Dumpshock Forums > Recoil, RC and confusion [question]

Yoan

Sep 28 2007, 09:48 PM

So, how does it work?

Say: I am firing two bursts with NO recoil compensation. This is how I see it in the Core Book:

-2 on the first burst, -3 on the second burst.
Someone is telling me it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second burst. Ouch. Is this right?

Let's say I am firing two bursts, now, with two points of RC:

-0 on the first burst, -3 on the second burst
(ie: I already used my 2 RC on the first burst, is this correct or does it 'count' towards the second burst as well?)

Jaid

Sep 28 2007, 09:55 PM

you have it correct.

the next IP, it resets though, for the record.

Yoan

Sep 28 2007, 09:56 PM

QUOTE (Jaid)

you have it correct.

the next IP, it resets though, for the record.

I think so too, -5 is just too much, even if any decent automatic has RC.

But according to these boys, I am wrong:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3

Or am I just reading it wrong for the fifth time?

FriendoftheDork

Sep 28 2007, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Yoan)

QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 28 2007, 04:55 PM)

you have it correct.

the next IP, it resets though, for the record.

I think so too, -5 is just too much, even if any decent automatic has RC.

But according to these boys, I am wrong:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3

Or am I just reading it wrong for the fifth time?

Why would -5 for the second burst be too much when a long burst (just as many shots) is also -5?

The only difference is that you get 2 attacks at lower damage instead of 1 at high damage. Which is both a blessing and a curse.

Eurotroll

Sep 28 2007, 10:19 PM

I don't see the discrepancy. The FAQ is saying the same thing you are saying, they're just not giving an example without RC.

Yoan

Sep 28 2007, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Eurotroll)

I don't see the discrepancy. The FAQ is saying the same thing you are saying, they're just not giving an example without RC.

I apply RC to the second burst, not only the first. This is what I am doing 'wrong'.

Gelare

Sep 28 2007, 10:47 PM

Recoil numbers are worded a bit odd in the main SR4 book, but the way it's really calculated is this: take the number of shots fired in the pass after your attack, subtract one, this number is the recoil.

This is why the first shot from a semi-auto gun has no recoil (1-1=0) and the second shot has a recoil of 1 (2-1=0).

Try it with short bursts of 3 shots each: the first burst has recoil 2 (3-1), the second has a recoil of 5 (6-1), and so on and so on.

I think the rationale (in my completely uneducated opinion) is that combat happens too fast for recoil to reset in between each shot, but in between each initiative pass is more reasonable.

You're right though, with a big gun you're firing as much as 10 rounds per initiative pass (10-1=9 recoil), which is a whole mess of recoil. That's why when you see a huge troll with a gyromount and a tank cannon, you run.

Fortune

Sep 28 2007, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Yoan)

Someone is telling me it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second burst.

This is correct.

Yoan

Sep 28 2007, 10:59 PM

Ok, thanks to both of you.

I got it. Players won't be happy but... well, good.

Aaron

Sep 29 2007, 02:02 AM

If it helps, there's a ranged combat cheat sheet on my Shadowrun Resources site. Proper recoil calculations are included.

Riley37

Sep 29 2007, 04:38 AM

My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty. Maybe he's unaware of the "resets each IP" rule. On another hand, he uses the house rule that STR 6 grants RC 1, STR 9 grants RC 2, and STR 12 grants RC 3.

WearzManySkins

Sep 29 2007, 06:03 AM

FYI it is only the uncompensated recoil that adds up, even with heavy weapons, so if you have a recoil comp of 3 you can fire a CMBT auto shotgun for a burst of 3 with out recoil effecting the shot.

WMS

Fortune

Sep 29 2007, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (WearzManySkins)

FYI it is only the uncompensated recoil that adds up

The OP made it clear that he was aware of that in his post.

Cweord

Sep 29 2007, 07:59 AM

I'm slightly more generous on recoil adjustment for Str, and make it 4-6 +1, 7 - 9, +2 etc.

But then I also ramp up recoil for larger calibres (Heavy MG, Ultra Heavy Pistol etc).

Yoan

Sep 29 2007, 06:50 PM

QUOTE (Aaron)

If it helps, there's a ranged combat cheat sheet on my Shadowrun Resources site. Proper recoil calculations are included.

That actually simplifies it quite a bit.

To think I was playing 'wrong' all along..! Thanks.

Cabral

Sep 29 2007, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (Riley37)

My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty.

I like that rule. *yoink*

venenum

Sep 30 2007, 12:36 AM

QUOTE (Cabral)

QUOTE (Riley37 @ Sep 28 2007, 11:38 PM)

My GM has a house rule that recoil only resets when you spend an action doing something other than fire, eg Take Aim. If you spend every action of every IP of every turn firing short bursts, pretty soon you would have a huge recoil penalty.

I like that rule. *yoink*

seconded.

Kerris

Sep 30 2007, 05:18 PM

So, uncompensated, it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second. I accept this.

But what is it with RC 3? Does it "compensate" bullets? Or does it just negate some of the negatives?

-- If it compensates bullets, then it would be -0 on the first, and -2 on the second.

-- If it just removes negatives, it would be -0 and -4.

I think the first one makes more sense. But is it correct by RAW?

Yoan

Sep 30 2007, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (Kerris)

So, uncompensated, it's -2 on the first burst, and -5 on the second. I accept this.

But what is it with RC 3? Does it "compensate" bullets? Or does it just negate some of the negatives?

-- If it compensates bullets, then it would be -0 on the first, and -2 on the second.

-- If it just removes negatives, it would be -0 and -4.

I think the first one makes more sense. But is it correct by RAW?

I think the first one makes more 'sense', but apparently it doesn't compensate the second burst...

Now I'm just as much in the dark as before.

Irian

Sep 30 2007, 05:48 PM

0 for the first burst, -2 for the 2nd - that's the only way it makes sense

Yoan

Sep 30 2007, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (Irian @ Sep 30 2007, 12:48 PM)

0 for the first burst, -2 for the 2nd - that's the only way it makes sense

Meaning an AK-97 with Gas Vent II (2 RC) would be...

-0 for the first burst, -3 for the second burst. Aye?

And a Gas Vent III (3 RC);

-0 for the first burst, -2 for the second burst. Yes/No/Toaster?

Irian

Sep 30 2007, 08:50 PM

Toaster sounds great. But yes, that's how I handle it.

WearzManySkins

Sep 30 2007, 08:53 PM

@Yoan
Gas Vent 3 provides 3 points of recoil compensation

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

Only 2 burst fires in one Action Phase.

A Long Burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -5 reduced to a -2 from the Gas Vent 3, second long burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -6, reduced to a -3 from the Gas Vent 3.

A Full Autoburst 10 rounds a -9 recoil penalty reduced to a -6 from the Gas Vent 3.

WMS

imperialus

Sep 30 2007, 09:10 PM

that's how we've been running it, and I hope it's how it works since my character is built around putting lots of lead in the air. He has a machine pistol with a GV III, and a cyberarm gyromount which lets him fire two long bursts with no recoil.

Fortune

Sep 30 2007, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Oct 1 2007, 06:53 AM)

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

Um, no! The second burst would be at -2, dues to the remaining one point of recoil compensation.

Glyph

Sep 30 2007, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (WearzManySkins)

@Yoan
Gas Vent 3 provides 3 points of recoil compensation

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

Only 2 burst fires in one Action Phase.

A Long Burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -5 reduced to a -2 from the Gas Vent 3, second long burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -6, reduced to a -3 from the Gas Vent 3.

A Full Autoburst 10 rounds a -9 recoil penalty reduced to a -6 from the Gas Vent 3.

WMS

Wrong. They had it right before. Recoil compensation only applies once over an entire action phase.

The correct version:

Gas Vent 3 provides 3 points of recoil compensation

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst (during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but the 1 remaining point of recoil compensation reduces that to -2.

Only 2 burst fires in one Action Phase.

A Long Burst 6 rounds, has a recoil penalty of -5 reduced to a -2 from the Gas Vent 3, short burst 3 rounds (you can only fire one long burst per action phase), has a recoil penalty of -3, plus a -2 carryover from the first burst for -5.

A Full Autoburst 10 rounds a -9 recoil penalty reduced to a -6 from the Gas Vent 3.

The FAQ is actually pretty clear about how it works. You ignore the first bullet, every bullet after that adds -1 no matter how the bursts are split up, and recoil compensation gets used up over the course of the action phase.

Irian

Sep 30 2007, 09:12 PM

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 30 2007, 03:53 PM)

Gas Vent 3 provides 3 points of recoil compensation

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

That's not quite correct (imho). Second burst: 6 bullets total, makes 5 recoil, -3 reduces it to 2.

-5 for the 2nd burst is correct - see P.142 "Burst Fire Mode":

QUOTE

The first burst fired in an Action Phase inflicts a –2 recoil modifier, the second inflicts an additional –3 recoil

I don't think that you can apply recoil compensation twice.

Glyph

Sep 30 2007, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (imperialus)

that's how we've been running it, and I hope it's how it works since my character is built around putting lots of lead in the air. He has a machine pistol with a GV III, and a cyberarm gyromount which lets him fire two long bursts with no recoil.

Nope. Recoil compensation get used up over the course of the action phase, and also, you can only fire one long burst per action phase (top of pg. 144 - easy to miss). You could fire two short bursts without any recoil, though.

Irian

Sep 30 2007, 09:21 PM

The example on page 143 is quite clear (don't forget that the errate corrected it, if you've got an older printing): The 2nd burst there DOES NOT get "again" compensated.

FriendoftheDork

Sep 30 2007, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (imperialus @ Sep 30 2007, 10:10 PM)

that's how we've been running it, and I hope it's how it works since my character is built around putting lots of lead in the air. He has a machine pistol with a GV III, and a cyberarm gyromount which lets him fire two long bursts with no recoil.

Nice, although you can by RAW only fire one long burst per action phase, so I take it you mean one long and one short with no recoil?

Edit: I should have read page 2...

Fortune

Sep 30 2007, 09:30 PM

The example ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg 143)

Slinger has an Uzi in hand, ready to fire a burst against the hit man that just took out his friend. Slinger is rolling his Automatics 4 + Agility 5 (9 dice) against the target’s Reaction 5. Though his recoil compensation of 2 accounts for the burst’s–2 recoil, he’s also facing some other modifi ers (–3 total, for a dice pool of 6). Slinger goes for a narrow burst, increasing the Uzi’s DV by +2. He rolls 3 hits, the target rolls 2, so he hits. His net hit of 1 increases the DV of the Uzi fr om 5P to 6P, which unfortunately doesn’t exceed the assassin’s armor rating of 6. That means the target has to resist 8S DV (base DV 5 + 1 net hit + 2 narrow burst, Physical converted to Stun by the armor).
With his next Simple Action, Slinger’s facing a lot of recoil, so he goes for a wide burst. The extra –3 recoil reduces his dice pool to 3, so he only gets 1 hit. The target’s dice pool is reduced by 2 from the wide burst though, so he rolls only 3 dice, also getting 1 hit. That’s a tie, so Slinger just misses hitting the guy with the second burst.

If Stinger's Recoil Compensation was 3 instead of 2 in the above example, then his second burst would have been compensated by the 1 point remaining unused from his first burst.

If instead Stinger had Recoil Compensation of 5, he would have no penalties from recoil in the above example.

WearzManySkins

Sep 30 2007, 09:34 PM

I am looking at Errata 1.5 its has no changes to Recoil on page 143, except for the example of the Wide Burst.

p. 143 Wide Burst example [2]
In the second paragraph, the extra –3 recoil reduces his
dice pool to *3*

Errata 1.3 and 1.1 have no mention of such.

Could it have been in a FAQ?

WMS

Irian

Sep 30 2007, 09:36 PM

It's probably easier to understand if you do not "reduce" recoil compensation, but simply re-calculate recoil for every burst:

(Recoil Comp. 2)

First Burst: -2 -> totaly absorbed by compensation
2nd Burst: -5 (-2 from the first, -3 from the 2nd) -> 2 points get absobed by compensation -> -3

Edit: WMS: That's what I meant. I just wanted to prevent that anyone got confused by "4" instead of "3"

WearzManySkins

Sep 30 2007, 09:43 PM

Ok found the web page with the FAQ which answers the recoil question.

WMS

Glyph

Sep 30 2007, 09:54 PM

QUOTE (WearzManySkins)

I am looking at Errata 1.5 its has no changes to Recoil on page 143, except for the example of the Wide Burst.

p. 143 Wide Burst example [2]
In the second paragraph, the extra –3 recoil reduces his
dice pool to *3*

Errata 1.3 and 1.1 have no mention of such.

Could it have been in a FAQ?

WMS

Right. He started out with a dice pool of 9, has other modifiers reducing it to 6, and the penalty from his second burst reduces it by 3 more, to a dice pool of 3. Note that his 2 points of recoil compensation, which were already used on the first burst, do not reduce the penalty of the second burst. So it agrees with the FAQ, which really only clarifies the rules.

I think the book gives a poor example, though. Giving him "other penalties" is realistic, but an example should focus solely on the rules mechanic that it is illustrating, to be as clear as possible.

WearzManySkins

Sep 30 2007, 10:05 PM

@Glyph
The FAQ gives better examples than the one on the book.

WMS

DTFarstar

Sep 30 2007, 10:34 PM

Well, you can't fire two long bursts in one initiative pass, but the way I run it and the way it has been explained to me before is for every bullet after the first fired in that same initiative pass, you get a -1 DP mod. REcoil comp negate X amount of that for that initiative pass. So, we will use the Ares Alpha for this example. During initiative pass 1, Bob the Bullet wants to fire his Ares Alpha and kill some ganger. He uses his first simple action to fire a long burst at the ganger 6 bullets -5 modifier, dropped to -3 with RC, within the same .75 second period(Initiative Pass), Bob the Bullet fires again. Short burst this time, 3 more bullets. 6+3 -1= 8. 2 points of recoil comp means -6 on the short burst.

That is how it was explained to me, and if you have fired a semi-auto weapon, or especially a burst firing weapon, then you will know that it makes sense for such a small time period. At least, it does to me.

Chris

Jaid

Sep 30 2007, 11:40 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Oct 1 2007, 06:53 AM)

First burst 3 rounds, 2 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce the recoil penalty to 0.

Second burst(during same Action Phase as first burst) 3 rounds, 3 points of recoil, but 3 points of recoil compensation reduce that to 0.

Um, no! The second burst would be at -2, dues to the remaining one point of recoil compensation.

i'm with fortune on this one. you take the total number of shots fired in the IP at the end of the shot/burst/whatever, subtract 1 (the first bullet doesn't suffer recoil from itself) and then you subtract the RC modifier from that. at the end of the IP, your recoil resets itself.