That occured to me too. I've found that playing such a character is a lot of fun and in a lot of ways it turns out a lot like this.

I just thought that no cyber at all could stick out a bit in 2070?

As you can access full VR with trodes, there's absolutely no need to get a datajack. And a "normal" corp employe doesn't need artificial eyes or ears... So I think that most people in 2070 are not cybered...

I think of it sort of like personal electronics today. If a guy has a digital watch, a cell phone and is listening to a MP3 player, you don't look twice at him.

I think it will be the same in 2070 with cyberware. Eyes, ears, jacks, skillwires, implant commlinks, it's just part of the landscape.

Now, if you have rat4 eyes, rat4 ears and rating 5 skillwires, that might raise some eyebrows... but it doesn't' mark you as a 'runner.

Perfectly valid points, nobody _needs_ the items mentioned. No one today _needs_ a cellphone. Or a watch. Or MP3 player.

We just want them.

It will be no different in 2070. They will be convenience items. They will be status items.

To put these in perspective, most of us are probably middle lifestyle in S4 terms. Eyes ears and jacks each cost 10% of a months total bills. Skillwires are a little more than one month's bills.

Balance this with people today who spend 2-3 months bills just to change the way they look.

I'm not really convinced, sorry. Spending money to look better, ok, that's what people will always do - they do since someone invented make-up and jewelry. But I can't imagine that a woman who would pay much money today to look better will pay much money in 2070 to get her eyes ripped out and replaced by cameras with infravision or lowlight.

MP3 players, cellphones, etc. - surely. Everyone wants a comlink. But why should anyone want to get one into their brain? Listening to music is something people do - but running around and having lowlight? Why should a "normal" person want that?

Some computer freaks, programmers, data workers, etc. will perhaps want to have a datajack - at least as long as trodes aren't equally good. Some corp people will want to have their comlink implanted, along with some headware memory. Many professional drivers, etc. will want to have control rig, ok.

But most people simply don't need cyberware. Why should they want it? "Cool" things like Nanotattoos - sure, of course, many people will want to have these. But how many people need or want artificial ears? Of course there will be enough transhumanists, who really want to get better without any really practical reason (similar to the people who train every day for big muscles without ever having a real use for them), but this people will not be the majority.

Bioware is perhaps another matter - except for a datajack (unless good trodes are available) I personally wouldn't want cyberware, but I would really like to get my hands on some of the bioware goodies, because they make your life better (less sleep, less fat, less smell, better memory, etc.). Who cares about lowlight, but being imune to many diseases? Cool.

So personally I still think that most people in 2070 are uncybered - perhaps even less people than 2040 and 50. Bioware could be more common - if it wasn't that expensive.

Doesn't bother me a bit. Enjoy your game.

Except at the most basic level, human culture and fads are even harder to predict than technology. I fully expect the 2070s to be completely unrecognizable to my 2007 self.

It is virtually guaranteed that the people of our future will do things which would shock and horrify us. Were we able to glimpse our own future we would riot and panic and do anything possible to prevent it.
Similarly, the people of the future will look back at us and consider us ignorant savages for thinking so.
What would someone from 200 years ago think about our attitudes towards entertainment, sexuality, and race?

It is perfectly reasonable to think that "people of the future" would find our reluctance to replace our fallible meat with superior technology quaint, at best.

Indeed. Which is why it is so absurd to make any assumptions about what people of the future would or would not do, and I will make no statements about what I think the people of the future would or would not do.

Now bringing this back to Shadowrun, we're not trying to figure out what people would or would not do. We already know, because the setting tells us. It tells us that executives have cyberware packages designed for their lifestyle. It tells us that you can get your eyes scooped out and replaced at a bodyshop in the mall. It tells us that cops (SWAT members at least) have wired reflexes and smartlinks. It tells us that people commonly use simsense to get their AR fix, despite the dangers. It tells us that many items of cyberware are so cheap and available that they are not only legal, but they can be secured on the street in a matter of days and in some cases hours.
Lucky for us, we don't have to predict what the people of Shadowrun would do, because the game has a setting, and it already tells us.
So stuff like this:

We don't have to figure out why; we are free of the burden of trying to predict the attitudes of the people of Shadowrun, the game setting has already taken care of this for us. Lucky us!
No one is forcing you to use the standard setting, but I'm sick of hearing people say things like "people wouldn't do that", when we know that they would and they do because the setting has already told us that this is Shadowrun and that's how it is, and any argument about the attitudes of fictional future people based on the attitudes of real contemporary people is speculative at best, and more often than not absurd.

1. The existence of body shops doesn't mean that everyone uses them. Tattoo shops are very common today, you can simply go into one and get a tattoo in no time. Does this mean, the majority does have tattoos? Cyberware is still expensive, even a little mod costs much money - so the body shops don't need that many customers to surivive.

2. Of course cops are cybered. Does this mean, everyone else must be cybered? No, surely not. Wired Reflexes and Smartlinks are a great example, because they are restricted, so most people won't have them. Military? Sure! Cops? Very likely. Private Security? Also likely. Joe Anyone? Surely not.
A military trank driver will probably have a Control rig, because it makes him more effective, but most people don't have much gain from cyberware.

3. Shadowrun doesn't tell us how many people are cybered. 10%? 50%? 90%? Show me a page number and I'll admit that I'm wrong, but afaik there isn't a statistic, is there? So no, the setting isn't absolutely clear - that's just your asumption which you want to sell as the absolute truth.

I don't say that noone is cybered, but I don't think that the majority is cybered. Personally, I believe, that not even the majority of all people with middle lifestyle and higher is cybered.

And btw: WHY is imho the most important question. If I tell you, that 99% of all people in setting X hate woman (including other woman), you can of course accept it - but if you know WHY, you will be able to be a much better GM and make the world much, much more alive. So knowing WHY people in Shadowrun act like the authors want them to act is very important to GM a consistent world. "Everyone is cybered" is nice, but if you know WHY they are, you can much better show the players how the people think... Your NPCs will be much more alive if you think about the "WHY" and not just about the "WHAT".

So to get back on topic: I think in most cases a spy will not be very noteable, just because he has no cyberware. In a typical corp environment, the most likely cyberware (imho) is an internal comlink - and that's a problem for our spy, because changing the ID via hardware would be a very cumbersome process Of course, noone will look twice if the spy has a datajack and some other cyberware - but it makes him more... individual. Without cyberware you can be almost everyone, with cyberware you're starting to get restricted.

I completely agree. I never said that everyone did, so I don't know what this proves.

You're the one claiming certainty here, not me.

Maybe it would help if you quoted my exact assumption, because I don't remember saying exactly how many people I thought were cybered.

All I'm suggesting is that getting cyberware isn't necessarily conspicuous and that certain cyberware might be normal and not looked at twice, based on the knowledge of the game world that we do have.
Let's just clear this up: I did not assert that most people have cyberware. I just want to leave that possibility open. You're the one who made the assertion about the prevalence of cyberware, not me.

All I ever said was that this might not be the case, and it's not safe to make this kind of assumption.


As for why: Because it's cheap and convenient and the commercials tell you that you want it.

...that's what all those Budweiser, Miller, Coors Lite, and Heineken commercials keep telling me, so why do choose to drink Fish Tail™ Mudshark Porter instead?

....sorry, it's Friday & I'm finally off the clock (wheeee).

Chris

Good job finding that quote.

*hands in the air*

Preach on, brother.

Good quote, thanks.

As you should.

Wow! I have a new hero!

Amazingly well said.

"Body Augmentation" falls into many categories, even today.

Hair recoloring: TONS of women (and men) do this. If people could recolor eyes as well, I imagine that might be popular too.

Tattoos/Piercings. While not as mainstream, it's still common enough. Earrings, especially, are VERY common. I imagine that some cyber (e.g., commlinks, datajacks, or some eyeware (imagelink) might be relatively common. The existence of non-implanted vision/hearing mods mean that I think those are the more likely flavor. (Why get surgery, when I can get wireless SmartContacts that can show me my data?)

Combat ware: Clearly, average joes won't have these, except perhaps guards or people with military history. Would armies remove the smartlink and other cheap cyber from people leaving the service? (They'd likely recycle the Wired Reflexes and stuff in mostcases. )

I think that the 50% figure is primarily cosmetic alterations or business-related ones. I think it's better for the prospective spy character to take as few implants as necessary, and opt for external ones (like image link contacts) when they can.

The quote does specify augmentations, and personal enhancement rather than cosmetic modification.

If we are merely talking about cosmetic modification, we should be well over the 50% mark even today.

The "... and business-related ones" was where I lumped most of that in.

I figure that many wageslaves would have datajacks, and possibly sim modules even. Labor workers or other drivers might have some skills chipped (like for vehicular operation), but ... most peons wouldn't need high skills in things like that, so maybe not. Some likely have work-related things like encephalons or other stuff.

Also, remember that those figures probably also only include people with SINs, with some hand-waving about the black market.

Of course, the fragmented nature of society into corporations as well as nation-states, and the existence of the (apparently) large security and police industry (as we discussed in a different thread) means that a sizeable portion are also smartlinked. But, when you look at the sheer bulk of humanity (for example, the populations living in arcologies and the like), what would most people need/want for their general life?

Toys:
- datajack w/ simlink/imagelink
- probably a commlink (So you can't lose it by accident)
- tracheal filter or something (hey, the sprawl has nasty air)
these are the equivalent of people having a cellular phone, where an implanted one is a status symbol. People like it so they can read the newspaper, listen to music, drive their car, etc.

Flashy Toys:
- cybereyes: probably the equivalent of the IPhone -- tech-geeks drool over wiz blue cybereyes. ( ::shiver:: at memories from reading Renraku Shutdown ...)
- I'm at a loss. What would you put in the category that the non-shadowrunner demographic would be using?

Tools:
- datajack, mnemonic enhancers, encephalons, etc.


The general public will likely not be getting platelet factories, pain resistance, orthoskin, wired reflexes, or skillwires.

Now, the generally dangerous world might mean that in some areas, cyberlimbs are more common ... especially among war veterans. So, some kinds of chrome are still rarer than others. It's probably unwise for a covert-ops type to have obvious chrome, as that makes them stand out and be more memorable. Blandness works to the spy's advantage, as they can more easily tweak their appearance. (Cybereyes are probably Just Fine, as I believe they have non-obvious ones.)

Yeah. Not to mention that some people I know have very bad eyesight, and would love to get laser surgery. When you read about THAT procedure, it's not all that much different from cybereye implantation ... except that you're awake for it. The cost of new electronic eyes is also less than laser surgery is today. This is probably because you can mass-produce them (though, the implantation process is likely more complex ).

Someone else had really interesting points on the costs of 'ware vs the average lifestyle costs (which we presume match wages fairly well). Apologies for not attributing correctly, but I was impressed.

This certainly might be the case for liberal western societies but what about the rest of the world? Much more socially conservative western countries like the Free State of Thuringia in the AGS or the Tir, never mind Amazonia or the majority of the Middle East have a major prejudice against cyberware IIRC. For what little extra benefit you receive from having the cyber version as opposed to external things is that really enough to possibly bar them from, or at least make things much more difficult during, deployments in a large section of the worlds countries?