldiers to buy the cyber themselves at a reduced cost? Is it used as a type of re-enlistment bonus? (If today the Army is willing to give 20k for someone to go Infantry, in 2070 would they be pimping cyber packages? It seems likely.) I would think with any non-punative discharge the cyberware wouldn't automatically be removed-- assuming it was something a citizen could have legally. Even then, its possible that someone going from military service to law enforcement could have the licenses transferred. If they couldn't get the license transferred, if they owned their Wired they could have it deactivated rather than risking another surgery or having it yanked. |
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Sep 24 2007, 11:52 PM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The quote does specify augmentations, and personal enhancement rather than cosmetic modification. If we are merely talking about cosmetic modification, we should be well over the 50% mark even today. |
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Sep 25 2007, 12:24 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
The "... and business-related ones" was where I lumped most of that in. I figure that many wageslaves would have datajacks, and possibly sim modules even. Labor workers or other drivers might have some skills chipped (like for vehicular operation), but ... most peons wouldn't need high skills in things like that, so maybe not. Some likely have work-related things like encephalons or other stuff. Also, remember that those figures probably also only include people with SINs, with some hand-waving about the black market. Of course, the fragmented nature of society into corporations as well as nation-states, and the existence of the (apparently) large security and police industry (as we discussed in a different thread) means that a sizeable portion are also smartlinked. But, when you look at the sheer bulk of humanity (for example, the populations living in arcologies and the like), what would most people need/want for their general life? Toys: - datajack w/ simlink/imagelink - probably a commlink (So you can't lose it by accident) - tracheal filter or something (hey, the sprawl has nasty air) these are the equivalent of people having a cellular phone, where an implanted one is a status symbol. People like it so they can read the newspaper, listen to music, drive their car, etc. Flashy Toys: - cybereyes: probably the equivalent of the IPhone -- tech-geeks drool over wiz blue cybereyes. :cyber: ( ::shiver:: at memories from reading Renraku Shutdown ...) - I'm at a loss. What would you put in the category that the non-shadowrunner demographic would be using? Tools: - datajack, mnemonic enhancers, encephalons, etc. The general public will likely not be getting platelet factories, pain resistance, orthoskin, wired reflexes, or skillwires. Now, the generally dangerous world might mean that in some areas, cyberlimbs are more common ... especially among war veterans. So, some kinds of chrome are still rarer than others. It's probably unwise for a covert-ops type to have obvious chrome, as that makes them stand out and be more memorable. Blandness works to the spy's advantage, as they can more easily tweak their appearance. (Cybereyes are probably Just Fine, as I believe they have non-obvious ones.) |
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Sep 25 2007, 12:32 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Cyber eyes and ears are both things that would be flashy toys.
You end up with an omnipresent screen for your commlink and omnipresent headphones. Plus you can get various things like sound filters to get rid of the traffic noise. The number of times I have accidentally had my headphones come out, or the fiddling with the volume control in a high traffic area, the potential to get rid of these AND get rid of my glasses is something I would be very excited over. |
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Sep 25 2007, 01:02 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
Yeah. Not to mention that some people I know have very bad eyesight, and would love to get laser surgery. When you read about THAT procedure, it's not all that much different from cybereye implantation ... except that you're awake for it. ;) The cost of new electronic eyes is also less than laser surgery is today. This is probably because you can mass-produce them (though, the implantation process is likely more complex ;)). Someone else had really interesting points on the costs of 'ware vs the average lifestyle costs (which we presume match wages fairly well). Apologies for not attributing correctly, but I was impressed. |
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Sep 25 2007, 01:28 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
There's also the possibility of cyberware to correct genetic or acquired flaws. I have some noise induced hearing loss both from years of working in bars (loud music) and from my time in the Marines (loud music plus some live fire ranges). People who work in noise-heavy jobs might have Select Sound Filters or something similar.
The other side of this when it comes to Low-Light Vision is who doesn't want to see in the dark. I mean, if its a relatively simple, safe, affordable surgery, why not get low-light and flare comp? A friend of mine is an armed guard who works at a liquor store and a gas station. He's bought his own vest and firearm. If it was up to him, he'd have dermal, smartlinks, cybereyes and probably anything else he could get. Not because his job is particularly dangerous (I think he's been at a place when it was robbed once in 10 years), but because the instinct is to err on the side of caution. The thing about toys is, they're cool. We shouldn't underestimate that factor. |
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Sep 25 2007, 03:08 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 25-August 07 Member No.: 12,882 |
Dude,
You can ask me! (St23am is a player in my game, we are running concurrent games set in Cincinnati.) -Donk |
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Sep 25 2007, 05:11 PM
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#50
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
This certainly might be the case for liberal western societies but what about the rest of the world? Much more socially conservative western countries like the Free State of Thuringia in the AGS or the Tir, never mind Amazonia or the majority of the Middle East have a major prejudice against cyberware IIRC. For what little extra benefit you receive from having the cyber version as opposed to external things is that really enough to possibly bar them from, or at least make things much more difficult during, deployments in a large section of the worlds countries? |
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