Low Skill, High Attribute vs.

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun

3 Pages

< 1 2 3

Low Skill, High Attribute vs., High Skill, Low Attribute

Options

tyweise View Member Profile	Sep 28 2007, 01:22 PM Post #51
Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Harrisburg, PA Member No.: 5,848	OT for the thread, but on mundanes vs magics. A thought I've had (but not tested) would be to give non-Awakened characters a natural "Counterspelling" score equal to their Essence. Gives a little something to the non-cybered folks, and even could be made to make sense given there's a relationship between Essence and Magic. It wouldn't stack with a Counterspelling skill, but it would give a group of regular Joes a chance to deal with getting manaballed in the face. Maybe only vs Direct or Mana spells. Or, even just allowing a Full Defense vs Mana spells, using WIL + WIL (or WIL + CHA, or WIL + something). That way it's about on par with firearms, where you get 1 attribute's dice automatically, but can use your action to defend with 2 attributes' dice - compared to the attribute + skill for a full ranged defense.

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 28 2007, 03:08 PM Post #52
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Personally I just tailor the number and strength of magical opponents the PCs cross based on the PC team's make-up. If there isn't any magic on the team, and the PCs don't actively seek it out in the game, then I run on the premise that the players aren't particularly interested in the magical bits of SR. SR is big enough to play that way and still have lots to do.

Apathy View Member Profile	Sep 28 2007, 03:37 PM Post #53
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046	Threadjack! (Warning, Warning, Will Robinson! [waves arms around wildly])

blakkie View Member Profile	Sep 28 2007, 03:43 PM Post #54
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263	Just step off the thread, back away, let us drive it to where we want, and nobody gets hurt. http://www.mchenrycountyblog.com/uploaded_...0him-788789.jpg

Buster View Member Profile	Sep 28 2007, 03:56 PM Post #55
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869	To give Alex his thread back, and to keep things from turning into a traffic jam, I started a new thread for ideas for giving mundanes anti-magic capabilities. If you guys wanted to re-post your ideas there, that would be awesome: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19228

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Sep 28 2007, 04:25 PM Post #56
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	Honestly, if I were too concerned about Shadowrun's system I'd just switch the way I looked at it. Instead of seeing Attributes and Skills as separate entities, look at Skills as being focused applications of the Attribute (sort of like how games like WEG's Star Wars worked) and then readjust the skill chart in comparison. Sort of like Attributes representing your overall competence and aptitude in a large pool of skills. For instance, if you have Agility 3 and Pistols 3, your skill level isn't 3, it's 6, with a score of 6 being considered average/typical. I'd probably also drop the defaulting penalty on most skills. Instead, I'd denote some skills as Professional skills (such as Cybertechnology or Pilot Aerospace Crafts) and the not only lower the dice pool by -2, but limit net hits to one hit only when defaulting from those Professional skills. This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Sep 28 2007, 04:29 PM

FriendoftheDork

Sep 28 2007, 10:30 PM

Post #57

Running Target

Group: Members
Posts: 1,288
Joined: 4-September 06
From: The Scandinavian Federation
Member No.: 9,300

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy)

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 27 2007, 03:58 PM)

Guys I agree that something's up with having skills and attributes count as much, I had the same gripe in (the old) WoD system, T2k etc.

Sure, it makes sense for some examples such as unarmed fighting (to some degree) and running (to a greater degree), but for many active skills it doesen't even make that much sense that stats matter at all.

Build/repair you need a high logic? Yeah, cause mechanics are known to have excelent mental faculties. And all contortionists are experts at s sneaking about or picking locks...

My point is, for many skills training and dedication is ALOT more important than physical or mental characteristics.

I'd go for skill rating caps the dice you get from attributes, except it would probably break the game.

You ever met a current mechanic? Most of them have college degrees, and most are very intelligent.

The mechanics working on top cars (BMW's, Mercedes, etc.) can easily pull down hundred thousand dollar salaries and they have a job that can't be outsourced.

Today's current cars are nothing like those of even 15 years before. A new BMW has more processing power in it than your desktop.

My dads been a mechanic for his whole life, first on race cars and after he married my mom, regular cars.

My parents bought their first home by the age of 30 and my mom has never worked since they got married. When he was 40 we moved into a multimillon dollar home (7.5 wooded acres 18 miles from the Washington Monument). At the age of 50 his current net worth is several million dollars (good investments).

So yes, mechanics (at least the ones that are any good), are fairly logical.

Not a fallacy, but a poor example I admit as I know very little of mechanics. I was referring to the old stereotype low-educated low-tech mechanics were skills and experience is more important than logical thinking.

Come to think of it I play with a metro mechanic that really is very smart and logical (albeit not always too wise).

But the point still stands, skills SHOULD be more important than stats, but there is no good way of making it so without breaking the system (and yeah max hits does that, even if the minimum is 1).

Besides why fix what is not broken?

Cabral

Sep 28 2007, 11:14 PM

Post #58

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 734
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,646

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

I'd probably also drop the defaulting penalty on most skills. Instead, I'd denote some skills as Professional skills (such as Cybertechnology or Pilot Aerospace Crafts) and the not only lower the dice pool by -2, but limit net hits to one hit only when defaulting from those Professional skills.

So you'd nix the normal defaulting penalties and allow defaulting at pernalty on skills you can't default to? :)

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Sep 30 2007, 06:56 PM Post #59
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	My group sticks with one of the optional rules from the core book... the maximum number of successes you can get is equal to Skill x 2. Works pretty well... a large attribute just ups the chances you'll hit your cap, while the skill ups your actual maximum level of success in addition to providing dice.

FrankTrollman

Sep 30 2007, 07:12 PM

Post #60

Prime Runner

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665

QUOTE (blakkie)

It is easy. 'Attribute' and 'Skill' are labels, not descriptions or definitions. The biggest inconsistancy is the baggage you bring that you assign to the labels. Realize what the 'Attribute' and 'Skill' represent by approaching this from the other way around. Assign to the labels in your head what is said on the matter by collective of the rules. All the rules and not just limited to some stupid fluff table that IMO is the worst, most misleading part of the BBB (in other words the distant second for biggest inconsistancy, although maybe inconsistancy isn't the best word for it).

Oddly enough, I agree with blakkie here. The "attributes" and "skills" are just labels.

That being said, it's a travesty that the "skills" cost so much relative to the "attributes". A point of "attribute" is mechanically much better than a point of "skill group", and yet it costs the same. I don't know why. I've talked to the line edittor of the game about it and I still don't know why. I get the impression that "skills" were a much bigger deal at some point during the design process.

From a mechanics standpoint, I cut the price of skills in half across the board. No exceptions. And it works fine.

This ends up increasing the average dice pool of characters within their specialty by about 2 and increases the disparity in dice pools between characters who are moderately focused in an area and characters who don't give a damn by four. And decreases the disparity between a character who is totally focused and a character who is moderately focused by 3.

And more importantly, it makes me feel better because I see more characters with attributes and skills that are about equal.

-Frank

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »

3 Pages

< 1 2 3

Display Mode: Standard · Switch to: Linear+ · Switch to: Outline

Track this topic · Email this topic · Print this topic · Subscribe to this forum

Lo-Fi Version

Time is now: 15th August 2025 - 05:26 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.