 Few Rules Clarification, 2hand fighting, Hardened armor, Focii |
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  Nov 21 2003, 09:32 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837  |
Regardless of my massive qualms with the computer and matrix systems...which I will leave fully aside...
I have a few questions. Hardened Armor How EXACTLY does this work? The book makes it seem like with a +4 weapon focii (7m base) dealing 13D(from staging up) I can't hurt hardened with 7 impact... Is this accurate? What does it take to deal damage to hardened armor, do you HAVE to have a base damage greater than the Hardened armor level? 2Handed Weapon fighting Again the way I read the book, I took a 6pt 2handed fighting edge, meaning I don't have to have an offhand weapon skill to go 2 handed. But, it only increases the die I roll to hit by half. Does this mean I don't get 1.5 power, only 1.5 die(like I have a 6 skill in edged weps, meaning I roll 9 die with 2 weps, they are both 7m, meaning that's it?) Weapon Focii The level of a focii does what exactly? the book is kinda vague there. It seems that for like, a level 3 focii, you get 3 more dice to roll when using that weapon, after you bond with it, Again, no power increase? Degradation All armor degrades? Always when an M, S, or D is taken, it degrades? Only when the weapon power is double? Natural weapon power, or including staged up? I think that does it for questions for now. I have high hopes someone here can clear up my confusion with these rules. |
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Nov 21 2003, 10:42 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
If the TN to be resisted is less than or equal to the hardened armor rating, there is no effect. In melee, the rules indicate that the power level is increased with excessive successes, so you just need to roll really well.
The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons. The dice bonus requires either ambidexterity or an off-hand weapon skill to use. I suspect that the 6 point edge you mention is ambidexterity, meaning 9 dice at 7M (based on skill alone)
You get extra dice equal to the force of the weapon focus, it pierces immunity to normal weapons, and can bypass regeneration.
An optional rule, in the CC, don't remember the page number.
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Nov 21 2003, 11:22 PM
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#3
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Armor degrading is an optional rule. (Cannon Companion p. 96) The GM decides whether to use this rule as is, use it in a modified form, or whether to ignore it. It affects regular Ballistic and Impact Armor, Hardened Armor, and Vehicle Armor, but not critter armor. Yes, it only happens when the character takes physical damage of M or greater. No, the weapon power doesn't have to be double the rating of the armor. If the weapon power is equal to the armor rating the armor loses 1 point. If the weapon power is 2x the armor rating then the armor loses 2 points. For 3x, a 3 point loss. The rule says to compare with the "Power of the Attack", so yes, I would use the staged-up power, but that's just my interpretation. The rule doesn't indicate that a Ballistic attack will degrade both Impact and Ballistic ratings, but that is the way we play it in my campaign. When the character has layered armor, we choose to apply the degradation only to the outermost layer that is still intact. The rule doesn't indicate whether, on subsequent attacks, the comparison of powers should use the original rating of the armor or the reduced rating of the armor. It's a GM call. In our game we use the original rating. Here is a link to more information about Armor Degradation from a couple weeks ago. |
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Nov 21 2003, 11:22 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
So I am to presume that my ninja(imagine Taki from Soul Calibur) using 2 long style daggers(possibly wagasishis) does not get a power bonus? Does this mean the thought path for explaination is that the extra .5 die(from skill) means i never hit with both at the same time or what? It seems never 2 7Ms nor 9M or 10M to account for 2 weapons, is this really right? Only 9 die for 7M? |
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Nov 21 2003, 11:24 PM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate; I'll check, but I think it's explicitly stated that the weapon has to have power greater than the armor rating before any modifications (unless it's a firearm with AP/AV rounds). ~J |
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Nov 21 2003, 11:26 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, that's entirely accurate. Your second weapon doesn't actually matter; you can be a Troll using a halberd in one hand and a pocket knife in the other and you still get half your pocket knife dice added. The point is that the expanded versatility of attack options increases the likelihood of your getting something past the opponent's defenses, or something like that. ~J |
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Nov 21 2003, 11:27 PM
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#7
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Combat in shadowrun is abstract, you never hit twice, because one "attack" is hitting more than once in the first place. This is explained if you read the description of the way melee combat works. Multiple weapons just changes the final power of the attack and/or the number of dice you roll.
Which by the way is pretty flipping stupid, because if you have a knife in one hand, the other hand is still a flipping weapon you can use. it doens't magically turn into a new weapon when you hold a second knife, all it does is turn into a different type of waepon, from fist to knife. |
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Nov 21 2003, 11:29 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
You inflict more damage by rolling more dice. This increases the chance of the weapon inflicting a greater damage level through staging up. Whether this means you deflected their attack and nailed them with your other blade, hit them three or four times with your daggers, or just stabbed them in the face, is up to your GM. The combat in Shadowrun is abstract. You roll X dice vs. their Y dice doing Z damage. The specifics are up to you.
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Nov 21 2003, 11:34 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Cannon Companion, page 51:
"If the base Power of an attack (unmodified by burst or full-auto fire) does not exceed the rating of the armor, the attack is deflected and does no damage." So I guess I was wrong about things like EX-EX not helping against armor, but that still leaves your 7M weapon focus high and dry. ~J |
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Nov 22 2003, 12:03 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
Well but it says unmodified as in burst or full auto... staging up isn't in the same class, not really. Staging up means you found a kink in the armor, or hit extra freaking hard. Not hit him 3 times(which is what burst really is) It would make sense that even a butter knife could find a hole in the guy's crotch or armpit or somewhere, even on the best armor...
Even the worst sword can slice through a masamune in the right hands... |
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Nov 22 2003, 12:09 AM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not actually true. If the metal just isn't up to the task, no amount of skill is going to make it slice.
Regardless, though, the entire point of hardened armor is that it's so well-protected that you really aren't going to find much to do anything to. There are called shot rules for melee on CC page 85-86, and if your GM is nice he or she will bump down the armor value in the location targeted by a few points, thus making the difference. ~J Edit: and because of the abstract nature of melee combat, hitting with 44 successes could very well mean you just got into a rhythm and managed to hit him 50 times in 3 seconds rather than any given hit being particularly skillful. |
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Nov 22 2003, 01:49 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
That may be very possible...I suppose a butter knife might not...except for simple physics, a penny dropped off the empire state building embeds itself 1 ft deep in concrete. IE with enough force, it should work no matter the grade of metal(mind you the penny is unrecognizable after retrival)
But take it from this angle, could a level 4 weapon focii base dam 7 m cut through it dealing 13M? Even in DND a merely +1 weapon reduces damage reduction by like 10/-... |
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Nov 22 2003, 01:53 AM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Nope, because it still deals 7M staged up to 13D.
~J |
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Nov 22 2003, 01:56 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
But it's a weapon focii...aka MAGIC...I really don't see the logic in this...if it was really a butter knife that is one thing, but a level 4 weapon focii not dealing even staged up to hurt it...that seems absurd.
I don't mean to harp, but please can somone explain to me the logic behind this? |
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Nov 22 2003, 02:03 AM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
I've been considering house ruling that if you win the melee contest only because of successes on the bonus dice you get from the secondary weapon, you do damage as per the secondary weapon. Haven't actually tried that out in a game to see how well it really works, though. |
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Nov 22 2003, 02:08 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
[QUOTE] I took a solemn vow to correct anyone who ever says the above. So here goes. No, a penny will not imbed itself into concrete, it will not kill anyone, in fact, you can probably throw it harder than it'd fall. There's a magical thing called terminal velocity, which in short makes the penny go faster, faster, faster...and that's it! Coins have a high surface area to mass ratio, making their terminal velocity pretty low. If you want to find out the terminal velocity of an object, tie a string/rope to it, hang it out your car's window, and drive. When the string is between seven and eight o' clock (225 deg), check your speed. That's the velocity. This doesn't take into account tumbling, unless your a boy scout, so your figures may vary. A lot. Now, back to your normally scheduled thread. |
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Nov 22 2003, 02:51 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Heh. No. See: "terminal velocity" and "aerodynamic drag." The penny will bounce a few feet up after hitting the ground or maybe break skin if it hit someone. |
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Nov 22 2003, 03:02 AM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's because weapon foci aren't magic weapons in the d20/D&D style (I make the distinction because there were decent versions of D&D before 3rd ed). They aid a user in using their weapon rather than being mystically sharp and able to cleave blocks of stone with a single blow by themselves. They add to your skill, so if something can't be done with skill alone, it's still impossible with the focus.
~J |
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Nov 22 2003, 04:10 AM
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#19
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Terminal velocity of a penny is 20-45 MPH depending on how it falls, and it has very little mass, that isnt gonna kill anyone.
http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~macklem/paper.html Dont believe everything you hear, most of it is bullshit. |
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Nov 22 2003, 04:29 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Like what you just posted
;) |
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Nov 22 2003, 04:55 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
When I was a kid I threw two pennies off the top of the Empire State Building and one off of the World Trade Center. There were no nets or special fences or anything to prevent you from doing so. I wondered then why there weren't fields of penny-craters circling the ground floors of the buildings (heck, I couldn't even find my craters), then I got a little older and figured out why.
Now I think the myth might go both ways. Recently a professor told me that the terminal velocity of a mouse is slow enough for it to survive a fall from any height. A rat, he said, is just large enough to be injured or killed. I looked for information about it but was unable to find anything useful. Does anyone know about mouse-tossing? |
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Nov 22 2003, 04:56 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Go try it.
And tell TerraFirst! before you do! |
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Nov 22 2003, 05:10 AM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The mouse/rat may or may not be true, but there's a reason why there is (I believe) a Chinese saying that "a person may fall from a tree and die, but an ant can fall from the moon and walk away".
Of course, that may be another "Confucious say". Regardless, it's true (well, the ant has to start in-atmosphere, but other than that). ~J |
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Nov 22 2003, 07:49 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
pennies and mice aside...
How about the simple analogy of diamond, hardest substance on earth(naturally occuring, anyways) and the fact i can use an aluminum hammer and shatter it. (Diamond resists cutting, not shatter, ask your local jeweler) I see the rules, I don't get the rules. Computers I get, computers in SR I really don't. And fyi my weapon focii are both +4(well together, it is a pair of blades, meant to be used together) So you are saying then that no amount of skill with a blade could overcome an item with the same hardness(damage 7 versus hardened 7 impact) under any cicurmstance? I just don't see how that can be true... Perhaps I am just lost in the world between realism and portraying it inaccurately in RPGs... |
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Nov 22 2003, 07:58 AM
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#25
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Okay, a rating-4 weapon focus isn't the same as a +4 weapon. You gain 4 additional dice to use in your combat test, on both attack and defense. Which is a huge advantage. In Shadowrun, melee combat is not "I hit you then wait for you to hit me". It's a series of feints, counters, dodges, kicks, punches, and strikes. It's abstract, and not what a D&D player would be thinking of. Every melee test in Shadowrun is an opposed test. It's your skill vs. the other guy, with the winner dealing damage. Thus, the number of dice you roll makes a huge difference. Assuming equal TN's, if you have even one more die than your opponent, you'll be likely to deal damage each and every time, regardless of who's action it is. (So yes, you *can* be hurt on your action. If you instigate a melee attack, and lose the test, you'll be taking damage.) A rating 4 weapon focus does not add to the damage, it adds to your skill. Which means, it protects you and enables you to roll more dice, potentially staging up the damage. However, it still does the same base damage as any other weapon of the same type. If a normal sword does 7M, if you enchant it into a weapon focus, it'll still do 7M. You just have a better chance of doing a more damaging attack with it. Now, the rule that people here are referring to is the one that says every 2 successes that stage the weapon damage past Deadly turns into a +1 to power. So, in order for that 7M weapon to deal a 13D, you first need four net successes to stage it to deadly, then ten additional successes to raise the power that much. That's a grand total of fourteen net successes. I don't even want to think about how many dice you'd need to roll, and how badly the other guy had to have rolled. But to go back to your question-- hardened armor is only affected by the base power of the weapon. Think of it this way-- let's say you've got a three-inch thich sheet of steel. No matter how often you hit it with a knife, or how accurately, you won't be able to punch a hole in it. A weapon focus doesn't make you hit any harder, only more accurately. |
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