Didn't Equilibrium have a toy on the Super-1337-gun-guy outfits that just popped up two recplacement clips so that he could reload without taking a finger away from either trigger?

(I think it did, it's at least as rationally useful as the weighted clips that right themselves so you can reload while cartwheeling down a hallway.)

That's actually exactly what I was thinking of when I typed that line. It would fit perfectly in SR (especially with a smartgun link and it tied into the system).

I thought this was a 3rd Edition thread, especially since the 4th edition rules for ambideterity and 2 weapon use got changed. Ambidextrous sucks in 4th because you have to split your dice pool between both hands, but you still get all the recoil goodness.

Keep in mind, I'm only going by what the rules say. Your GM would likely allow for a wider interpretation (I probably would). But by the rules, regardless as to how many hands you have, you have two simple actions or one complex action. As it happens, you can fire two guns in one simple action, but aside from that, there are no cases I know of where you can do two simple actions in one simple action because you're doing each one with one hand. You can't aim with two hands, you can't reload with two hands, unless you're using two separate actions for them. The rules simply don't support that.

By the by, burst fire is also a simple action.

You'd have to find the page number. I don't remember seeing that anywhere. The rules say 'a' weapon, however as a GM, I don't see any reason why it should be restricted to just one. Simply be aware what the strict reading is so you can make a case. I think most GMs who have seen westerns would agree to allowing you to quickdraw two weapons.

Keep in mind, this is SR. Cell phones weigh a pound and handguns have better penetration than assault rifles. If you want to argue to your GM that a professional shooter can't reload a gun while holding two guns, go for it. (I could imagine it being possible, but not with a free action, even with the adept power.)



That said, don't throw out the idea of dual wielding handguns. Two handguns ARE very effective, they just require a lot of initial investment. The ideal setup is a pair of guns (handguns or SMGs) with full recoil compensation and full ambidexterity. You'll never be able to make up for the loss of the smartlink unfortunately (ironically, there's nothing indicating scopes don't work on two guns).

Because of the way that damage resistance works in SR, you want to avoid hitting characters with bursts and instead hit them with lots of individual shots. A pair of 9M attacks is better than a single 12S burst. Why? Firstly, you split up the defender's combat pool among multiple dodges. You can reasonably expect you'll hit about 75% of the time, so 3 hits per turn. With even 1 success with each attack, that means your target has to throw 6-8 combat pool to successfully dodge. That'll toast his combat pool a lot quicker than suppressive fire or just about any other tactic. If you're a fast character, that's a force multiplier, and you can basically guarantee on the next turn he won't be able to dodge at all.

If you're out of combat pool, whether resisting 2 9M attacks or one 12S attack is worse is a matter for some debate, and ultimately depends on the circumstances. A character with very high or very low armor will probably prefer to resist the 12S attack, moderate armor will do best against the two 9M attacks. But with two guns, you can shift your method back and forth (using a smartlink or your adept power to jump from burst to SA and back again, shifting your focus from one gun to two).

The other nice thing is that, even though you're now comparable to an assault rifle to a good degree, handguns are easier to smuggle and get permits for, and more common on your enemies. Hurrah!

I ran a ganger campaign where I limited resources to something like $20k. One guy used a pair of predators and absolutely cleaned up. He'd easily take out a single character every turn, and his equipment was cheap as dirt. I never saw anyone do it on a higher level run. I imagine it can be done very effectively, especially if you're already taking ambidexterity for something else.

Keep in mind that you can fire a pair of bursts with SMGs or machine pistols each round. Then your target has to successfully dodge four attacks, each with a TN of 7, each turn. They're almost certainly not going to make it, and then they have to resist four 10S attacks with whatever combat pool is left. The only problem is putting 6 recoil compensation on an SMG.


If you're truly an evil person, you'd convince your GM that a troll can wield an assault rifle one-handed, then use the dual-wield rules to fire a pair of those every turn. That's how you win shadowrun.

Mostly the weird way the shots are treated. 2x2xSA=4x9M base, which depending on your attacking ability, the armor of the target, and the target's combat pool and dodge TN can end up being better than 2x9M with a better TN or 2x12S. Also you can theoretically hit four targets, something you can't otherwise do without FA or AoE weapons, though your TN becomes ridiculous.

The other big use case is doing something like 2xSuper Warhawk or other beefy SS gun. One shot with each hand per pass keeps you acting.

~J

2 weapons can be quickdrawn and fired. This is stated in BBB.107 under Quickdraw.

I may be misunderstanding you, but yes one gun needs 2 points of RC and the other needs at least one point of RC and shot last not to have RC penalties. It would be simpler to track if both guns had RC2.

Not in the same action, but definitely in the same phase.

I disagree if the shooter is aiming both weapons at the same target. Aiming at 2 targets, I could see being arguable.

Why not? Are both of these not simple actions? I did not specifically see Holstering a weapon, but readying a weapon (drawing it from a holster) is a simpe action. It seems like putting it back would be about the same. I could see some holsters making it harder to do as a simple action, but just a blanket statement saying it cannot be done seems wrong.

Not without RC. Any uncompensated recoil gets transferred to the other hand.

Something like Personalized/Custom Grip, whatever it is called, from Cannon Comp. would offset this, as well as an underbarrel weight.

You are correct. I should have read the whole paragraph. There's your answer, Everfast. Quickdraw is legit with two weapons.

As long as his action is:
aim
aim
without firing the other gun, yes. If he's aiming the right gun while firing the left gun, or if he aims the right gun then fires the left gun, then fires the right gun, he gets no benefit from aiming.

Take aim specifies you may do so with a weapon. There is no exception written that you may take aim with two weapons, or take two take aim actions at the same time. A strict reading of the rules would seem to indicate aiming two weapons simultaneously is not legitimate. However, most GMs won't enforce that, and I don't know that that was the intention of the writers. (Yes, when people ask for rules interpretations, I am anal retentive. When people ask me to GM, I am very liberal. I don't mind people using the rules well, as long as they understand the conflicts other people might see there.)

1) Because he was holstering and shooting in the same action. In other words, he had two available simple actions, and those simple actions were (shoot & aim) and (holster & shoot). Neither of those are legitimate combinations.

2) The rules are clear that if he takes any other action, including a free action, at the same time, the benefits for aiming are lost. So even if you accept that he can holster and fire in the same SA, the act of holstering eliminates the benefits of the previous take aim action (just like you can't take aim THEN call a shot, calling a shot must precede taking aim or the bonus for aiming is lost).

Nope. The whole rules apply only if you fire BOTH weapons with ONE single action. But not, if you first fire one weapon once (first action) and then the other weapon once (second action). This also makes sense, it's "fire and forget" (the weapon).

In the order you describe, I will agree. But in the original scenario, where actions were listed only to the extent to describe each hand, I can see the sequence playing out where it would be legel.

Shoot the first gun
Aim the second gun
Shoot the second gun
Holster the first gun

It gets complicated when dual weilding, like how you pointed out the silly (to me) sequence of needing to declare a called shot before taking aim. It all happens at about the same time.

Can you point me to this rule?

I am going by SR3.112 under Using a Second Firearm where Characters can use two pistol - or SMG - class weapons, one in each hand. <snip stuff about no Ambidexterity and targeting aids> Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon. I do not see anything in the whole rule about breaking it down to actions to avoid recoil.

Right! I got the Savalette Guardian on the brain.

Though I agree that your interpretation is probably correct Nezumi, I don't think I'd play a 2-gunner under those rules. I like the concept because it gives you versatility given the situation (as some have mentioned before), but if your guns (actions) are joined at the hip pretty much, you lose a lot of that tactical flexibility. I can understand though, that if you start having to deal with 4 independant (GUN!) actions per phase (or pass, whatever) it could get a bit complex and slow play.

Sorry, my fault, was thinking of SR4, where the whole paragraph only applies to firing two weapons with the same action.

Small problem that would make a high strength, personalized grip or shock pad as effective as a laser sight on SA and SS weapons.

He can't do that. Dual-wield lets you fire twice with one Simple, it doesn't give you a Simple with each gun.

Not that unreasonable, IMO—consider that you have to have your target before you take aim. Zeroing in on someone's torso doesn't help you hit their head or hand.

Lorthazar: it isn't the same, since both can be used simultaneously. That said, I fail to see why returning a weapon to proper aim (or keeping it there) should be a problem before the weapon has been moved by the force of a shot in the first place.

~J

Okay, here's the problem. That recoil from the first shot has not truly effected the alignment of the weapon until the round is clear of the barrel. Meaning recoil does not hamper your alignment for that first shot. It does however throw off your aim for the second shot and beyond. Again just reality.

Your proposed ruling would make hitting a target easier but punish a firer for recoil from the first round, unless of couse they use recoil compensators. This in effect would make recoil compensation the qualitative equal to a Laser sight. Which any gun enthusiast will tell you is simply not the case.

Standard Rules: Colt Manhunter with Personalized grip at point blank range has a Target number of 3 (thanks to laser sight) for each of it's 2 possible shots in one round.

Your variation: Colt Manhunter with Personalized grip at point blank range has a target number of 2 and 3 for first and second shots in the same phase.

See the difference?

More realism would be attained by breaking full auto fire into 3 round bursts against targets and adding a bonus TN to hit someone for every three shots fired, but that is another story.

But as with any plan that leads to a maximum relevant recoil penalty of +1, that problem is cheap to fix.

Personalized grip or underbarrel weight: -1 to recoil and costs 200
Then it just comes down to whether you want the guns to fit very well into your hands or weigh a little bit more.

When I have an ambidextrous character dual wield, I usually end up putting 2, sometimes 3, shots into a target. If I am getting into high TNs due to different targets, I usually use a take aim action instead of wasting a high TN shot.

Even though the character can get off a bunch of shots every pass, their Combat Pool still needs divided between each shot and still does not refresh until the next Combat Turn. That is why it usually takes me 2 or 3 shots to put a target down.

I do not think so, but recoil builds up quickly. Good for using the suppressive fire rules.

One reason to have a gun in each hand is when loading different ammo. You might have one loaded with gel or flechette rounds, or you might be loading APDS and want to conserve your shots with that hard to get ammo. Another tactic is to use a BF capable gun in one hand to make the target burn through his Combat Pool, then using the weapon in the other hand to actually put them down. This is where a machine pistol for the BF weapon can be useful, and used with a HP using the same single skill.

Except

You are right, of course. It took me a little while to find it because it is not part of the 2 weapon ranged combat rules, which did expand acceptable weapons to pistol sized and light crossbows. But the troll rule is CC.99, under Using Two-Handed Firearms. It actually says any character may do so, but only trolls avoid a +2 modifier.

Reading and combining all these rules, it seems to me that any character, other than a dwarf if using the dwarf large weapon rules on CC.98, does not need ambidexterity to fire 2 weapons at the same time, it just imposes a bunch of modifiers. +2 for using a second firearm, +2 for using a rifle sized weapon or larger, plus the normal recoil from each weapon modifiers, +2 per target modifiers and normal modifiers.

Using all these rules, Add in the Suppressive Fire rule, which allows the attacker to ignore most of these modifiers. The only modifiers that apply are attacker's wounds, targets cover, +2 modifier for suppressive fire, and the attacker may not use Combat Pool, (CC.107.) Since the attack only does base damage, you want to have that base damage be as much as possible, hence using the biggest gun capable of FA possible.

I love it when players do this. They never realise (until too late) that damage to the lower clips aperture will prevent them loading when you switch the clip over. Or just how easy it is to damage said aperture during combat...