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> What can a 2-gun fighter do?, Different actions per hand.
Everfast
post Oct 5 2007, 01:55 AM
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Okay, after a lot of searches, I haven't found what I'm looking for, so here goes. I'm wondering what someone using two guns simultaneously can do. Can they do different things with each hand? I've put together a little chart (hope it comes out well), of what I think is possible, but I could very well be horribly mistaken.

For the sake of the example, I am assuming full ambidexterity and a SA Pistol. For phases 6 and 7, I am hypothesizing the usage of the two adept abilities of Multi-tasking (2 free actions per phase) and Nimble Fingers (eject clip and load clip are free actions).

...................................................
Phase.....Left.....................Right...........
...................................................
1.......(s)Draw.................(s)Quickdraw-Aim...
........(s)Shoot................(s)Shoot (-1TN)....
...................................................
2.......(s)Aim..................(s)Shoot...........
........(s)Shoot (-1TN).........(s)Shoot...........
...................................................
3.......(s)Shoot................(s)Shoot...........
........(s)Shoot................(s)Shoot...........
...................................................
4.......(s)Aim..................(s)Aim.............
........(s)Shoot (-1TN).........(s)Shoot (-1TN)....
...................................................
5.......(s)Shoot................(s)Aim.............
........(s)Holster..............(s)Shoot (-1TN)....
...................................................
*6..............................(f)Eject...........
........(f)Load....................................
6.......(s)Quickdraw-Aim........(s)Shoot...........
........(s)Shoot (-1TN).........(s)Holster.........
...................................................
*7......(f)Eject...................................
................................(f)Load............
7.......(s)Shoot................(s)Quickdraw-Shoot.
........(s)Shoot................(s)Shoot...........
...................................................



This isn't to demonstrate every possible combo, just a few I thought up. Also, please ignore the ammo disparity between weapons. Let me know what you think about this. Thanks.
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JBlades
post Oct 5 2007, 02:09 AM
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Just something I see off the bat: there's no need to holster the weapon in order to eject the clip and reload. In fact holstering would hinder the operation to the point of improbability with some holster/gun setups. The only time that would make sense would be holstering gun #2 so you could reload gun #1 (see below).

Ejecting a clip is either a mental command (with a smartlink) or thumbing a little button on the side of the gun (usually near the trigger), assuming we're talking semiautos here, which it looks like we are since it's a SA weapon. Loading a semiauto is just slapping a new clip in once the old one is clear, then releasing the slide (another thought/lever on the side of the gun). The tricky part with 2 guns is getting a new clip into the gun when your other hand is busy.

Realistically, you'd be talking about ducking behind something for a few seconds and doing this operation to both guns, one at a time. However, this being a non-realistic game, I suppose a gadget could be set up on a belt or something to facilitate this. Just to clarify for a visualization, to reload gun #1 it's something like: 1. eject clip of gun #1 by simply thumbing the button 2. stick gun #2 in armpit to free your hand so you can 3. find a clip in pouch on belt then 4. slap clip into gun #1 and hit the slide release 5. grab gun#2 from your armpit and either resume firing or reload gun #2 by repeating the above procedure. Note that in real life, gun #2's barrel might be hot enough to give you second degree burns in your armpit but we'll ignore that for now! :D
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tisoz
post Oct 5 2007, 02:23 AM
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Each weapon needs a point or two of recoil compensation or you need to add it in for each shot after the first in a phase. I do not know if you ignored/omitted it, or just wanted to show the reduced TN due to aiming. But accumulated recoil from both guns is one of the major drawbacks. And TN increases from switching targets.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 5 2007, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (JBlades)
However, this being a non-realistic game, I suppose a gadget could be set up on a belt or something to facilitate this.

Didn't Equilibrium have a toy on the Super-1337-gun-guy outfits that just popped up two recplacement clips so that he could reload without taking a finger away from either trigger?

(I think it did, it's at least as rationally useful as the weighted clips that right themselves so you can reload while cartwheeling down a hallway.)
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JBlades
post Oct 5 2007, 02:53 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Didn't Equilibrium have a toy on the Super-1337-gun-guy outfits that just popped up two replacement clips so that he could reload without taking a finger away from either trigger?

(I think it did, it's at least as rationally useful as the weighted clips that right themselves so you can reload while cartwheeling down a hallway.)

:D That's actually exactly what I was thinking of when I typed that line. It would fit perfectly in SR (especially with a smartgun link and it tied into the system).
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Everfast
post Oct 5 2007, 03:00 AM
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Blades, you are holstering one weapon so your hand is free to reload the one still in the other hand. But I can see where you might have been confused because I had two of the actions swapped (now fixed).

Tisoz, you are correct, I took the recoil for granted, but a couple of points per gun shouldn't be too hard to come by.
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Fix-it
post Oct 5 2007, 04:49 AM
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why, he can miss twice as much as a one gun fighter.
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wargear
post Oct 5 2007, 10:23 AM
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I think i'd go with a Lara Croft style holster arrangement, allowing you to reload quickly and easily, your spare clips held ready to load in the holsters.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 5 2007, 11:54 AM
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Belted ammo.

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CrystalBlue
post Oct 5 2007, 12:12 PM
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I don't really think you'd need to 'put away' a gun to reload another. It would just be harder. Sure, your hands are really full, but dexterous people would be able to do it. I think you could get away with it by having to make a quick draw roll with a mod equal to the type of gun you have in your hand. -1 for light pistols, -2 for heavy, and -3 for machine pistols. I think that'd be fair. And if you fail, it still takes you 2 actions instead of one. If you glitch, I can see you dropping the gun. Critical glitch and you drop both weapons.

But...that's just my .02.
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nezumi
post Oct 5 2007, 01:40 PM
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I'll go through phase by phase. Problems with one action won't carry over to the next, so you can read along more easily.

Phase 1:
The rules indicate you cannot draw two weapons simultaneously (unless they're throwing weapons). So your 1-1 action, you're turning 1 simple action into 2 simple actions. Strictly not kosher.

1-1 you can't quickdraw-aim. The rules indicate a quickdraw is immediately followed by firing it.

(As a note, we're also assuming the gun is already cocked with the safety off and a bullet ready.)

1-2 Assuming both weapons are drawn and the Right gun has already fired once (and with full ambidexterity) the penalty to BOTH guns is +3 from recoil. If you have 1 recoil compensation, that would be reduced to +1. With 2 recoil comp, it's reduced to 0.

2-1 You cannot aim and shoot in the same action. Keep in mind also that the benefits from taking aim are immediately lost if you take ANY other action before the aimed weapon is fired. So aiming and two-weapon combat is not compatible.

2-2 as with 1-2, recoil applies.

3 - recoil applies. First shot would be +2 to BOTH attacks (recoil), second would be +4 to BOTH guns.

4 - Can't aim twice. You could arguably aim ONE weapon, then fire both, and apply the aim benefits to only one of those. So one weapon gets a +1 modifier (+2 from recoil -1 from aim), the other gets +2

5-1 as before, can't shoot and aim
5-2 Can't shoot and holster

6 - With your adept abilities you can load a weapon in one turn without spending actions. That's pretty cool, and I guess since it's free actions, it wouldn't break your pace. That turn would be:

eject mag (free)
load mag (free)
fire both guns (simple)
fire both guns (simple)

No reason for holstering, as has been mentioned. The only problem that arises is if you wait until both weapons are empty, since it'll take 1 turn to load each gun. Assuming both guns have identical ammo capacities, you'll want to load one when it still has 1 cartridge left (which is now in the pipe, so it's not a wasted shot) and the other when it's actually empty. This is assuming your GM doesn't require a ready action to cock a freshly loaded gun.

So let's assume we're using an SA with a 4 round magazine

(first number is rounds in the mag, second is rounds in the chamber)
shot gun1 ammo gun2 ammo
1.............3/1...............3/1
2............2/1................2/1
3............1/1................1/1
4............0/1................0/1 (reload gun 1 now)
5............4/1................0/0 (reload gun 2 now)
6...........3/1.................3/1


Of course, if your GM actually requires a Ready Weapon to ready a bullet in the chamber, you'll want to change the first gun when it's 1/1, with one bullet still in the magazine. Bullets are cheaper than actions.
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Alphastream
post Oct 5 2007, 05:17 PM
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This thread just further reinforces that 2-gun fighting in SR seems to be pretty weak. Am I missing something that makes it work, outside of the cool-movie factor?
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Irian
post Oct 5 2007, 06:11 PM
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You can avoid a -1 recoil if you fire each weapon only once per phase? :-)
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Everfast
post Oct 5 2007, 06:17 PM
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Nezumi, thanks for the input. You confirmed a lot of what I feared and not what I had hoped. I do have a few more questions though. I guess my biggest one is does one hand have to mirror the other? That just doesn't seem right to me. I think I am interpreting the rules to mean you get the equivalent of 4 simple actions (or 2 complex for BF), but only for handgun related actions. But I agree that you probably can't perform aim and still do anything else with the other hand. Sadly...

And yeah, both guns would pretty much have to have 2 points of recoil reduction. Not hard to do.

As for Quickdraw, I'm pretty sure you can draw two 'pistol-sized' weapons at the same time. The rule says you get a +2 to the reaction test to do so. But in the first pass, I was trying to show quickdrawing one gun (Reaction 4) and regular drawing the other. I can see how you might say Quickdraw has to draw and shoot, rather than draw and aim. I guess it is supposed to simulate drawing and firing from the hip, with no time to bring your gun(s) up to eye level.

I tried the two gun reload in RL. Granted I don't have the speed nor trained reflexes for the task (my first tries actually), but it just seems kind of clumsy, even for my dominant hand. I could see if the magazine is very handy, but in most cases, I would figure they would be secure in a pouch or pocket where having the tips of some of your smallest fingers makes it kinda tricky to pull off (in a second and a half or less). I don't really dig automatic magazine dispensers or any other 'present-me-with-a-handy-mag' gizmos like that. In fact, if SA wasn't so much better than SS, I'd go with good ol' fashion wheel guns for flava.

Finally, good point about the combat reload (leaving one in the pipe), I would always try to reload like that if possible. And I like your idea of having to use ready weapon if you do go empty, to indicate having to use the slide release.

Thanks again.
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BishopMcQ
post Oct 5 2007, 06:35 PM
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Alpha--The Pistol Adept against poorly trained guards is highly effective with 2 weapons. Without the edge of Imp Ability, then the concept falls back into the cool movies factor.

That said, if your target is stationary, the dual pistols thing works well. Firing dual machine pistols with EX-EX will destroy a wall faster than a single machine pistol, even with the DP penalties.
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tisoz
post Oct 5 2007, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Oct 5 2007, 08:12 AM)
I don't really think you'd need to 'put away' a gun to reload another.  It would just be harder.  Sure, your hands are really full, but dexterous people would be able to do it.  I think you could get away with it by having to make a quick draw roll with a mod equal to the type of gun you have in your hand.  -1 for light pistols, -2 for heavy, and -3 for machine pistols.  I think that'd be fair.  And if you fail, it still takes you 2 actions instead of one.  If you glitch, I can see you dropping the gun.  Critical glitch and you drop both weapons.

But...that's just my .02.

I thought this was a 3rd Edition thread, especially since the 4th edition rules for ambideterity and 2 weapon use got changed. Ambidextrous sucks in 4th because you have to split your dice pool between both hands, but you still get all the recoil goodness.
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nezumi
post Oct 5 2007, 06:49 PM
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If you have a pair of SS weapons, yes, firing each one once per phase can be fully effective. Plus, you can take full advantage of smartlink and other tools with only minor tinkering.

QUOTE
I guess my biggest one is does one hand have to mirror the other?


Keep in mind, I'm only going by what the rules say. Your GM would likely allow for a wider interpretation (I probably would). But by the rules, regardless as to how many hands you have, you have two simple actions or one complex action. As it happens, you can fire two guns in one simple action, but aside from that, there are no cases I know of where you can do two simple actions in one simple action because you're doing each one with one hand. You can't aim with two hands, you can't reload with two hands, unless you're using two separate actions for them. The rules simply don't support that.

By the by, burst fire is also a simple action.

QUOTE

As for Quickdraw, I'm pretty sure you can draw two 'pistol-sized' weapons at the same time.


You'd have to find the page number. I don't remember seeing that anywhere. The rules say 'a' weapon, however as a GM, I don't see any reason why it should be restricted to just one. Simply be aware what the strict reading is so you can make a case. I think most GMs who have seen westerns would agree to allowing you to quickdraw two weapons.

QUOTE
I tried the two gun reload in RL. Granted I don't have the speed nor trained reflexes for the task (my first tries actually), but it just seems kind of clumsy, even for my dominant hand.


Keep in mind, this is SR. Cell phones weigh a pound and handguns have better penetration than assault rifles. If you want to argue to your GM that a professional shooter can't reload a gun while holding two guns, go for it. (I could imagine it being possible, but not with a free action, even with the adept power.)



That said, don't throw out the idea of dual wielding handguns. Two handguns ARE very effective, they just require a lot of initial investment. The ideal setup is a pair of guns (handguns or SMGs) with full recoil compensation and full ambidexterity. You'll never be able to make up for the loss of the smartlink unfortunately (ironically, there's nothing indicating scopes don't work on two guns).

Because of the way that damage resistance works in SR, you want to avoid hitting characters with bursts and instead hit them with lots of individual shots. A pair of 9M attacks is better than a single 12S burst. Why? Firstly, you split up the defender's combat pool among multiple dodges. You can reasonably expect you'll hit about 75% of the time, so 3 hits per turn. With even 1 success with each attack, that means your target has to throw 6-8 combat pool to successfully dodge. That'll toast his combat pool a lot quicker than suppressive fire or just about any other tactic. If you're a fast character, that's a force multiplier, and you can basically guarantee on the next turn he won't be able to dodge at all.

If you're out of combat pool, whether resisting 2 9M attacks or one 12S attack is worse is a matter for some debate, and ultimately depends on the circumstances. A character with very high or very low armor will probably prefer to resist the 12S attack, moderate armor will do best against the two 9M attacks. But with two guns, you can shift your method back and forth (using a smartlink or your adept power to jump from burst to SA and back again, shifting your focus from one gun to two).

The other nice thing is that, even though you're now comparable to an assault rifle to a good degree, handguns are easier to smuggle and get permits for, and more common on your enemies. Hurrah!

I ran a ganger campaign where I limited resources to something like $20k. One guy used a pair of predators and absolutely cleaned up. He'd easily take out a single character every turn, and his equipment was cheap as dirt. I never saw anyone do it on a higher level run. I imagine it can be done very effectively, especially if you're already taking ambidexterity for something else.

Keep in mind that you can fire a pair of bursts with SMGs or machine pistols each round. Then your target has to successfully dodge four attacks, each with a TN of 7, each turn. They're almost certainly not going to make it, and then they have to resist four 10S attacks with whatever combat pool is left. The only problem is putting 6 recoil compensation on an SMG.


If you're truly an evil person, you'd convince your GM that a troll can wield an assault rifle one-handed, then use the dual-wield rules to fire a pair of those every turn. That's how you win shadowrun.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 5 2007, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Alphastream @ Oct 5 2007, 12:17 PM)
This thread just further reinforces that 2-gun fighting in SR seems to be pretty weak. Am I missing something that makes it work, outside of the cool-movie factor?

Mostly the weird way the shots are treated. 2x2xSA=4x9M base, which depending on your attacking ability, the armor of the target, and the target's combat pool and dodge TN can end up being better than 2x9M with a better TN or 2x12S. Also you can theoretically hit four targets, something you can't otherwise do without FA or AoE weapons, though your TN becomes ridiculous.

The other big use case is doing something like 2xSuper Warhawk or other beefy SS gun. One shot with each hand per pass keeps you acting.

~J
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tisoz
post Oct 5 2007, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)
Phase 1:
The rules indicate you cannot draw two weapons simultaneously (unless they're throwing weapons). So your 1-1 action, you're turning 1 simple action into 2 simple actions. Strictly not kosher.

2 weapons can be quickdrawn and fired. This is stated in BBB.107 under Quickdraw.
QUOTE
1-2 Assuming both weapons are drawn and the Right gun has already fired once (and with full ambidexterity) the penalty to BOTH guns is +3 from recoil.  If you have 1 recoil compensation, that would be reduced to +1.  With 2 recoil comp, it's reduced to 0.

I may be misunderstanding you, but yes one gun needs 2 points of RC and the other needs at least one point of RC and shot last not to have RC penalties. It would be simpler to track if both guns had RC2.
QUOTE
2-1 You cannot aim and shoot in the same action.

Not in the same action, but definitely in the same phase.
QUOTE
4 - Can't aim twice.

I disagree if the shooter is aiming both weapons at the same target. Aiming at 2 targets, I could see being arguable.
QUOTE
5-2 Can't shoot and holster

Why not? Are both of these not simple actions? I did not specifically see Holstering a weapon, but readying a weapon (drawing it from a holster) is a simpe action. It seems like putting it back would be about the same. I could see some holsters making it harder to do as a simple action, but just a blanket statement saying it cannot be done seems wrong.
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tisoz
post Oct 5 2007, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Irian)
You can avoid a -1 recoil if you fire each weapon only once per phase? :-)

Not without RC. Any uncompensated recoil gets transferred to the other hand.

Something like Personalized/Custom Grip, whatever it is called, from Cannon Comp. would offset this, as well as an underbarrel weight.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 5 2007, 07:16 PM
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The rules state that a character may use a Take Aim action with a ready weapon, so you can'd aim with both with a single action. The wording does not prohibit, to my reading, using different ready weapons for the Take Aim action, but the maximum number consecutively taken is still capped at 1/2 skill (what happens when different skills are used is not defined).

(Reference: SR3 p107)

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nezumi
post Oct 5 2007, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Oct 5 2007, 09:40 AM)
Phase 1:
The rules indicate you cannot draw two weapons simultaneously (unless they're throwing weapons).  So your 1-1 action, you're turning 1 simple action into 2 simple actions.  Strictly not kosher.

2 weapons can be quickdrawn and fired. This is stated in BBB.107 under Quickdraw.

You are correct. I should have read the whole paragraph. There's your answer, Everfast. Quickdraw is legit with two weapons.

QUOTE

QUOTE
2-1 You cannot aim and shoot in the same action.

Not in the same action, but definitely in the same phase


As long as his action is:
aim
aim
without firing the other gun, yes. If he's aiming the right gun while firing the left gun, or if he aims the right gun then fires the left gun, then fires the right gun, he gets no benefit from aiming.

QUOTE
I disagree if the shooter is aiming both weapons at the same target. Aiming at 2 targets, I could see being arguable.


Take aim specifies you may do so with a weapon. There is no exception written that you may take aim with two weapons, or take two take aim actions at the same time. A strict reading of the rules would seem to indicate aiming two weapons simultaneously is not legitimate. However, most GMs won't enforce that, and I don't know that that was the intention of the writers. (Yes, when people ask for rules interpretations, I am anal retentive. When people ask me to GM, I am very liberal. I don't mind people using the rules well, as long as they understand the conflicts other people might see there.)


QUOTE
Why not? Are both of these not simple actions? I did not specifically see Holstering a weapon, but readying a weapon (drawing it from a holster) is a simpe action. It seems like putting it back would be about the same. I could see some holsters making it harder to do as a simple action, but just a blanket statement saying it cannot be done seems wrong.


1) Because he was holstering and shooting in the same action. In other words, he had two available simple actions, and those simple actions were (shoot & aim) and (holster & shoot). Neither of those are legitimate combinations.

2) The rules are clear that if he takes any other action, including a free action, at the same time, the benefits for aiming are lost. So even if you accept that he can holster and fire in the same SA, the act of holstering eliminates the benefits of the previous take aim action (just like you can't take aim THEN call a shot, calling a shot must precede taking aim or the bonus for aiming is lost).
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Irian
post Oct 5 2007, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Oct 5 2007, 02:10 PM)
QUOTE (Irian @ Oct 5 2007, 02:11 PM)
You can avoid a -1 recoil if you fire each weapon only once per phase? :-)

Not without RC. Any uncompensated recoil gets transferred to the other hand.

Nope. The whole rules apply only if you fire BOTH weapons with ONE single action. But not, if you first fire one weapon once (first action) and then the other weapon once (second action). This also makes sense, it's "fire and forget" (the weapon).
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tisoz
post Oct 5 2007, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)
1) Because he was holstering and shooting in the same action. In other words, he had two available simple actions, and those simple actions were (shoot & aim) and (holster & shoot). Neither of those are legitimate combinations.

2) The rules are clear that if he takes any other action, including a free action, at the same time, the benefits for aiming are lost. So even if you accept that he can holster and fire in the same SA, the act of holstering eliminates the benefits of the previous take aim action (just like you can't take aim THEN call a shot, calling a shot must precede taking aim or the bonus for aiming is lost).

QUOTE (Original Scenario)
5.......(s)Shoot................(s)Aim.............
........(s)Holster..............(s)Shoot (-1TN)....

In the order you describe, I will agree. But in the original scenario, where actions were listed only to the extent to describe each hand, I can see the sequence playing out where it would be legel.

Shoot the first gun
Aim the second gun
Shoot the second gun
Holster the first gun

It gets complicated when dual weilding, like how you pointed out the silly (to me) sequence of needing to declare a called shot before taking aim. It all happens at about the same time.
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tisoz
post Oct 5 2007, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (Irian)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Oct 5 2007, 02:10 PM)
QUOTE (Irian @ Oct 5 2007, 02:11 PM)
You can avoid a -1 recoil if you fire each weapon only once per phase? :-)

Not without RC. Any uncompensated recoil gets transferred to the other hand.

Nope. The whole rules apply only if you fire BOTH weapons with ONE single action. But not, if you first fire one weapon once (first action) and then the other weapon once (second action). This also makes sense, it's "fire and forget" (the weapon).

Can you point me to this rule?

I am going by SR3.112 under Using a Second Firearm where Characters can use two pistol - or SMG - class weapons, one in each hand. <snip stuff about no Ambidexterity and targeting aids> Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon. I do not see anything in the whole rule about breaking it down to actions to avoid recoil.
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