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Dende
Regardless of my massive qualms with the computer and matrix systems...which I will leave fully aside...
I have a few questions.

Hardened Armor
How EXACTLY does this work? The book makes it seem like with a +4 weapon focii (7m base) dealing 13D(from staging up) I can't hurt hardened with 7 impact... Is this accurate? What does it take to deal damage to hardened armor, do you HAVE to have a base damage greater than the Hardened armor level?


2Handed Weapon fighting
Again the way I read the book, I took a 6pt 2handed fighting edge, meaning I don't have to have an offhand weapon skill to go 2 handed. But, it only increases the die I roll to hit by half. Does this mean I don't get 1.5 power, only 1.5 die(like I have a 6 skill in edged weps, meaning I roll 9 die with 2 weps, they are both 7m, meaning that's it?)


Weapon Focii
The level of a focii does what exactly? the book is kinda vague there. It seems that for like, a level 3 focii, you get 3 more dice to roll when using that weapon, after you bond with it, Again, no power increase?


Degradation
All armor degrades? Always when an M, S, or D is taken, it degrades? Only when the weapon power is double? Natural weapon power, or including staged up?

I think that does it for questions for now. I have high hopes someone here can clear up my confusion with these rules.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Dende)
Regardless of my massive qualms with the computer and matrix systems...which I will leave fully aside... 
I have a few questions. 
 
Hardened Armor 
    How EXACTLY does this work? The book makes it seem like with a +4 weapon focii (7m base) dealing 13D(from staging up) I can't hurt hardened with 7 impact... Is this accurate? What does it take to deal damage to hardened armor, do you HAVE to have a base damage greater than the Hardened armor level?
If the TN to be resisted is less than or equal to the hardened armor rating, there is no effect. In melee, the rules indicate that the power level is increased with excessive successes, so you just need to roll really well.
QUOTE
2Handed Weapon fighting 
    Again the way I read the book, I took a 6pt 2handed fighting edge, meaning I don't have to have an offhand weapon skill to go 2 handed. But, it only increases the die I roll to hit by half. Does this mean I don't get 1.5 power, only 1.5 die(like I have a 6 skill in edged weps, meaning I roll 9 die with 2 weps, they are both 7m, meaning that's it?)
The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons. The dice bonus requires either ambidexterity or an off-hand weapon skill to use. I suspect that the 6 point edge you mention is ambidexterity, meaning 9 dice at 7M (based on skill alone)
QUOTE
Weapon Focii 
    The level of a focii does what exactly? the book is kinda vague there. It seems that for like, a level 3 focii, you get 3 more dice to roll when using that weapon, after you bond with it, Again, no power increase?
You get extra dice equal to the force of the weapon focus, it pierces immunity to normal weapons, and can bypass regeneration.
QUOTE
Degradation
An optional rule, in the CC, don't remember the page number.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Dende)
Degradation
All armor degrades? Always when an M, S, or D is taken, it degrades? Only when the weapon power is double? Natural weapon power, or including staged up?

Armor degrading is an optional rule. (Cannon Companion p. 96) The GM decides whether to use this rule as is, use it in a modified form, or whether to ignore it.

It affects regular Ballistic and Impact Armor, Hardened Armor, and Vehicle Armor, but not critter armor.

Yes, it only happens when the character takes physical damage of M or greater.

No, the weapon power doesn't have to be double the rating of the armor. If the weapon power is equal to the armor rating the armor loses 1 point. If the weapon power is 2x the armor rating then the armor loses 2 points. For 3x, a 3 point loss.

The rule says to compare with the "Power of the Attack", so yes, I would use the staged-up power, but that's just my interpretation.

The rule doesn't indicate that a Ballistic attack will degrade both Impact and Ballistic ratings, but that is the way we play it in my campaign. When the character has layered armor, we choose to apply the degradation only to the outermost layer that is still intact. The rule doesn't indicate whether, on subsequent attacks, the comparison of powers should use the original rating of the armor or the reduced rating of the armor. It's a GM call. In our game we use the original rating.

Here is a link to more information about Armor Degradation from a couple weeks ago.
Dende
QUOTE
The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons.


So I am to presume that my ninja(imagine Taki from Soul Calibur) using 2 long style daggers(possibly wagasishis) does not get a power bonus?
Does this mean the thought path for explaination is that the extra .5 die(from skill) means i never hit with both at the same time or what? It seems never 2 7Ms nor 9M or 10M to account for 2 weapons, is this really right? Only 9 die for 7M?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
If the TN to be resisted is less than or equal to the hardened armor rating, there is no effect. In melee, the rules indicate that the power level is increased with excessive successes, so you just need to roll really well.

I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate; I'll check, but I think it's explicitly stated that the weapon has to have power greater than the armor rating before any modifications (unless it's a firearm with AP/AV rounds).

~J
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Dende)
QUOTE
The 1.5 power is only explicitly stated for multiple spurs, hand razors, or other such weapons.


So I am to presume that my ninja(imagine Taki from Soul Calibur) using 2 long style daggers(possibly wagasishis) does not get a power bonus?
Does this mean the thought path for explaination is that the extra .5 die(from skill) means i never hit with both at the same time or what? It seems never 2 7Ms nor 9M or 10M to account for 2 weapons, is this really right? Only 9 die for 7M?

Yes, that's entirely accurate. Your second weapon doesn't actually matter; you can be a Troll using a halberd in one hand and a pocket knife in the other and you still get half your pocket knife dice added. The point is that the expanded versatility of attack options increases the likelihood of your getting something past the opponent's defenses, or something like that.

~J
BitBasher
Combat in shadowrun is abstract, you never hit twice, because one "attack" is hitting more than once in the first place. This is explained if you read the description of the way melee combat works. Multiple weapons just changes the final power of the attack and/or the number of dice you roll.

Which by the way is pretty flipping stupid, because if you have a knife in one hand, the other hand is still a flipping weapon you can use. it doens't magically turn into a new weapon when you hold a second knife, all it does is turn into a different type of waepon, from fist to knife.
Diesel
You inflict more damage by rolling more dice. This increases the chance of the weapon inflicting a greater damage level through staging up. Whether this means you deflected their attack and nailed them with your other blade, hit them three or four times with your daggers, or just stabbed them in the face, is up to your GM. The combat in Shadowrun is abstract. You roll X dice vs. their Y dice doing Z damage. The specifics are up to you.
Kagetenshi
Cannon Companion, page 51:

"If the base Power of an attack (unmodified by burst or full-auto fire) does not exceed the rating of the armor, the attack is deflected and does no damage."

So I guess I was wrong about things like EX-EX not helping against armor, but that still leaves your 7M weapon focus high and dry.

~J
Dende
Well but it says unmodified as in burst or full auto... staging up isn't in the same class, not really. Staging up means you found a kink in the armor, or hit extra freaking hard. Not hit him 3 times(which is what burst really is) It would make sense that even a butter knife could find a hole in the guy's crotch or armpit or somewhere, even on the best armor...

Even the worst sword can slice through a masamune in the right hands...
Kagetenshi
Not actually true. If the metal just isn't up to the task, no amount of skill is going to make it slice.
Regardless, though, the entire point of hardened armor is that it's so well-protected that you really aren't going to find much to do anything to. There are called shot rules for melee on CC page 85-86, and if your GM is nice he or she will bump down the armor value in the location targeted by a few points, thus making the difference.

~J

Edit: and because of the abstract nature of melee combat, hitting with 44 successes could very well mean you just got into a rhythm and managed to hit him 50 times in 3 seconds rather than any given hit being particularly skillful.
Dende
That may be very possible...I suppose a butter knife might not...except for simple physics, a penny dropped off the empire state building embeds itself 1 ft deep in concrete. IE with enough force, it should work no matter the grade of metal(mind you the penny is unrecognizable after retrival)

But take it from this angle, could a level 4 weapon focii base dam 7 m cut through it dealing 13M? Even in DND a merely +1 weapon reduces damage reduction by like 10/-...
Kagetenshi
Nope, because it still deals 7M staged up to 13D.

~J
Dende
But it's a weapon focii...aka MAGIC...I really don't see the logic in this...if it was really a butter knife that is one thing, but a level 4 weapon focii not dealing even staged up to hurt it...that seems absurd.
I don't mean to harp, but please can somone explain to me the logic behind this?
John Campbell
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Yes, that's entirely accurate. Your second weapon doesn't actually matter; you can be a Troll using a halberd in one hand and a pocket knife in the other and you still get half your pocket knife dice added.

I've been considering house ruling that if you win the melee contest only because of successes on the bonus dice you get from the secondary weapon, you do damage as per the secondary weapon. Haven't actually tried that out in a game to see how well it really works, though.
Diesel
QUOTE (Dende)
a penny dropped off the empire state building embeds itself 1 ft deep in concrete.

[QUOTE]

I took a solemn vow to correct anyone who ever says the above. So here goes.

No, a penny will not imbed itself into concrete, it will not kill anyone, in fact, you can probably throw it harder than it'd fall. There's a magical thing called terminal velocity, which in short makes the penny go faster, faster, faster...and that's it! Coins have a high surface area to mass ratio, making their terminal velocity pretty low. If you want to find out the terminal velocity of an object, tie a string/rope to it, hang it out your car's window, and drive. When the string is between seven and eight o' clock (225 deg), check your speed. That's the velocity. This doesn't take into account tumbling, unless your a boy scout, so your figures may vary. A lot.

Now, back to your normally scheduled thread.
Cray74
QUOTE (Dende)
That may be very possible...I suppose a butter knife might not...except for simple physics, a penny dropped off the empire state building embeds itself 1 ft deep in concrete. IE with enough force, it should work no matter the grade of metal(mind you the penny is unrecognizable after retrival)

Heh. No. See: "terminal velocity" and "aerodynamic drag." The penny will bounce a few feet up after hitting the ground or maybe break skin if it hit someone.
Kagetenshi
That's because weapon foci aren't magic weapons in the d20/D&D style (I make the distinction because there were decent versions of D&D before 3rd ed). They aid a user in using their weapon rather than being mystically sharp and able to cleave blocks of stone with a single blow by themselves. They add to your skill, so if something can't be done with skill alone, it's still impossible with the focus.

~J
BitBasher
Terminal velocity of a penny is 20-45 MPH depending on how it falls, and it has very little mass, that isnt gonna kill anyone.

http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~macklem/paper.html

Dont believe everything you hear, most of it is bullshit.
moosegod
Like what you just posted

wink.gif
Zazen
When I was a kid I threw two pennies off the top of the Empire State Building and one off of the World Trade Center. There were no nets or special fences or anything to prevent you from doing so. I wondered then why there weren't fields of penny-craters circling the ground floors of the buildings (heck, I couldn't even find my craters), then I got a little older and figured out why.

Now I think the myth might go both ways. Recently a professor told me that the terminal velocity of a mouse is slow enough for it to survive a fall from any height. A rat, he said, is just large enough to be injured or killed. I looked for information about it but was unable to find anything useful. Does anyone know about mouse-tossing?
moosegod
Go try it.

And tell TerraFirst! before you do!
Kagetenshi
The mouse/rat may or may not be true, but there's a reason why there is (I believe) a Chinese saying that "a person may fall from a tree and die, but an ant can fall from the moon and walk away".
Of course, that may be another "Confucious say". Regardless, it's true (well, the ant has to start in-atmosphere, but other than that).

~J
Dende
pennies and mice aside...

How about the simple analogy of diamond, hardest substance on earth(naturally occuring, anyways) and the fact i can use an aluminum hammer and shatter it. (Diamond resists cutting, not shatter, ask your local jeweler)

I see the rules, I don't get the rules. Computers I get, computers in SR I really don't. And fyi my weapon focii are both +4(well together, it is a pair of blades, meant to be used together) So you are saying then that no amount of skill with a blade could overcome an item with the same hardness(damage 7 versus hardened 7 impact) under any cicurmstance? I just don't see how that can be true...

Perhaps I am just lost in the world between realism and portraying it inaccurately in RPGs...
Cain
QUOTE (Dende)
But it's a weapon focii...aka MAGIC...I really don't see the logic in this...if it was really a butter knife that is one thing, but a level 4 weapon focii not dealing even staged up to hurt it...that seems absurd.
I don't mean to harp, but please can somone explain to me the logic behind this?

Okay, a rating-4 weapon focus isn't the same as a +4 weapon. You gain 4 additional dice to use in your combat test, on both attack and defense. Which is a huge advantage.

In Shadowrun, melee combat is not "I hit you then wait for you to hit me". It's a series of feints, counters, dodges, kicks, punches, and strikes. It's abstract, and not what a D&D player would be thinking of.

Every melee test in Shadowrun is an opposed test. It's your skill vs. the other guy, with the winner dealing damage. Thus, the number of dice you roll makes a huge difference. Assuming equal TN's, if you have even one more die than your opponent, you'll be likely to deal damage each and every time, regardless of who's action it is. (So yes, you *can* be hurt on your action. If you instigate a melee attack, and lose the test, you'll be taking damage.)

A rating 4 weapon focus does not add to the damage, it adds to your skill. Which means, it protects you and enables you to roll more dice, potentially staging up the damage. However, it still does the same base damage as any other weapon of the same type. If a normal sword does 7M, if you enchant it into a weapon focus, it'll still do 7M. You just have a better chance of doing a more damaging attack with it.

Now, the rule that people here are referring to is the one that says every 2 successes that stage the weapon damage past Deadly turns into a +1 to power. So, in order for that 7M weapon to deal a 13D, you first need four net successes to stage it to deadly, then ten additional successes to raise the power that much. That's a grand total of fourteen net successes. I don't even want to think about how many dice you'd need to roll, and how badly the other guy had to have rolled.

But to go back to your question-- hardened armor is only affected by the base power of the weapon. Think of it this way-- let's say you've got a three-inch thich sheet of steel. No matter how often you hit it with a knife, or how accurately, you won't be able to punch a hole in it. A weapon focus doesn't make you hit any harder, only more accurately.
Sphynx
Heheh, Cain hit it on the head IMHO. You can believe (from a 10+ year vet of the game) that +4 dice is ALOT better than an increase to damage levels. 2 people in combat, only 1 gets to hit, and it's the person with the most successes. You want to roll more dice than God. Our resident Melee Expert rolls 52 dice before adding in Combat Pool (and will be rolling 54 as soon as he gets his next initiation).

Sphynx
Seville
QUOTE (Cray74)
Heh. No. See: "terminal velocity" and "aerodynamic drag." The penny will bounce a few feet up after hitting the ground or maybe break skin if it hit someone.

Actually, its not just aerodynamic drag, but also a bunch of factors referred to as (originally enough) non-aerodynamic drag. For a tumbling penny, without much weight but relatively high surface area, I would imagine that most drag would be parasitic, but thats just a guess from a guy who's not an aeronautical engineer.
mfb
one possible houserule to deal with the "why won't my super magic sword cut through concrete" 'issue' would be to allow the force of the
focus to be split between adding dice to the attack, and adding power to the attack--i'm thinking of +1 power per point of force. how the force is split between these two would be decided when the roll is made.
Dende
Here's how. At char gen, I have a 6 point ambidexterity edge. I have a 6 edged weapons skill, total of 9 since the 6 and 8 point ambi edge mean no offhand weapon skill, and just add .5 of the skill again. Then the +4 focii, now I have 13. I also have 9 combat pool as an adept, but I wasn't using them really, 13 die versus 4 I figured I didn't need them(and I was right) and yes I got 10 success a few times, staging the damage to 13D but dealing none for his assy armor.

And actually a 3in sheet of steel wouldn't be immune to a knife if the knife was also steel and was hitting the sheet with enough force(the whole point of AP ammo) Now, it may very well damage the weapon, but I would think it would be able to damage the armor too.


Okay, but 52 to 54 Die....WHAT THE HELL?
El_Machinae
QUOTE (Dende)
And actually a 3in sheet of steel wouldn't be immune to a knife if the knife was also steel and was hitting the sheet with enough force

And that's why, if your character was stronger, you'd have been able to hurt the fellow.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Dende)
And actually a 3in sheet of steel wouldn't be immune to a knife if the knife was also steel and was hitting the sheet with enough force(the whole point of AP ammo).

That's a great comparison. If you can strike the knife against the sheet of steel at 1000m/s (3300fps). Which I'm partial to think you won't, no matter what kind of Gung-Ho Ninja Master we're talking about.

[Edit]And more importantly: What El Machinae said.[/Edit]
Sphynx
Don't forget, Weapon Foci adds to the skill (not just additional dice, but actual skill improvement), so holding 2 weapon foci stacks. 2 Force 4's = +8 to the 'skill'. wink.gif So, with the exception that you can't possibly start with the resources for 2, Force6 weapon foci (and bonding costs), you could start out of char-gen with a skill of 24 (6 + Improved ability-6 + 2 Force6 WeaponFoci). Ambidex would raise that to 36. wink.gif Of course, add in a couple hundred karma (we are an old game of power gamers), and getting both the ability (and the improved ability) to 12's isn't that improbable. Thus, 54 dice. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Dende
Small clarification, I have one weapon focus. It is 2 swords(wakashishis). Using both I get the bonus, they are a pair meant to be used together. I call them focii cause there is more than one and they both have a bonus, I guess it could be expressed as 2 +2s...
That is how I was able to afford them.

QUOTE
And that's why, if your character was stronger, you'd have been able to hurt the fellow.


But strentgh determines weapon damage? I was told the damage was 7M...period, how does my strentgh affect it?


A for starting with 24 die....Not possible...even with 30 skill picks, you haev apenalty for all of them above equal to your strength(the way I see the rules, 1.5times cost after that) And of course that leaves 0 skill picks for anything else...What a horrible character, that doesn't sound like fun at all. I like rounded ones.
Sphynx
Damage for a weapon is (Str+Bonus)M. Ie: Katana is rated as (Str+3)M. I'd guess a Wakazashi at +2, so you'd have to have a Str of 5 to do 7M with that weapon.

As for other comments.... nyahnyah.gif

As a dwarf with a +2 Str, you don't even need all that many points in Str to get it to 6. With only 6 points towards a weapon skill (and having only 1 weapon skill) even with the lowest 27 skill points, that leaves plenty to 'round out' a character.

Also, I said that, with the exception that you can't possibly start with the resources for 2, Force6 weapon foci (and bonding costs), MEANING you can't start with that.

My friend started with 18 dice (3 Power Points for +6 Edged Weapons and 6 skill points, and ambidex), and a weapon focus that he bonded later, in-game (so after about 5 games he had 27 dice). nyahnyah.gif He spent his last 3 Power Points to get a geasa'd (Condition) +4 Strength for a starting strength of 12 (15M damage). And with a Strength of 12, getting the skill-specializations up to 12 was not nearly as expensive as you'd think (don't raise the skill, just the spec after 6). nyahnyah.gif

Considering that leaves 21 skill points at char-gen, and a whole crapload of attribute points, he started pretty well-rounded, and more importantly, still the best at what he does. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
TinkerGnome
Hardened armor is fairly scary in some instances. There aren't many things that have it, but the things that are are meant to be real bastards to hurt. Vehicles are, by far, the worst because of the staging that the vehicle body does before you apply armor.
Dende
Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way. Instead of fighting the rules, hows about I make them work for me. Is there a better kind of metal or anything to make better weapons out of? Like instead of a knife having base of like +3...use titanium to make it +5 or maybe masterwork blades or anything?
TinkerGnome
You can have it Dikoted™ (Man and Machine, page 111). That raises power and damage level both for edged weapons and makes them cut through barriers better. A Dikoted katana, for instance, does (Str+4)S and a Dikoted knife does (Str+1)M.
Dende
How expensive is that? And it raises each by +1(as in from 7M to 8M base and +1 die?)and can focii be Dikoted?

Oh, I am sorry to ask, but only the GM of our camp has that book. I can look when we play again Thursday...but I was hoping to see what I could do before then.
Cain
It doesn't add a die, it only adds to the power and damage level. And yes, you can dikote a focus. As long as the weapon can stand a few moments at extremely high temperatures, it'll be fine; swords are no problem, but wooden clubs are pretty much out.

To go back a bit: your weapon's damage is based on your character's Strength. So, if you're not strong enough to drive a knife through that 3-inch sheet of steel, it doesn't matter what the knife's made of, or how accurately it hits.

Let's use this as an example. Your character, and two teammates, are fighting a guy in medium Mil-spec armor with a helmet (10/10). You're all wielding the same type of weapon-- we'll assume a katana (Str+3)M physical damage. That gives you a damage code of 7M, assuming you have a Str of 4. Your opponent is carrying a weapon with equal reach, and has skill 6 and whirling, to negate the Friends in melee modifiers.

No matter how hard you try, you're not going to be able to penetrate the guy's armor. You're just not strong enough. Your skill and focus dice make you that much better at combat; you're striking accurately and defending well, but you just can't punch through.

Your first buddy, a gun-bunny with a strength of 8 and a skill of 2, is strong enough to hurt him, but not likely to with his low skill. He's more likely to be hurt. Since he's a mundane, his weapon could be a focus or not; it doesn't really matter, he won't get any bonuses from it.

Your second buddy, a mundane troll street sam, has a strength of 15 and a skill of 6, plus Enhanced Articulation for an extra die. Not only is he strong enough to punch through the guy's armor (doing a whopping 18M!) but since his skill is slightly better, he'll win on average. He's throwing less dice than you are, but is more effective, simply because he can apply enouh force to penetrate the armor.

So, the answer here is to increase your strength. In your case, spending karma will do the trick; you can choose to raise it normally, or spend 20 karma and buy a power point's worth of increase. You might also consider buying 4 levels of strength boost for that cost; it's only a short-term boost, but it'll do the trick.
moosegod
QUOTE (Dende)
maybe masterwork blades or anything?

Oh no! Someone mentioned the Other Game! wobble.gif

Really, though, most Shadowrun materials are assumed to be more or less the best on the market. After all, we are working with nano-engineered products, high pressures, etc.
Sokei
as far as your armor piercing analogy goes, sure your sword would be able to penetrate that metal if you could swing it at the same velocity of the bullet, other wise id say increase your strength or dicote your blades.

the sick thing is that you then have 14 dice before combat pool, to swing a 9s blade.... thats disgusting. just out of curiousity if you have that capabilty what do the others in your group have?
Dende
Well, we have a Vampire(new vamp, with a bit dampened powers) an adept sniper with a 14S gun and like 8 Die...And a mage once initiated.

I really don't think 14 die with 9s is even as powerful as them, as a ninja my range is only about 30m for thrown weapons which isn't great with like 7L or M dam...Only in melee can I do much at all.

As the game progresses and the mage learns new spells, the vamp learns new abilities and the GM and I are trying to make ninja powers(very adept like, but Naruto style) so pretty cool all around.

Oh and according to Man and Machine my blades would be 13 Die with 8S...and 9 combat pool die.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Nov 21 2003, 05:42 PM)
If the TN to be resisted is less than or equal to the hardened armor rating, there is no effect.  In melee, the rules indicate that the power level is increased with excessive successes, so you just need to roll really well.

I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate; I'll check, but I think it's explicitly stated that the weapon has to have power greater than the armor rating before any modifications (unless it's a firearm with AP/AV rounds).

~J

Check SR3, pg 123.

"If the character is able to stage his damage up to Deadly, any extra successes can be used to increase the Power Rating of the attack by one for every two remaining successes achieved by the victor."

Meaning that, if you are the all being ninja of the universe, soldiers in hardened armor will be wishing they had their combat pool back.

7M Katana with 8 net successes becomes a 9D katana.
8S Dikoted katana with 8 successes becomes an 11D katana.
Cain
Check p263, BBB
QUOTE
Hardened Armor
"If the power of an attack (unmodified by burst fire or anything else) against the creature does not exceed the rating of the beings armor, the attack does no damage."

Granted, that's the critter power, but it works the same way for vehicular and milspec armor. Since the base power isn't enough to affect the target, no amount of modifiers will change that fact.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
Check SR3, pg 123.

"If the character is able to stage his damage up to Deadly, any extra successes can be used to increase the Power Rating of the attack by one for every two remaining successes achieved by the victor."

I'm aware of the rule. I'm just certain in my own mind that that's as irrelevant as burst-fire when it comes to hardened armor. You may have a different view, but it's not defended by the passage you quoted.

~J
gknoy
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Nov 23 2003, 04:14 PM)
Check SR3, pg 123.
"If the character is able to stage his damage up to Deadly, any extra successes can be used to increase the Power Rating of the attack by one for every two remaining successes achieved by the victor."

I'm aware of the rule. I'm just certain in my own mind that that's as irrelevant as burst-fire when it comes to hardened armor. You may have a different view, but it's not defended by the passage you quoted.


I think that the way they picure it as relevant is in the fact that successes represent skillful maneuvering and feints -- for example, you happen to jam your blade into the itty bitty opening in the elbow joint of the guard's armor just as he happens to have his arm bent /just so/ while attacking at that one opportune moment.

Yes, rare. Damaging? probably not:

If you get enough successes to stage your 7M wakizashi up to 10D or something, that's ... 7 excess successes, I think. Isn't 7 successes a /lot/ (for all but our melee-god-ninja friend someone posted smile.gif), especially given that it's an opposed test? That's why it's rare.

Now on why it's not so damaging: The hardened armor, at rating 10 or something, would change that 10D or 11D attack into a 1 or 2D attack. Anyone wearing hardened body armor probably has a body of 5-6 (since you don't give uber-good gear to weak mooks smile.gif), so they're probably going to get 4-6 successes. That's enough to stage the Deadly damage down to, say, light. Which means you've just nicked his elbow. If he botches his body test, or you got even more sucesses, then maybe it means you severed some blood vessel ... but that's the whole point of "successes", I think.

A more interesting question is, how does it differ from burst fire. Burst fire has an elevated power code not because it hits better places, but because you're likley to be hit by the whole burst, and therefore more lead is impacting your chest -- hardened armor would probably turn most burst fire into lead splatters (excepting APDS or EX-EX, I guess). (I think that the power increase, not just the damage increase, is due to this effect, given the way that two-round short-bursts are handled in SR3: +2 power, no + to damage level.)

The power damage staging from excessive successes seems like it's more about the well-placed shot (eg, you happen to hit him in the groin-to-thigh juncture, or in the middle of the faceplate, which is naturally slightly less armored than a half-inch of steel. smile.gif), and thus seems to be reasonable.

What I am wondering is, why are these people going after hardened armor with short swords?? I hope it's not by choice ... my ideal way of dealing with hardened armor would be a sticky-bomb or some other entangler (heck, maybe just a pair of Trolls to hold him down), and an oxy-acetylene torch. =) Or set him on fire. Or remove his air filter and then set him on fire. Or an industrial strength electromagnet to hold his hands together ;D
leemur
QUOTE

Yes, rare.  Damaging? probably not:

If you get enough successes to stage your 7M wakizashi up to 10D or something, that's ... 7 excess successes, I think.  Isn't 7 successes a /lot/ (for all but our melee-god-ninja friend someone posted smile.gif), especially given that it's an opposed test?  That's why it's rare.


Actually, that's 10 required succeses for 10D, or 8 if your sword is Dikoted. Which is still not all that unlikely, even for an opposed test, for a good close combat character. A starting character with 6 skill, using 6 combat pool. a sword and aptitude edged weapons gets 10 succeses on average. And if you were fighting guys in hardened armor, then chances are your not a starting character.

QUOTE
Now on why it's not so damaging:  The hardened armor, at rating 10 or something, would change that 10D or 11D attack into a 1 or 2D attack.  Anyone wearing hardened body armor probably has a body of 5-6 (since you don't give uber-good gear to weak mooks smile.gif), so they're probably going to get 4-6 successes.  That's enough to stage the Deadly damage down to, say, light.  Which means you've just nicked his elbow.  If he botches his body test, or you got even more sucesses, then maybe it means you severed some blood vessel ... but that's the whole point of "successes", I think.


So doing 10D, the guy soaking with a body of 6 (which is quite high, but makes the maths much easier) is going to average 5 succeses, bringing it down to an M wound.

So you've just managed to do a medium wound to a guy with an amour of 10 and a body of 6. I'd say that's not bad.


Ol' Scratch
And if you're fighting guys in hardened armor, chances are they're not unskilled chumps who'll let you just walk all over them with 10 successes. Successes are determined after the counterattack, so no, 10 successes is not likely unless you're fighting some crippled gangers or something.

But let's assume some mediocre chump got himself some MilSpec armor. He has an Edged Weapons skill of 4 and a Combat Pool of 4. You have Edged Weapons 6 and Combat Pool 10 with an Aptitude. Base target number for this example will be a 4. Both are using the same weapon.

Random rolls:
Mediocre Guy (8 dice): 11, 8, 7, 5, 5, 3, 2, 2. 5 successes.
Starting Character (12 dice): 10, 9, 7, 7, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1. 8 successes.

That's 3 net successes. Last time I checked, that was a ways off from 10 net successes. Hell, take away four of Mediocre Guy's successes (giving him a skill of only 2) and you still only net 7 successes. Quite a ways off from 10.

Regardless, hardened armor also specifically states base Power of weapons. Successes on a melee test do not increase the base Power of a weapon anymore than they increase the base Damage Level of a weapon or a Burst Fire/Full Auto increases the base Power of a firearm. Hence the specific use of the word "base." As opposed to "final Power modified by everything under the sun."
mfb
c'mon, funk. next, you'll be saying that guns are better than swords, or something crazy like that.
leemur
QUOTE
And if you're fighting guys in hardened armor, chances are they're not unskilled chumps who'll let you just walk all over them with 10 successes.  Successes are determined after the counterattack, so no, 10 successes is not likely unless you're fighting some crippled gangers or something.


Or unless you happen to be good with a melee weapon. I am not saying attacking a heavily armored person in hand to hand is a good idea, I am saying it's feasible and effective with the right skill set.

QUOTE

But let's assume some mediocre chump got himself some MilSpec armor.  He has an Edged Weapons skill of 4 and a Combat Pool of 4.  You have Edged Weapons 6 and Combat Pool 10 with an Aptitude.  Base target number for this example will be a 4.  Both are using the same weapon.


I really have to question this example.

Firstly, like I said in my previous post, it's not likely that a starting character will be fighting guys in hardended armor.

A character who attacks someone in hardened armor is either stupid or good in hand to hand. If we assume that they are capable in hand to hand, consider that the guy in hardened armor is not all that likely to be a close combat kind of guy. And the further into a campaign this is, the more likely the gap is going to between the close combat skills of Mr Sword and Mr Hardened Armor.

Consider that a starting physad with aptitude and sword is quite capapble of rolling 18 dice with TN of 2, for 15 succeses. Even if we be incredibly generous and give the hardened armor guy a Martial Arts skill of 6, he will be rolling 12 dice with TN of 4, for 6 succcess. Why your Chump is carrying a sword is beyond me.

QUOTE

Random rolls:
Mediocre Guy (8 dice):  11, 8, 7, 5, 5, 3, 2, 2.  5 successes.
Starting Character (12 dice):  10, 9, 7, 7, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1.  8 successes.


I may be alone on this, but I prefer to handle these things statistically. With a series of (admitidly unlikely) dice rolls, I could prove my physad could take a dragon in one shot.

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That's 3 net successes.  Last time I checked, that was a ways off from 10 net successes.  Hell, take away four of Mediocre Guy's successes (giving him a skill of only 2) and you still only net 7 successes.  Quite a ways off from 10.


My example gives a net of 9 success (on average). Although that does assume starting characters.

(Sidenote: Every time I think the phrase 'starting character', I start typing 'first level character', even though I haven't played any other RPG than Shadowrun in the past 18 months)

QUOTE

Regardless, hardened armor also specifically states base Power of weapons.  Successes on a melee test do not increase the base Power of a weapon anymore than they increase the base Damage Level of a weapon or a Burst Fire/Full Auto increases the base Power of a firearm.  Hence the specific use of the word "base."  As opposed to "final Power modified by everything under the sun."


The bit I originally replied to made no mention of this, and, since I have no knowledge of these rules, I have neither the knowledge or desire to contest it.
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