 Low Skill, High Attribute vs., High Skill, Low Attribute |
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 Sep 27 2007, 09:43 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046  |
for a smaller impact, why not just say that skill caps the number of sucesses that count (like spellcasting for spell sucesses), except when edge is spent? Then it won't matter most of the time, but in extreme cases the Skill-6, Att-1 guy will consistently beat the Skill-1, Att-6 guy. |
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Sep 27 2007, 10:34 PM
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#27
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
It is easy. 'Attribute' and 'Skill' are labels, not descriptions or definitions. The biggest inconsistancy is the baggage you bring that you assign to the labels. Realize what the 'Attribute' and 'Skill' represent by approaching this from the other way around. Assign to the labels in your head what is said on the matter by collective of the rules. All the rules and not just limited to some stupid fluff table that IMO is the worst, most misleading part of the BBB (in other words the distant second for biggest inconsistancy, although maybe inconsistancy isn't the best word for it). Once you do that you'll see that what falls into Attributes in SR4 includes things that you, outside of SR4 might throw into a Skills bin. The same holds true for the labels assigned to the Attributes, such as in your example Strength, and to a lesser extent the names of the Skills. |
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Sep 27 2007, 11:08 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Actually it matters all the time. If my agi 3 hacker didn't take gymnastics, it is no longer possible for me to jump. Capping hits to skill is a bad idea. |
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Sep 27 2007, 11:21 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Good point, but couldn't you just cap to skill with minimum 1 hit? Basically that says that the Agility 5 skill 0 guy wants to jump he can, but if he wants to jump very well he'll either have to learn the skill or use edge. If the guy's in great shape, but never played sports before in his life, he'll have to blow a little edge to have even a remote chance at getting past the aging out of shape footballer and scoring. |
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Sep 27 2007, 11:46 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Capping hits |
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Sep 27 2007, 11:54 PM
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#31
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...personally I am glad it is done with spells. Otherwise mundanes would be completely toast.
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Sep 28 2007, 12:53 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Mechanics who aren't very bright can handle routine situations, but the ones who can actually fix unexpected, complicated problems are the ones with disciplined and/or creative minds, whether or not their academic or social skills are well-developed. Those are, IMHO, the same mechanics who would quickly become competent when cross-training as programmers, paramedics, or other skills that involve methodical technique. In game terms, their Mechanic dice pool including Logic enables them to reach higher thresholds than their equally-well-trained but not-as-bright colleagues. When they cross-train as programmers or paramedics, they each get one rank in the skill, and the one with high Logic gets a much larger dice pool than the other.
If your local grease pit is staffed by idiots, well, they probably have low stat, low or medium skill with specialization, and get a dice pool bonus from "Three-Ring Binder With Foolproof Directions". First Aid is a special case: max effect capped at skill ranks. Is that a good precedent for other skills? Contortionists who are agile will learn infiltration more quickly than those who aren't. Sure, there are contortionists who are just specialists in that one skill... but they weren't designed by min-maxers. Harry Houdini, on another hand, had a lot of natural talent, developed a broad suite of skills, and is a better model for most heroic characters. (Escape Artist, Lockpicking, and Palm, for starters, plus entertainment skills based on his Charisma.) |
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Sep 28 2007, 01:01 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
You ever met a current mechanic? Most of them have college degrees, and most are very intelligent. The mechanics working on top cars (BMW's, Mercedes, etc.) can easily pull down hundred thousand dollar salaries and they have a job that can't be outsourced. Today's current cars are nothing like those of even 15 years before. A new BMW has more processing power in it than your desktop. My dads been a mechanic for his whole life, first on race cars and after he married my mom, regular cars. My parents bought their first home by the age of 30 and my mom has never worked since they got married. When he was 40 we moved into a multimillon dollar home (7.5 wooded acres 18 miles from the Washington Monument). At the age of 50 his current net worth is several million dollars (good investments). So yes, mechanics (at least the ones that are any good), are fairly logical. |
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Sep 28 2007, 01:03 AM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Would you rather have a surgeon of average intelligence but 20 years of training and experience performing surgery on you, or someone with a genius intellect who dropped out of pre-med doing the same operation?
As far as I can tell, the majority of people in this thread would rather have the latter. |
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Sep 28 2007, 01:19 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
Same. And when did I ever even imply anything different?
I was just countering a fallacy that FriendoftheDork posted. And I would prefer a person with both 20 years of skills and a genius intellect. |
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Sep 28 2007, 01:27 AM
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#36
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Neither. Dr Average might have 20 years of training and experience but he might not have put those 20 years into his surgery skill - yeah, he's got great bedside manner and knows the limits of what he needs to do to avoid a lawsuit. Dr Wet-behind-ears might not have dropped out of pre-med, but he might have spent only a small part of his time studying med, but he might have graduated top of his class anyway. I want to see results. I judge by how well he has done or should do, ie his entire "dice pool". If I know who is better, I'd go with whoever is better. But if both are equal, then I'd go with whoever is cheaper or luckier. |
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Sep 28 2007, 01:30 AM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
What part of "surgeon" as opposed to "general practioner" did you not get? And I don't care what you say here; only an idiot would go for the pre-med drop-out over the experienced surgeon. The fact that you won't acknowledge who is better simply to win an argument speaks volumes.
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Sep 28 2007, 01:38 AM
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#38
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You are equating someone with Skill 1 will be a premed drop out. I am saying that if he is really that damn good, he will still have graduated with top honors, even at Skill 1. Then he is a top graduate fresh out of med school with Skill 1. Now my question is this: Would you choose a genius up-and-comer or a stupid old timer? And I don't care what you say here; only an idiot would go for the stupid old timer instead of the genius up-and-comer. The fact that you won't acknowledge who is better simply to win an argument speaks volumes. |
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Sep 28 2007, 01:44 AM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
1) I said nothing about him being Skill 1. In fact, I didn't mention a single rating anywhere. I was asking which you'd rather have in this thing called "the real world." I know it's difficult for some people to grasp, but such a place does exist. Mythical as it may be while living in your parent's basement.
2) Love how you can't actually answer the question without completely changing the parameters around. First the surgeon became a general practioner, now he's a complete dunce. <just pats toturi's head gently before moving on> |
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Sep 28 2007, 02:02 AM
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#40
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
1) And I told you. I would rather have the guy that is more likely to produce better results - he can be the new hot shot surgeon or the old time surgeon, as long as he is better I'd take him. If I think they are equally good, I'd go for whoever is cheaper. This is the "real world". I know it's difficult for some people to grasp, but such a place does exist. Mythical as it may be while living in your own private dungeon. :D 2) I never said that the surgeon was a general practioner, unless you are saying that a surgeon does not need to have a good bedside manner or have knowledge of what is malpractice. Yes, I changed Dr Average to Dr Dumb because you insisted on med school drop out. If you insist on an extreme example(med school drop out), then I have to change the parameters to balance both sides of the equation. Sure, I'd like to have the Experienced-Average-Surgeon over the Genius-Drop-Out, but that will change the moment Genius-Drop-Out graduates to become Genius-Up-And-Comer. You have to compare 2 parties that have the same chance of producing the same sets of results. I think a fresh(but competent) genius will produce the same standard of results as compared with an average experienced guy. If you want to make a unfair comparison and pass it of as a fair one, then I'd call it as I see it. <just pats Doc Funk's head gently before moving on> Nothing like a good argument to get the old blood flowing, eh Doc? Happy birthday. |
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Sep 28 2007, 05:37 AM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
Umm, wow! Never thought that I would see this type of discussion from my little question. I will ask everyone to calm down a bit though. I do know that some of you are needling each other for fun; however, those who are truly new may not understand.
After reading the thread and thinking a bit I have the following conclusions:
Feel free to continue the discussion, just be ready for some houserules should I post a new game. |
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Sep 28 2007, 05:56 AM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
The other problem with capping outcomes in some way to the skill level is that due to the overpriced ness of skills in shadowrun you tend to have high stats and low skills (except in the case of hacking)
In SR, If I take my 80 BPs and go Agility 5 Firearms 2 Gymnastics 1 my character is MUCH more hardcore than Agility 2 Firearms 5 Gymnastics 1 I'm rolling the same 7 dice with guns, but the first guy has 6 dice in gymnastics and the second guy has 3. First guy also has 4 dice on unskilled agi tests, second guy has 1. Same BPs, shitty outcome but dude 2 is way more sucktastic than dude 1. which is one in SR most characters have high stats THEN they work on skills. I'd find some examples of what I meant in 'Welcome to the shadows' if I wasn't really lazy. If you cap hits to skill in some way, you prevent people making character 1. This might be cool as it removes the 'two characters, same BP, one is in all ways better than the other' factor BUT it also makes the characters overall much weaker. If you decide to cap hits to skill, can I suggest significantly reducing the cost of skills to reflect this? May I suggest a cost of 5 for skill groups and 2 for individual skills. |
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Sep 28 2007, 08:18 AM
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#43
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
So you know one example of a well-educated mechanic who struck rich when he was 50. Statistic-wise, that's not enough to say that all (or even most) mechanics will end that way. :D |
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Sep 28 2007, 09:19 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
I know the people he works with as well. And there isn't a single one who I would classify as unintelligent.
I was serious when I said most BMW's have more processing power than your computer. |
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Sep 28 2007, 10:37 AM
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#45
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I was referring more to the point of making millions of $.
I never doubted that. :) |
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Sep 28 2007, 11:09 AM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Let me guess, most OS for those little computers are MS based? Explains all those cars breaking down all the time. :grinbig: As for my definition of "masters" I merely meant that people can be skillful but lack the physical requirements to perform as someone who is in top shape. You can for example have the troll boxer with AGI 2 but Unarmed (Boxing) 6[8] and STR of 12. He could be facing another one with AGI 6 and slightly lower skill. Troll would be far slower but his skill would compensate - and the fact that he hits like a pile of bricks |
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Sep 28 2007, 11:23 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
No, YOUR dad was very logical, you were very lucky to have a dad like that. Besides, race car technicians are not normal mechanics. Most mechanics I've met drive junkers, live in crummy shoebox houses with deadbeat girlfriends, and spend all their money on pot. I would estimate a Logic of no more than 2. :D |
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Sep 28 2007, 11:55 AM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
IMO mundanes w/o magical backup are already completely toast. I just wish they would have figured out a good way to avoid the caps without burning the toast. ;) But that is a tough nut to crack and still keep the feel of SR1-SR3. Force might have needed to mean something a lot different. P.S. If they didn't let all those extra hits increase the DV that would be a really good start. |
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Sep 28 2007, 12:11 PM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Hey, I know those guys! :) Most of them also aren't particularly good mechanics. But I'd go to them to change oil over doing it myself because: 1) my time is worth more than what they'll charge me 2) changing oil is messy 3) changing oil is a lot easier if you have a lift 4) they have taken the time to learn enough about changing oil that they are unlikely to screw it up But that aside 'Logic' in the SR sense isn't really about making solid life choices or a sense of taste in women. This is a good example of the baggage brought to the table and heaped upon the one word labels in the game mechanics (not the greasy kind). |
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Sep 28 2007, 12:14 PM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I think it would be cool to have some pseudo-scientific anti-magic tech for mundanes like in Ghostbusters. Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to play Shadowrun without playing some sort of Awakened character, but obviously lots do. Some anti-spirit weapons and anti-magic armor/implants would be cool and would give the muggles a fighting chance.
EDIT: moved to new thread. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19228 |
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