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> Recoil, RC and confusion [question]
Yoan
post Sep 28 2007, 09:48 PM
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So, how does it work?

Say: I am firing two bursts with NO recoil compensation. This is how I see it in the Core Book:

-2 on the first burst, -3 on the second burst.
Someone is telling me it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second burst. Ouch. Is this right?

Let's say I am firing two bursts, now, with two points of RC:

-0 on the first burst, -3 on the second burst
(ie: I already used my 2 RC on the first burst, is this correct or does it 'count' towards the second burst as well?)

:|
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Jaid
post Sep 28 2007, 09:55 PM
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you have it correct.

the next IP, it resets though, for the record.
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Yoan
post Sep 28 2007, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
you have it correct.

the next IP, it resets though, for the record.

I think so too, -5 is just too much, even if any decent automatic has RC. ;)

But according to these boys, I am wrong:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3

Or am I just reading it wrong for the fifth time?
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FriendoftheDork
post Sep 28 2007, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (Yoan)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 28 2007, 04:55 PM)
you have it correct.

the next IP, it resets though, for the record.

I think so too, -5 is just too much, even if any decent automatic has RC. ;)

But according to these boys, I am wrong:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3

Or am I just reading it wrong for the fifth time?

Why would -5 for the second burst be too much when a long burst (just as many shots) is also -5?

The only difference is that you get 2 attacks at lower damage instead of 1 at high damage. Which is both a blessing and a curse.
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Eurotroll
post Sep 28 2007, 10:19 PM
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I don't see the discrepancy. The FAQ is saying the same thing you are saying, they're just not giving an example without RC.
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Yoan
post Sep 28 2007, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (Eurotroll)
I don't see the discrepancy. The FAQ is saying the same thing you are saying, they're just not giving an example without RC.

I apply RC to the second burst, not only the first. This is what I am doing 'wrong'.
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Gelare
post Sep 28 2007, 10:47 PM
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Recoil numbers are worded a bit odd in the main SR4 book, but the way it's really calculated is this: take the number of shots fired in the pass after your attack, subtract one, this number is the recoil.

This is why the first shot from a semi-auto gun has no recoil (1-1=0) and the second shot has a recoil of 1 (2-1=0).

Try it with short bursts of 3 shots each: the first burst has recoil 2 (3-1), the second has a recoil of 5 (6-1), and so on and so on.

I think the rationale (in my completely uneducated opinion) is that combat happens too fast for recoil to reset in between each shot, but in between each initiative pass is more reasonable.

You're right though, with a big gun you're firing as much as 10 rounds per initiative pass (10-1=9 recoil), which is a whole mess of recoil. That's why when you see a huge troll with a gyromount and a tank cannon, you run.
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Fortune
post Sep 28 2007, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Yoan)
Someone is telling me it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second burst.

This is correct.
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Yoan
post Sep 28 2007, 10:59 PM
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Ok, thanks to both of you. :D
I got it. Players won't be happy but... well, good. ;)
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Aaron
post Sep 29 2007, 02:02 AM
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If it helps, there's a ranged combat cheat sheet on my Shadowrun Resources site. Proper recoil calculations are included.
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Riley37
post Sep 29 2007, 04:38 AM
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My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty. Maybe he's unaware of the "resets each IP" rule. On another hand, he uses the house rule that STR 6 grants RC 1, STR 9 grants RC 2, and STR 12 grants RC 3.
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WearzManySkins
post Sep 29 2007, 06:03 AM
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FYI it is only the uncompensated recoil that adds up, even with heavy weapons, so if you have a recoil comp of 3 you can fire a CMBT auto shotgun for a burst of 3 with out recoil effecting the shot.

WMS
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Fortune
post Sep 29 2007, 07:51 AM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
FYI it is only the uncompensated recoil that adds up

The OP made it clear that he was aware of that in his post.
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Cweord
post Sep 29 2007, 07:59 AM
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I'm slightly more generous on recoil adjustment for Str, and make it 4-6 +1, 7 - 9, +2 etc.

But then I also ramp up recoil for larger calibres (Heavy MG, Ultra Heavy Pistol etc).
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Yoan
post Sep 29 2007, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
If it helps, there's a ranged combat cheat sheet on my Shadowrun Resources site. Proper recoil calculations are included.

That actually simplifies it quite a bit. ;) To think I was playing 'wrong' all along..! Thanks.
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Cabral
post Sep 29 2007, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (Riley37)
My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty.

I like that rule. *yoink*
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venenum
post Sep 30 2007, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (Cabral)
QUOTE (Riley37 @ Sep 28 2007, 11:38 PM)
My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty.

I like that rule. *yoink*

seconded.
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Kerris
post Sep 30 2007, 05:18 PM
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So, uncompensated, it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second. I accept this.

But what is it with RC 3? Does it "compensate" bullets? Or does it just negate some of the negatives?

-- If it compensates bullets, then it would be -0 on the first, and -2 on the second.

-- If it just removes negatives, it would be -0 and -4.

I think the first one makes more sense. But is it correct by RAW?
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Yoan
post Sep 30 2007, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (Kerris)
So, uncompensated, it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second. I accept this.

But what is it with RC 3? Does it "compensate" bullets? Or does it just negate some of the negatives?

-- If it compensates bullets, then it would be -0 on the first, and -2 on the second.

-- If it just removes negatives, it would be -0 and -4.

I think the first one makes more sense. But is it correct by RAW?

I think the first one makes more 'sense', but apparently it doesn't compensate the second burst... :| Now I'm just as much in the dark as before.
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Irian
post Sep 30 2007, 05:48 PM
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0 for the first burst, -2 for the 2nd - that's the only way it makes sense :-)
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Yoan
post Sep 30 2007, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Irian @ Sep 30 2007, 12:48 PM)
0 for the first burst, -2 for the 2nd - that's the only way it makes sense :-)

Meaning an AK-97 with Gas Vent II (2 RC) would be...

-0 for the first burst, -3 for the second burst. Aye?

And a Gas Vent III (3 RC);

-0 for the first burst, -2 for the second burst. Yes/No/Toaster?
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Irian
post Sep 30 2007, 08:50 PM
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Toaster sounds great. But yes, that's how I handle it.

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WearzManySkins
post Sep 30 2007, 08:53 PM
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@Yoan
Gas Vent 3 provides 3 points of recoil compensation

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

Only 2 burst fires in one Action Phase.

A Long Burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -5 reduced to a -2 from the Gas Vent 3, second long burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -6, reduced to a -3 from the Gas Vent 3.

A Full Autoburst 10 rounds a -9 recoil penalty reduced to a -6 from the Gas Vent 3.

WMS
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imperialus
post Sep 30 2007, 09:10 PM
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that's how we've been running it, and I hope it's how it works since my character is built around putting lots of lead in the air. He has a machine pistol with a GV III, and a cyberarm gyromount which lets him fire two long bursts with no recoil. :D
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Fortune
post Sep 30 2007, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Oct 1 2007, 06:53 AM)
First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

Um, no! The second burst would be at -2, dues to the remaining one point of recoil compensation.
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