 Recoil, RC and confusion [question] |
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 Sep 28 2007, 09:48 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433  |
So, how does it work?
Say: I am firing two bursts with NO recoil compensation. This is how I see it in the Core Book: -2 on the first burst, -3 on the second burst. Someone is telling me it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second burst. Ouch. Is this right? Let's say I am firing two bursts, now, with two points of RC: -0 on the first burst, -3 on the second burst (ie: I already used my 2 RC on the first burst, is this correct or does it 'count' towards the second burst as well?) :| |
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Sep 28 2007, 09:55 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you have it correct.
the next IP, it resets though, for the record. |
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Sep 28 2007, 09:56 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
I think so too, -5 is just too much, even if any decent automatic has RC. ;) But according to these boys, I am wrong: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3 Or am I just reading it wrong for the fifth time? |
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Sep 28 2007, 10:17 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Why would -5 for the second burst be too much when a long burst (just as many shots) is also -5? The only difference is that you get 2 attacks at lower damage instead of 1 at high damage. Which is both a blessing and a curse. |
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Sep 28 2007, 10:19 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 11-September 07 From: Saeder-Krupp Rhine-Ruhr Regional HQ Member No.: 13,215 |
I don't see the discrepancy. The FAQ is saying the same thing you are saying, they're just not giving an example without RC.
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Sep 28 2007, 10:43 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
I apply RC to the second burst, not only the first. This is what I am doing 'wrong'. |
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Sep 28 2007, 10:47 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
Recoil numbers are worded a bit odd in the main SR4 book, but the way it's really calculated is this: take the number of shots fired in the pass after your attack, subtract one, this number is the recoil.
This is why the first shot from a semi-auto gun has no recoil (1-1=0) and the second shot has a recoil of 1 (2-1=0). Try it with short bursts of 3 shots each: the first burst has recoil 2 (3-1), the second has a recoil of 5 (6-1), and so on and so on. I think the rationale (in my completely uneducated opinion) is that combat happens too fast for recoil to reset in between each shot, but in between each initiative pass is more reasonable. You're right though, with a big gun you're firing as much as 10 rounds per initiative pass (10-1=9 recoil), which is a whole mess of recoil. That's why when you see a huge troll with a gyromount and a tank cannon, you run. |
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Sep 28 2007, 10:56 PM
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#8
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
This is correct. |
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Sep 28 2007, 10:59 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
Ok, thanks to both of you. :D
I got it. Players won't be happy but... well, good. ;) |
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Sep 29 2007, 02:02 AM
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#10
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
If it helps, there's a ranged combat cheat sheet on my Shadowrun Resources site. Proper recoil calculations are included.
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Sep 29 2007, 04:38 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty. Maybe he's unaware of the "resets each IP" rule. On another hand, he uses the house rule that STR 6 grants RC 1, STR 9 grants RC 2, and STR 12 grants RC 3.
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Sep 29 2007, 06:03 AM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
FYI it is only the uncompensated recoil that adds up, even with heavy weapons, so if you have a recoil comp of 3 you can fire a CMBT auto shotgun for a burst of 3 with out recoil effecting the shot.
WMS |
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Sep 29 2007, 07:51 AM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The OP made it clear that he was aware of that in his post. |
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Sep 29 2007, 07:59 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
I'm slightly more generous on recoil adjustment for Str, and make it 4-6 +1, 7 - 9, +2 etc.
But then I also ramp up recoil for larger calibres (Heavy MG, Ultra Heavy Pistol etc). |
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Sep 29 2007, 06:50 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
That actually simplifies it quite a bit. ;) To think I was playing 'wrong' all along..! Thanks. |
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Sep 29 2007, 08:55 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
I like that rule. *yoink* |
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Sep 30 2007, 12:36 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,033 |
seconded. |
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Sep 30 2007, 05:18 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,360 |
So, uncompensated, it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second. I accept this.
But what is it with RC 3? Does it "compensate" bullets? Or does it just negate some of the negatives? -- If it compensates bullets, then it would be -0 on the first, and -2 on the second. -- If it just removes negatives, it would be -0 and -4. I think the first one makes more sense. But is it correct by RAW? |
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Sep 30 2007, 05:39 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
I think the first one makes more 'sense', but apparently it doesn't compensate the second burst... :| Now I'm just as much in the dark as before. |
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Sep 30 2007, 05:48 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
0 for the first burst, -2 for the 2nd - that's the only way it makes sense :-)
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Sep 30 2007, 08:40 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 8-June 05 From: Montréal, République du Québec Member No.: 7,433 |
Meaning an AK-97 with Gas Vent II (2 RC) would be... -0 for the first burst, -3 for the second burst. Aye? And a Gas Vent III (3 RC); -0 for the first burst, -2 for the second burst. Yes/No/Toaster? |
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Sep 30 2007, 08:50 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Toaster sounds great. But yes, that's how I handle it.
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Sep 30 2007, 08:53 PM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@Yoan
Gas Vent 3 provides 3 points of recoil compensation First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0. Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0. Only 2 burst fires in one Action Phase. A Long Burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -5 reduced to a -2 from the Gas Vent 3, second long burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -6, reduced to a -3 from the Gas Vent 3. A Full Autoburst 10 rounds a -9 recoil penalty reduced to a -6 from the Gas Vent 3. WMS |
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Sep 30 2007, 09:10 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,532 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 769 |
that's how we've been running it, and I hope it's how it works since my character is built around putting lots of lead in the air. He has a machine pistol with a GV III, and a cyberarm gyromount which lets him fire two long bursts with no recoil. :D
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Sep 30 2007, 09:11 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Um, no! The second burst would be at -2, dues to the remaining one point of recoil compensation. |
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