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FriendoftheDork
Hey the mage in my group asked if he could summon a spirit of man, and ask it to cast a spell on him (such as improved reflexes), then sustain it. Thus instead of asking it to sustain a spell you cast yourself (which it will only do for a few rounds), you get it to sustain it's own spell (which it can do as long as it's not disrupted, at least until dusk or dawn.

Or you could get it to cast fireballs on your enemies - even if it's a favor per ball, it still means the mage doesen't need to soak the 8 damage or something.

So is this allowed or have we misread something?
Jaid
it is allowed. it has been suggested that a service be expended at sunrise and sunset, but still allowed.

it is worth noting that the spirit in question will be at -2 while it is sustaining the spell, and of course it has to have the spell as an innate spell in the first place, but otherwise it works (note: passing through a ward will still likely disrupt the spell, which will cost another service to get the spirit to replace it in addition to getting the spirit to use a metaplanar shortcut, which will cost a service also iirc).

casting fireball specifically would be an individual service per fireball. "burn my enemies" would, however, be a single service, which the spirit would most likely accomplish using the fireball spell (provided it's a spirit of man, that is) =P
FriendoftheDork
Alright. Then I don't understand that using a spirit to sustain YOUR spell counts as a service for every (sprit force) combat turns, while if you use it to cast the spell for you, it can sustain that spell for the whole day! Doesen't that seem weird to you?

Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?
Fortune
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?

Not unless he Bonds them. You can only have one non-Bonded Spirit at any one time, and those on Remote Service count towards that limit of one.
DTFarstar
Well, remember, a spirit can sustain any spell of the correct category that you cast for Force combat rounds, however when you use a service to get it to cast the spell you are limited to the one or two spells you give it, it takes a -2, it is limited by its own casting pool, and the spirit chooses the force, which would presumably usually be it's force or force -1. You can't drop the spell immediately in the face of magical inspection(Lone Star probably doesn't approve of people running around with Combat Sense and/or Improved Reflexes working on them all the time) or if you notice a ward and are about to pass through it, but need to drop your spell. It is alot of little stuff, but basically you trade versatility for ease of use.

Chris
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Fortune)
Not unless he Bonds them. You can only have one non-Bonded Spirit at any one time, and those on Remote Service count towards that limit of one.

…this is one of the improvements over previous editions. The difficulty, associated risks, and costs of binding tend to further limit the number of spirits a mage runs around with “on call? in addition to Charisma.

Back then you failed to conjure an elemental it didn’t show. A mage blows a binding test in 4th Ed and the spirit will most likely attack him. I have seen very few mages with more than two spirits whereas in previous editions just about every mage had up to his or her full Charisma rating in elementals and watchers.

…bit of a derail but somewhat related: Where I think things fall down is in allowing spirits to sustain Health spells. In previous editions only Elementals could aid and sustain spellcasting and no elemental covered the Health category.
Wasabi
Also keep in mind a spirit can only affect non-astral things while manifested. This means a burst from an Ares Alpha can put a hurting on them. After all, they get free armor but are not actually IMMUNE to bullets...
Tarantula
Very good point kyoto kid. Hermetics have spirits of man as their health spirit too. That means conjure one, and have it heal you for every damage you take, it eats the drain. Sounds good to me.
Cain
DT: Actually, a clever summoner will specify the minimum force required for the Innate Spell. You can order a spirit to overcast a spell, even.

KK: In my experience, I've yet to see anyone not bind their max in spirits. In fact, the only change from 3rd to 4th I've seen in this regard is that now, the Watcher Attack Pack strategy is open to everyone, not just Hermetics. Granted, now that Watchers are caped at Force 1, it's not as scary as it was before. However, 5 watchers plus 5 other spirits plus an Ally and maybe a projecting mage adds up in a hurry.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Alright. Then I don't understand that using a spirit to sustain YOUR spell counts as a service for every (sprit force) combat turns, while if you use it to cast the spell for you, it can sustain that spell for the whole day! Doesen't that seem weird to you?


Well, any spirit can sustain a spell for a brief period of time. But yeah, that service sucks ass. All the spell sustaining crap was alot more interesting when sustaining a single spell made you about 1/3 as effective. In 4th edition you are 99% of the time better off just sustaining the spell your own damn self and then periodically calling on your spirit to Aid Sorcery to make up the penalties (and then some).

QUOTE
Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?


Well, you have to wait for the spirit to vanish before you summon a new spirit. So the first spirit would go and attack Mr. X until it was disrupted, it succeeded, or the day ran out. Then you could summon a new one. And repeat the process until you are exhausted.

Mr. X never has to fight more than one spirit at a time, but if you never get or stay exhausted (example: you are a vampire or some other regenerating conjurer), then you can keep Mr. X fighting one spirit at a time every few combat rounds until he dies or fights his way to you. Makes fighting an entrenched regenerating magician very bad news, and virtual suicide for anyone without a combat team at their back.

-Frank
DTFarstar
And this is why Hedge Witches are DANGEROUS. Channeling + Invoking + Plant Spirit = bad freaking news.

Chris
mfb
added bonus: the irony of becoming a literal hedge witch by channeling a plant spirit.
FriendoftheDork
Ok, ty for responses guys smile.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Wasabi)
Also keep in mind a spirit can only affect non-astral things while manifested. This means a burst from an Ares Alpha can put a hurting on them. After all, they get free armor but are not actually IMMUNE to bullets...

...however, isn't the base DV of the weapon applied and not without modifiers from burst or autofire? I thought the only firearm (other a Panther assault cannon) with a decent chance against a spirit was a PJSS loaded with EXEX.

@Tarantula: My concern wasn't so much healing spells (which still need to overcome wound effect and implants) but the casting and sustaining of Increase Attribute spells. Had a player totally abuse this in the last campaign I ran to summon and bind even more powerful spirits. Ended up implementing a houserule that a spirit will refuse to aid in the summoning or binding of another spirit in any way. If forced to do it the spirit gets another resistance check which, should the mage fail to counter, allows the the spirit to go free.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (KK)
...however, isn't the base DV of the weapon applied and not without modifiers from burst or autofire? I thought the only firearm (other a Panther assault cannon) with a decent chance against a spirit was a PJSS loaded with EXEX.


APDS is actually the way to go. If you bust out an Ares Alpha with APDS and there's a Force 7 Spirit in your way, then you called shot for +4 DV need to get precisely 1 net hit to both strike your target and punch through the ItNW. I sugest wide bursting at that point just to make yourself more likely to hit. The spirit is already soaking 11+ DV on a simple action if your attack hits at all. But if the spirit doesn't see you or is occupied in melee or is otherwise very easy to hit, then sure go for the long narrow burst - it gets 16 dice to soak with but it's still not going to like soaking 16+ Physical Damage.

-Frank
Kyoto Kid
...OK,let me see if I have this right.

The Spirit has an effective 14 armour due to it's "immunity" to normal weapons.

You use (if you can get it) APDS which drops the spirit's armour by -4 to 10. That part I get.

An Alpha's base DV is 7 which is still 3 under the spirits armour without the called shot.

...so far so good but here's where I am at a bit of a loss...

A called shot drops your DP by the target's Armour. For attacking the spirit is that -7 or is it -14 from your DP to hit (as the armour against normal weapons is doubled)?

So here's Markova (alas #17) with a total 15 DP. If indeed the Spirit's hardened armour total subtracts from her pool she has only 1 die to attack with. Not very good odds.

Now granted a force 7 spirit is pretty extreme. As a PC the toughest I have seen are in the force 5 - 6 range which, with a PJSS and EXEX (pre FAQ), were hittable without needing to resort to a called shot.
DTFarstar
I had the players roll to recruit an NPC for a job and the player got an insane number of successes(he's a mini-social adept and he used his 6 freaking edge on the roll too, ended up with like 12 successes for it) so since they were looking for a combat monster I made a 400 BP one up really quick, a Mr. Lucky the Gunner type character with a dice pool of 15 in automatics. He had been forewarned against possible magical backup, and when the mage ordered his F6 earth spirit to come after the other two members of the team, they yelled for help and he rolled around the corner, popped out a clip of gel, slapped in a clip of APDS and let loose with his gyroharness mounted white knight.(snuck harness and weapon in luggage through front door, went to the restroom, hacker cut the cameras while he loaded up and they took the freaking elevator to this placee.) A long narrow burst with APDS, I think the final damage total was like 14P or so the spirit had to soak. It was not happy, another burst later and it was dead. Just requires the right equipment.

Chris
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...OK,let me see if I have this right.

Nope.

QUOTE
The Spirit has an effective 14 armour due to it's "immunity" to normal weapons.

You use (if you can get it) APDS which drops the spirit's armour by -4 to 10.  That part I get.


Actually, the Ares Alpha comes with a -1 AP, so it drops it down to 9.

QUOTE
An Alpha's base DV is 7 which is still 3 under the spirits armour without the called shot.


It's actually 6, but it'll be 7 as soon as you get even a single hit, which you will also need to not miss, so good enough.

QUOTE
...so far so good but here's where I am at a bit of a loss...

A called shot drops your DP by the target's Armour.  For attacking the spirit is that -7 or is it -14 from your DP to hit (as the armour against normal weapons is doubled)? 


You could do that, but you should just let the spirit have its armor. You're going to be dropping a Called Shot to increase your DV. Take a -4 on your to-hit and get +4 DV. That pops you up to a cool 11+ DV, which is well past the 9 ponts of armor and you splat them good.

QUOTE
Now granted a force 7 spirit is pretty extreme.  As a PC the toughest I have seen are in the force 5 - 6 range which, with a PJSS and EXEX (pre FAQ), were hittable without needing to resort to a called shot.


Absolutely. That's why I used it as an example. A Force 7 spirit is the kind of thig you run into when making runs against a Toxic Mage in a radiation zone, the Lama-owned slave plantations of Tibet, the Alice Spring termite mounds, or other off-the-hook magical threat zones. Since an out-of-the-box character can knock one of those over with an Ares Alpha and some AP rounds anyway, I'm a little dubious of most of the "OMG Spirits are Unstoppable" talk I get.

Characters in a game I run actually took down a Force 11 Great Form (put up by the Nagaraja), although two of the characters ended up having to spend permanent Edge to stay alive.

-Frank
Kyoto Kid
...@DTFarstar: Yeah, but that was an NPC who doesn't have to really worry about the availability cap at Chargen, or for that matter, availability at all. I'm looking at a PC mundane spirit killer. So far the best I could come up with is one who uses a PJSS with EXEX, which under the FAQ ruling is sufficient to disrupt a force 5 or lower spirit. Yeah a Walther 2100 with EXEX can basically do the same job but the PJSS is much more stylin plus harder to soak the damage down from as (with EXEX) it starts at 10DV. The only thing better for dishing out big D is a Panther XXL (still 10 DV but a whopping -5 AP) or a shoulder launched rocket/missile.

[edit]

@ FrankTrollman: However, as I mention above an "out of the box" character cannot get APDS unless she has a really generous Johnson (availbility of 16F). The best ammo you can get at Chargen by the rules is EXEX.

I did just re-read the rules regarding the called shot option again and I stand corrected on the modifier (Targeting a vital area). I was under the impression you always had to bypass the target's armour value. Admittedly, haven't played 4E enough yet or I'd be having Markova #18 do this a lot more.

So then for my character with the PJSS, he could disrupt a force 7 (without APDS):

PJSS 9DV/-1AP + EXEX +1DV/-1AP, + Called Shot +4DV/-4 to DP (16 base) which drops the force 7 spirit's armour to 12 against a 14DV. And he still has 12 dice in his pool.

Now I think I have it. grinbig.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...@DTFarstar: Yeah, but that was an NPC who doesn't have to really worry about the availability cap at Chargen, or for that matter, availability at all. I'm looking at a PC mundane spirit killer. So far the best I could come up with is one who uses a PJSS with EXEX, which under the FAQ ruling is sufficient to disrupt a force 5 or lower spirit. Yeah a Walther 200 with EXEX can basically do the same job but the PJSS is much more stylin plus harder to soak the damage down from as (with EXEX) it starts at 10DV. The only thing better for dishing out big D is a Panther XXL (still 10 DV but a whopping -5 AP) or a shoulder launched rocket/missile.

and the trollbow... don't forget the trollbow =P

(also depending on GM, the defiance taser is great for disrupting spirits)

also various grenades.

and other stuff too, iirc =P
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Jaid)
and the trollbow... don't forget the trollbow =P

also various grenades.

...only thing is he is a Dwarf with a grudge against spirits. grinbig.gif

Thought about grenades though they have a fixed DV. With a PJSS (or Panther XXL) you can stage up the DV with net hits. The only way to augment grenade damage is to catch the spirit in a confined area and if it's beating on a couple of your buddies, they will take the damage too.
DTFarstar
*shrug* White Knight is avail 12F, Gyro - Stabilization is 7, It has a Gas Vent 5 on it already, I just gave him APDS because it was the best and this wasn't their first run, but even Ex-Ex makes the White Knight do 7 with -2 AP, the net hit needed to hit makes you ignore hardened armor of 10 or more, and with that set-up you can full narrow burst for an extra *9* and not take any recoil. So, Force 9 spirits are ok out of the box.

Chris
Kyoto Kid
...but a force 9 would have 18 armour the -2AP drops that to 16 so you need 10 net hits (6 if you use the called shot which with a reduced DP are not all that easy to get).

Frank, am I that correct that you double the spirit's armour before applying the weapon's AP modifier?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...but a force 9 would have 18 armour the -2AP drops that to 16 so you need 10 net hits (6 if you use the called shot which with a reduced DP are not all that easy to get).

Frank, am I that correct that you double the spirit's armour before applying the weapon's AP modifier?

Yep. Of course, by the time you are going up against the world's most powerful seven-headed Naga's Force 11 Great Form Storm Serpent, you're packing a high powered rifle with APDS. That means that you're pulling 12P (after a called shot) at -7 AP. You need 4 net hits to blow a hole in it, but that's quite achievable by 4 IP street sam. You just go through a lot of ammunition before it goes down. Which considering that you're using an anti-vehicle weapon is an impressive feat in and of itself.

-Frank
FriendoftheDork
Hmm, I'm not even sure you SHOULD be able to call shot a spirit for extra damage - after all even in physical form a fire elemental might not have ekstra vulnerable areas to aim for...

But otherwise, APDS does the trick.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 6 2007, 02:46 PM)
...but a force 9 would have 18 armour the -2AP drops that to 16 so you need 10 net hits (6 if you use the called shot which with a reduced DP are not all that easy to get).

Frank, am I that correct that you double the spirit's armour before applying the weapon's AP modifier?

Yep. Of course, by the time you are going up against the world's most powerful seven-headed Naga's Force 11 Great Form Storm Serpent, you're packing a high powered rifle with APDS. That means that you're pulling 12P (after a called shot) at -7 AP. You need 4 net hits to blow a hole in it, but that's quite achievable by 4 IP street sam. You just go through a lot of ammunition before it goes down. Which considering that you're using an anti-vehicle weapon is an impressive feat in and of itself.

-Frank

...ahh, the Ranger Arms SM-4. It is on the character's "X-mas wish list".

Of course, who knows what kind of neat nasty bang bangs will show up in Arsenal. grinbig.gif
DTFarstar
Where does it say that narrow burst doesn't effect the DV for the purpose of ignoring INW? I mean, if it doesn't then I really need to reconsider alot of mine and my players anti-spirit tactics.

Chris
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
Where does it say that narrow burst doesn't effect the DV for the purpose of ignoring INW? I mean, if it doesn't then I really need to reconsider alot of mine and my players anti-spirit tactics.

Chris

Page 143, Narrow Bursts.

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 142)
Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.


-Frank
DTFarstar
Well, crap, I completely missed that. Multiple times. Huh. Well, that changes a LOT in my games. Suddenly spirits are alot more dangerous. Also, I don't really understand the idea behind it.

Chris
Jaid
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
Well, crap, I completely missed that. Multiple times. Huh. Well, that changes a LOT in my games. Suddenly spirits are alot more dangerous. Also, I don't really understand the idea behind it.

Chris

it's fairly simple.

if one bullet will just bounce off the armor, why would 5 bullets suddenly be able to penetrate?
kzt
QUOTE (Jaid)
if one bullet will just bounce off the armor, why would 5 bullets suddenly be able to penetrate?

In the real world there are reasons why this would sometimes work, but SR guns have tenuous links to the real world.
Glyph
For hardened armor, use wide bursts, which make the defender lose dice, thus increasing your net hits (and thus DV).
DTFarstar
*nods at kzt* especially with explosive or ex-ex rounds. Huh...

Anyway, my thinking is if this is supposed to be treated like "if one bullet doesn't penetrate then why would the others?" then each bullet should be truly treated seperately. So, a successful long burst would make someone resist 6P 6 times. If you are just incrementally adding to the DV then I personally saw that as a tight enough grouping to add to the penetrating power of the first or do more damage to already traumatized(and in the case of P damage maybe not existing tissue.) I guess I have a visualization and logic difference with the designers at this point.

Chris
kzt
The mechanics used by HERO for autfire have some advantages (every 2 under the required to-hit is another hit, each facing the full defense) but I can't think of a good way to apply them using SR's 'hits add to DV' approach.
Ophis
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Hmm, I'm not even sure you SHOULD be able to call shot a spirit for extra damage - after all even in physical form a fire elemental might not have ekstra vulnerable areas to aim for...

But otherwise, APDS does the trick.

As I explained it to a player earlier this week...

The trick with calling shot on spirits is believing strongly enough that a bullet between the eyes will hurt them more. I guess I'm just a fan of the old willpower to hurt spirits stuff from 2nd. Also given the range of spirits available these days some will have vital organs (like Fae) or at least a solid impersonation of them.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Ophis)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 6 2007, 09:09 PM)
Hmm, I'm not even sure you SHOULD be able to call shot a spirit for extra damage - after all even in physical form a fire elemental might not have ekstra vulnerable areas to aim for...

But otherwise, APDS does the trick.

As I explained it to a player earlier this week...

The trick with calling shot on spirits is believing strongly enough that a bullet between the eyes will hurt them more. I guess I'm just a fan of the old willpower to hurt spirits stuff from 2nd. Also given the range of spirits available these days some will have vital organs (like Fae) or at least a solid impersonation of them.

The thing is, I'm not sure I WANT the PCs being able to take down spirits with hold out pistols (at least not the tougher ones).

They still have the option to attack them with willpower per the rules in Street Magic. Some called shot placebo doesen't work for me.

I don't really like tasers being good vs spirits either, but so far I haven't had to take a stand on it, as the party APDS's them anyway.
Jaid
if APDS working is not a problem, then what is your problem with tasers or called shots?

and anyways, called shots aren't going to help against powerful spirits if you're using a holdout... it will let you actually damage a reasonably powerful spirit (for example, a force 4), but it doesn't do much against a force 6 or a force 8 (would need 4 net hits against force 6, or 8 against the force 8 iirc) which is what i tend to think of when i hear people talking about "powerful" spirits.

not that force 4 is weak (indeed, compared to the average person they're quite powerful) but they aren't really going to be all that horribly rare either, whereas something like force 8 is imo much more likely to be considered a really powerful spirit...
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Jaid)
if APDS working is not a problem, then what is your problem with tasers or called shots?

and anyways, called shots aren't going to help against powerful spirits if you're using a holdout... it will let you actually damage a reasonably powerful spirit (for example, a force 4), but it doesn't do much against a force 6 or a force 8 (would need 4 net hits against force 6, or 8 against the force 8 iirc) which is what i tend to think of when i hear people talking about "powerful" spirits.

not that force 4 is weak (indeed, compared to the average person they're quite powerful) but they aren't really going to be all that horribly rare either, whereas something like force 8 is imo much more likely to be considered a really powerful spirit...

tasers... well they're dirt cheap and legal. Called shots just adds hits, and should be reserved for creatures with discernable autonomies (sp?).

If the party faces a force 8 spirits they should have to use more than just an AP with APDS (unless rolling really good, which they probably will).

Getting 5 hits is not hard for tough gunbunnies.
DTFarstar
I think a good example of a called shot on a spirit is when Wolf is trying to help Doc Raven fight that big golden kitty. Didn't matter if there were bones there or not, structurally it would be weaker.

Chris
FriendoftheDork
Well I allow adding net hits to damage. Any more I think is unbalanced.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Well I allow adding net hits to damage. Any more I think is unbalanced.

You are perhaps the first person who has claimed that street samurai being able to harm high force spirits is unbalanced.

-Frank
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 8 2007, 12:08 AM)
Well I allow adding net hits to damage. Any more I think is unbalanced.

You are perhaps the first person who has claimed that street samurai being able to harm high force spirits is unbalanced.

-Frank

A street samurai, with an ares alpha with apds, about 15-20 dice, is able to harm a force 8 spirit without having to resort to called shot or even edge. And that's an average shot for such a character.

With edge, he could potentially (with a little luck) take on a force 10 spirit. With a sniper rifle it would be even worse, or maybe an assault cannon. And yeah, those are the kind of weapons I think is needed against such powerful spirits who supposedly have "immunity to normal weapons."

Just to point out, I tend not to use many high force spirits in my game as mages seldom risk oversummoning.
FrankTrollman
You do realize that it is only net hits which add to DV, right? So in your example, the average character with Automatics 6, Agility 9, and a Smart Link rolls nearly 6 hits. The Spirit rolls 10 dice or more as a defense pool and averages over 3 hits. Assuming it all rounds in the Street Sam's favor he gets 3 Net Hits on average. And that's not enough to penetrate the ItNW of the Force 8 spirit.

Your example actually demonstrates the very explicit need for people to be able to called shot spirits. Force 8 isn't outside the realm of possibility for a starting chaarcter, and you were already trotting out a ridiculously far fetched shooter - who still is insufficient without the called shot bonus that he is by the rules entitled to.

-Frank
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
You do realize that it is only net hits which add to DV, right? So in your example, the average character with Automatics 6, Agility 9, and a Smart Link rolls nearly 6 hits. The Spirit rolls 10 dice or more as a defense pool and averages over 3 hits. Assuming it all rounds in the Street Sam's favor he gets 3 Net Hits on average. And that's not enough to penetrate the ItNW of the Force 8 spirit.

Your example actually demonstrates the very explicit need for people to be able to called shot spirits. Force 8 isn't outside the realm of possibility for a starting chaarcter, and you were already trotting out a ridiculously far fetched shooter - who still is insufficient without the called shot bonus that he is by the rules entitled to.

-Frank

I admit, good points about the defense, I have become used to my PC's suprising the enemy, which in turn recieves no defense roll at all!

And really... 15 dice is hardly a ridiculously far detched shooter - It's a Street Samurai with his best shooting skill (a 5, + specialization), combined with agility 6+ (easy to achieve even for humans with bioware) and of course the ubiquitous smartlink. For a 400BP street samurai I would say that would be typical.

Even the archtype street sammie has 14 dice!

However I will consider allowing the call shot still. Since I don't allow called shot without aim actions, they have become rare enough in a firefight anyway.

Now try to convince me why I should let tasers work on hardened armor and spirits!
Jaid
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Now try to convince me why I should let tasers work on hardened armor and spirits!

because immunity to normal weapons is presumably talking about normal weapons, and not about passing a powerful electrical charge (enough to short out a car just from hitting it's body) through it?

if a magician hits the spirit with an indirect electricity damage effect (which is treated as a normal attack, not as a spell) then would you have immunity to normal weapons kick in? if not, then why is it so wrong when someone hits the spirit with a powerful electrical attack from another source?
Tarantula
Good point Jaid. So adepts with the elemental strike power get all the secondary benefits of their elemental attack as well as not caring about ItNW?
Jaid
my point was not that electrical damage should bypass immunity to normal weapons entirely, but rather that it's not such a horrible thing that electrical (and other elemental) damage has a built-in mechanic that allows it to be much more effective against immunity to normal weapons.

which is why you need pitchforks *and* torches for a good angry peasant mob, just in case the enemy is immune to the pitchforks you have a backup plan (after all, that's the proper response to any sort of horribly unnatural creature attacking a village, is it not?) wink.gif

(that being said, elemental strike has killing hands as a required power first, so adepts with elemental strike do ignore ItNW... but mainly because of killing hands, not because of elemental strike)
Tarantula
Doesn't mean they have to use killing hands.
WearzManySkins
IIRC Synner has laid to rest the Stick and Shock and Electrical Damage being usued against a Spirit.

No effect, spirits have no central nervous system, muscles to overload etc.

They also do not technically have vehicle type of armor, so APDS which is designed specifically for vehicle hardened armor and personal armor, will have little effect also.

WMS
Buster
I totally agree with Synner, it makes no sense for APDS and shock weapons to work on spirits (except with the Ghostbusters angle on shock weapons). So iIf APDS ammo and shock weapons have no effect on spirits, is there anything a mundane can do against a force 8+ spirit besides speed-dial his mage friend?
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