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> Innate spell - broken?, Sunstaining.. drain... etc.
FriendoftheDork
post Oct 6 2007, 02:16 AM
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Hey the mage in my group asked if he could summon a spirit of man, and ask it to cast a spell on him (such as improved reflexes), then sustain it. Thus instead of asking it to sustain a spell you cast yourself (which it will only do for a few rounds), you get it to sustain it's own spell (which it can do as long as it's not disrupted, at least until dusk or dawn.

Or you could get it to cast fireballs on your enemies - even if it's a favor per ball, it still means the mage doesen't need to soak the 8 damage or something.

So is this allowed or have we misread something?
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Jaid
post Oct 6 2007, 03:31 AM
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it is allowed. it has been suggested that a service be expended at sunrise and sunset, but still allowed.

it is worth noting that the spirit in question will be at -2 while it is sustaining the spell, and of course it has to have the spell as an innate spell in the first place, but otherwise it works (note: passing through a ward will still likely disrupt the spell, which will cost another service to get the spirit to replace it in addition to getting the spirit to use a metaplanar shortcut, which will cost a service also iirc).

casting fireball specifically would be an individual service per fireball. "burn my enemies" would, however, be a single service, which the spirit would most likely accomplish using the fireball spell (provided it's a spirit of man, that is) =P
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FriendoftheDork
post Oct 6 2007, 04:06 AM
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Alright. Then I don't understand that using a spirit to sustain YOUR spell counts as a service for every (sprit force) combat turns, while if you use it to cast the spell for you, it can sustain that spell for the whole day! Doesen't that seem weird to you?

Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?
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Fortune
post Oct 6 2007, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?

Not unless he Bonds them. You can only have one non-Bonded Spirit at any one time, and those on Remote Service count towards that limit of one.
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DTFarstar
post Oct 6 2007, 04:46 AM
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Well, remember, a spirit can sustain any spell of the correct category that you cast for Force combat rounds, however when you use a service to get it to cast the spell you are limited to the one or two spells you give it, it takes a -2, it is limited by its own casting pool, and the spirit chooses the force, which would presumably usually be it's force or force -1. You can't drop the spell immediately in the face of magical inspection(Lone Star probably doesn't approve of people running around with Combat Sense and/or Improved Reflexes working on them all the time) or if you notice a ward and are about to pass through it, but need to drop your spell. It is alot of little stuff, but basically you trade versatility for ease of use.

Chris
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 6 2007, 04:53 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Not unless he Bonds them. You can only have one non-Bonded Spirit at any one time, and those on Remote Service count towards that limit of one.

…this is one of the improvements over previous editions. The difficulty, associated risks, and costs of binding tend to further limit the number of spirits a mage runs around with “on call� in addition to Charisma.

Back then you failed to conjure an elemental it didn’t show. A mage blows a binding test in 4th Ed and the spirit will most likely attack him. I have seen very few mages with more than two spirits whereas in previous editions just about every mage had up to his or her full Charisma rating in elementals and watchers.

…bit of a derail but somewhat related: Where I think things fall down is in allowing spirits to sustain Health spells. In previous editions only Elementals could aid and sustain spellcasting and no elemental covered the Health category.
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Wasabi
post Oct 6 2007, 06:38 AM
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Also keep in mind a spirit can only affect non-astral things while manifested. This means a burst from an Ares Alpha can put a hurting on them. After all, they get free armor but are not actually IMMUNE to bullets...
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Tarantula
post Oct 6 2007, 06:41 AM
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Very good point kyoto kid. Hermetics have spirits of man as their health spirit too. That means conjure one, and have it heal you for every damage you take, it eats the drain. Sounds good to me.
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Cain
post Oct 6 2007, 07:52 AM
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DT: Actually, a clever summoner will specify the minimum force required for the Innate Spell. You can order a spirit to overcast a spell, even.

KK: In my experience, I've yet to see anyone not bind their max in spirits. In fact, the only change from 3rd to 4th I've seen in this regard is that now, the Watcher Attack Pack strategy is open to everyone, not just Hermetics. Granted, now that Watchers are caped at Force 1, it's not as scary as it was before. However, 5 watchers plus 5 other spirits plus an Ally and maybe a projecting mage adds up in a hurry.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 6 2007, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Alright. Then I don't understand that using a spirit to sustain YOUR spell counts as a service for every (sprit force) combat turns, while if you use it to cast the spell for you, it can sustain that spell for the whole day! Doesen't that seem weird to you?


Well, any spirit can sustain a spell for a brief period of time. But yeah, that service sucks ass. All the spell sustaining crap was alot more interesting when sustaining a single spell made you about 1/3 as effective. In 4th edition you are 99% of the time better off just sustaining the spell your own damn self and then periodically calling on your spirit to Aid Sorcery to make up the penalties (and then some).

QUOTE
Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?


Well, you have to wait for the spirit to vanish before you summon a new spirit. So the first spirit would go and attack Mr. X until it was disrupted, it succeeded, or the day ran out. Then you could summon a new one. And repeat the process until you are exhausted.

Mr. X never has to fight more than one spirit at a time, but if you never get or stay exhausted (example: you are a vampire or some other regenerating conjurer), then you can keep Mr. X fighting one spirit at a time every few combat rounds until he dies or fights his way to you. Makes fighting an entrenched regenerating magician very bad news, and virtual suicide for anyone without a combat team at their back.

-Frank
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DTFarstar
post Oct 6 2007, 03:23 PM
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And this is why Hedge Witches are DANGEROUS. Channeling + Invoking + Plant Spirit = bad freaking news.

Chris
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mfb
post Oct 6 2007, 03:32 PM
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added bonus: the irony of becoming a literal hedge witch by channeling a plant spirit.
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FriendoftheDork
post Oct 6 2007, 04:44 PM
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Ok, ty for responses guys :)
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 6 2007, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Wasabi)
Also keep in mind a spirit can only affect non-astral things while manifested. This means a burst from an Ares Alpha can put a hurting on them. After all, they get free armor but are not actually IMMUNE to bullets...

...however, isn't the base DV of the weapon applied and not without modifiers from burst or autofire? I thought the only firearm (other a Panther assault cannon) with a decent chance against a spirit was a PJSS loaded with EXEX.

@Tarantula: My concern wasn't so much healing spells (which still need to overcome wound effect and implants) but the casting and sustaining of Increase Attribute spells. Had a player totally abuse this in the last campaign I ran to summon and bind even more powerful spirits. Ended up implementing a houserule that a spirit will refuse to aid in the summoning or binding of another spirit in any way. If forced to do it the spirit gets another resistance check which, should the mage fail to counter, allows the the spirit to go free.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 6 2007, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (KK)
...however, isn't the base DV of the weapon applied and not without modifiers from burst or autofire? I thought the only firearm (other a Panther assault cannon) with a decent chance against a spirit was a PJSS loaded with EXEX.


APDS is actually the way to go. If you bust out an Ares Alpha with APDS and there's a Force 7 Spirit in your way, then you called shot for +4 DV need to get precisely 1 net hit to both strike your target and punch through the ItNW. I sugest wide bursting at that point just to make yourself more likely to hit. The spirit is already soaking 11+ DV on a simple action if your attack hits at all. But if the spirit doesn't see you or is occupied in melee or is otherwise very easy to hit, then sure go for the long narrow burst - it gets 16 dice to soak with but it's still not going to like soaking 16+ Physical Damage.

-Frank
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 6 2007, 06:17 PM
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...OK,let me see if I have this right.

The Spirit has an effective 14 armour due to it's "immunity" to normal weapons.

You use (if you can get it) APDS which drops the spirit's armour by -4 to 10. That part I get.

An Alpha's base DV is 7 which is still 3 under the spirits armour without the called shot.

...so far so good but here's where I am at a bit of a loss...

A called shot drops your DP by the target's Armour. For attacking the spirit is that -7 or is it -14 from your DP to hit (as the armour against normal weapons is doubled)?

So here's Markova (alas #17) with a total 15 DP. If indeed the Spirit's hardened armour total subtracts from her pool she has only 1 die to attack with. Not very good odds.

Now granted a force 7 spirit is pretty extreme. As a PC the toughest I have seen are in the force 5 - 6 range which, with a PJSS and EXEX (pre FAQ), were hittable without needing to resort to a called shot.
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DTFarstar
post Oct 6 2007, 06:18 PM
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I had the players roll to recruit an NPC for a job and the player got an insane number of successes(he's a mini-social adept and he used his 6 freaking edge on the roll too, ended up with like 12 successes for it) so since they were looking for a combat monster I made a 400 BP one up really quick, a Mr. Lucky the Gunner type character with a dice pool of 15 in automatics. He had been forewarned against possible magical backup, and when the mage ordered his F6 earth spirit to come after the other two members of the team, they yelled for help and he rolled around the corner, popped out a clip of gel, slapped in a clip of APDS and let loose with his gyroharness mounted white knight.(snuck harness and weapon in luggage through front door, went to the restroom, hacker cut the cameras while he loaded up and they took the freaking elevator to this placee.) A long narrow burst with APDS, I think the final damage total was like 14P or so the spirit had to soak. It was not happy, another burst later and it was dead. Just requires the right equipment.

Chris
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 6 2007, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...OK,let me see if I have this right.

Nope.

QUOTE
The Spirit has an effective 14 armour due to it's "immunity" to normal weapons.

You use (if you can get it) APDS which drops the spirit's armour by -4 to 10.  That part I get.


Actually, the Ares Alpha comes with a -1 AP, so it drops it down to 9.

QUOTE
An Alpha's base DV is 7 which is still 3 under the spirits armour without the called shot.


It's actually 6, but it'll be 7 as soon as you get even a single hit, which you will also need to not miss, so good enough.

QUOTE
...so far so good but here's where I am at a bit of a loss...

A called shot drops your DP by the target's Armour.  For attacking the spirit is that -7 or is it -14 from your DP to hit (as the armour against normal weapons is doubled)? 


You could do that, but you should just let the spirit have its armor. You're going to be dropping a Called Shot to increase your DV. Take a -4 on your to-hit and get +4 DV. That pops you up to a cool 11+ DV, which is well past the 9 ponts of armor and you splat them good.

QUOTE
Now granted a force 7 spirit is pretty extreme.  As a PC the toughest I have seen are in the force 5 - 6 range which, with a PJSS and EXEX (pre FAQ), were hittable without needing to resort to a called shot.


Absolutely. That's why I used it as an example. A Force 7 spirit is the kind of thig you run into when making runs against a Toxic Mage in a radiation zone, the Lama-owned slave plantations of Tibet, the Alice Spring termite mounds, or other off-the-hook magical threat zones. Since an out-of-the-box character can knock one of those over with an Ares Alpha and some AP rounds anyway, I'm a little dubious of most of the "OMG Spirits are Unstoppable" talk I get.

Characters in a game I run actually took down a Force 11 Great Form (put up by the Nagaraja), although two of the characters ended up having to spend permanent Edge to stay alive.

-Frank
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 6 2007, 06:34 PM
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...@DTFarstar: Yeah, but that was an NPC who doesn't have to really worry about the availability cap at Chargen, or for that matter, availability at all. I'm looking at a PC mundane spirit killer. So far the best I could come up with is one who uses a PJSS with EXEX, which under the FAQ ruling is sufficient to disrupt a force 5 or lower spirit. Yeah a Walther 2100 with EXEX can basically do the same job but the PJSS is much more stylin plus harder to soak the damage down from as (with EXEX) it starts at 10DV. The only thing better for dishing out big D is a Panther XXL (still 10 DV but a whopping -5 AP) or a shoulder launched rocket/missile.

[edit]

@ FrankTrollman: However, as I mention above an "out of the box" character cannot get APDS unless she has a really generous Johnson (availbility of 16F). The best ammo you can get at Chargen by the rules is EXEX.

I did just re-read the rules regarding the called shot option again and I stand corrected on the modifier (Targeting a vital area). I was under the impression you always had to bypass the target's armour value. Admittedly, haven't played 4E enough yet or I'd be having Markova #18 do this a lot more.

So then for my character with the PJSS, he could disrupt a force 7 (without APDS):

PJSS 9DV/-1AP + EXEX +1DV/-1AP, + Called Shot +4DV/-4 to DP (16 base) which drops the force 7 spirit's armour to 12 against a 14DV. And he still has 12 dice in his pool.

Now I think I have it. :grinbig:
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Jaid
post Oct 6 2007, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...@DTFarstar: Yeah, but that was an NPC who doesn't have to really worry about the availability cap at Chargen, or for that matter, availability at all. I'm looking at a PC mundane spirit killer. So far the best I could come up with is one who uses a PJSS with EXEX, which under the FAQ ruling is sufficient to disrupt a force 5 or lower spirit. Yeah a Walther 200 with EXEX can basically do the same job but the PJSS is much more stylin plus harder to soak the damage down from as (with EXEX) it starts at 10DV. The only thing better for dishing out big D is a Panther XXL (still 10 DV but a whopping -5 AP) or a shoulder launched rocket/missile.

and the trollbow... don't forget the trollbow =P

(also depending on GM, the defiance taser is great for disrupting spirits)

also various grenades.

and other stuff too, iirc =P
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 6 2007, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
and the trollbow... don't forget the trollbow =P

also various grenades.

...only thing is he is a Dwarf with a grudge against spirits. :grinbig:

Thought about grenades though they have a fixed DV. With a PJSS (or Panther XXL) you can stage up the DV with net hits. The only way to augment grenade damage is to catch the spirit in a confined area and if it's beating on a couple of your buddies, they will take the damage too.
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DTFarstar
post Oct 6 2007, 07:33 PM
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*shrug* White Knight is avail 12F, Gyro - Stabilization is 7, It has a Gas Vent 5 on it already, I just gave him APDS because it was the best and this wasn't their first run, but even Ex-Ex makes the White Knight do 7 with -2 AP, the net hit needed to hit makes you ignore hardened armor of 10 or more, and with that set-up you can full narrow burst for an extra *9* and not take any recoil. So, Force 9 spirits are ok out of the box.

Chris
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 6 2007, 07:46 PM
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...but a force 9 would have 18 armour the -2AP drops that to 16 so you need 10 net hits (6 if you use the called shot which with a reduced DP are not all that easy to get).

Frank, am I that correct that you double the spirit's armour before applying the weapon's AP modifier?
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 6 2007, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...but a force 9 would have 18 armour the -2AP drops that to 16 so you need 10 net hits (6 if you use the called shot which with a reduced DP are not all that easy to get).

Frank, am I that correct that you double the spirit's armour before applying the weapon's AP modifier?

Yep. Of course, by the time you are going up against the world's most powerful seven-headed Naga's Force 11 Great Form Storm Serpent, you're packing a high powered rifle with APDS. That means that you're pulling 12P (after a called shot) at -7 AP. You need 4 net hits to blow a hole in it, but that's quite achievable by 4 IP street sam. You just go through a lot of ammunition before it goes down. Which considering that you're using an anti-vehicle weapon is an impressive feat in and of itself.

-Frank
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FriendoftheDork
post Oct 6 2007, 08:09 PM
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Hmm, I'm not even sure you SHOULD be able to call shot a spirit for extra damage - after all even in physical form a fire elemental might not have ekstra vulnerable areas to aim for...

But otherwise, APDS does the trick.
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