Hey the mage in my group asked if he could summon a spirit of man, and ask it to cast a spell on him (such as improved reflexes), then sustain it. Thus instead of asking it to sustain a spell you cast yourself (which it will only do for a few rounds), you get it to sustain it's own spell (which it can do as long as it's not disrupted, at least until dusk or dawn.

Or you could get it to cast fireballs on your enemies - even if it's a favor per ball, it still means the mage doesen't need to soak the 8 damage or something.

So is this allowed or have we misread something?

it is allowed. it has been suggested that a service be expended at sunrise and sunset, but still allowed.

it is worth noting that the spirit in question will be at -2 while it is sustaining the spell, and of course it has to have the spell as an innate spell in the first place, but otherwise it works (note: passing through a ward will still likely disrupt the spell, which will cost another service to get the spirit to replace it in addition to getting the spirit to use a metaplanar shortcut, which will cost a service also iirc).

casting fireball specifically would be an individual service per fireball. "burn my enemies" would, however, be a single service, which the spirit would most likely accomplish using the fireball spell (provided it's a spirit of man, that is) =P

Alright. Then I don't understand that using a spirit to sustain YOUR spell counts as a service for every (sprit force) combat turns, while if you use it to cast the spell for you, it can sustain that spell for the whole day! Doesen't that seem weird to you?

Oh, and another question: Can a summoner summon a spirit, send it on remote service (kill mr. x), summon a new one, cleanse and repeat until exhausted?

Well, remember, a spirit can sustain any spell of the correct category that you cast for Force combat rounds, however when you use a service to get it to cast the spell you are limited to the one or two spells you give it, it takes a -2, it is limited by its own casting pool, and the spirit chooses the force, which would presumably usually be it's force or force -1. You can't drop the spell immediately in the face of magical inspection(Lone Star probably doesn't approve of people running around with Combat Sense and/or Improved Reflexes working on them all the time) or if you notice a ward and are about to pass through it, but need to drop your spell. It is alot of little stuff, but basically you trade versatility for ease of use.

Chris

Also keep in mind a spirit can only affect non-astral things while manifested. This means a burst from an Ares Alpha can put a hurting on them. After all, they get free armor but are not actually IMMUNE to bullets...

Very good point kyoto kid. Hermetics have spirits of man as their health spirit too. That means conjure one, and have it heal you for every damage you take, it eats the drain. Sounds good to me.

DT: Actually, a clever summoner will specify the minimum force required for the Innate Spell. You can order a spirit to overcast a spell, even.

KK: In my experience, I've yet to see anyone not bind their max in spirits. In fact, the only change from 3rd to 4th I've seen in this regard is that now, the Watcher Attack Pack strategy is open to everyone, not just Hermetics. Granted, now that Watchers are caped at Force 1, it's not as scary as it was before. However, 5 watchers plus 5 other spirits plus an Ally and maybe a projecting mage adds up in a hurry.

And this is why Hedge Witches are DANGEROUS. Channeling + Invoking + Plant Spirit = bad freaking news.

Chris

added bonus: the irony of becoming a literal hedge witch by channeling a plant spirit.

Ok, ty for responses guys

...OK,let me see if I have this right.

The Spirit has an effective 14 armour due to it's "immunity" to normal weapons.

You use (if you can get it) APDS which drops the spirit's armour by -4 to 10. That part I get.

An Alpha's base DV is 7 which is still 3 under the spirits armour without the called shot.

...so far so good but here's where I am at a bit of a loss...

A called shot drops your DP by the target's Armour. For attacking the spirit is that -7 or is it -14 from your DP to hit (as the armour against normal weapons is doubled)?

So here's Markova (alas #17) with a total 15 DP. If indeed the Spirit's hardened armour total subtracts from her pool she has only 1 die to attack with. Not very good odds.

Now granted a force 7 spirit is pretty extreme. As a PC the toughest I have seen are in the force 5 - 6 range which, with a PJSS and EXEX (pre FAQ), were hittable without needing to resort to a called shot.

I had the players roll to recruit an NPC for a job and the player got an insane number of successes(he's a mini-social adept and he used his 6 freaking edge on the roll too, ended up with like 12 successes for it) so since they were looking for a combat monster I made a 400 BP one up really quick, a Mr. Lucky the Gunner type character with a dice pool of 15 in automatics. He had been forewarned against possible magical backup, and when the mage ordered his F6 earth spirit to come after the other two members of the team, they yelled for help and he rolled around the corner, popped out a clip of gel, slapped in a clip of APDS and let loose with his gyroharness mounted white knight.(snuck harness and weapon in luggage through front door, went to the restroom, hacker cut the cameras while he loaded up and they took the freaking elevator to this placee.) A long narrow burst with APDS, I think the final damage total was like 14P or so the spirit had to soak. It was not happy, another burst later and it was dead. Just requires the right equipment.

Chris

...@DTFarstar: Yeah, but that was an NPC who doesn't have to really worry about the availability cap at Chargen, or for that matter, availability at all. I'm looking at a PC mundane spirit killer. So far the best I could come up with is one who uses a PJSS with EXEX, which under the FAQ ruling is sufficient to disrupt a force 5 or lower spirit. Yeah a Walther 2100 with EXEX can basically do the same job but the PJSS is much more stylin plus harder to soak the damage down from as (with EXEX) it starts at 10DV. The only thing better for dishing out big D is a Panther XXL (still 10 DV but a whopping -5 AP) or a shoulder launched rocket/missile.

[edit]

@ FrankTrollman: However, as I mention above an "out of the box" character cannot get APDS unless she has a really generous Johnson (availbility of 16F). The best ammo you can get at Chargen by the rules is EXEX.

I did just re-read the rules regarding the called shot option again and I stand corrected on the modifier (Targeting a vital area). I was under the impression you always had to bypass the target's armour value. Admittedly, haven't played 4E enough yet or I'd be having Markova #18 do this a lot more.

So then for my character with the PJSS, he could disrupt a force 7 (without APDS):

PJSS 9DV/-1AP + EXEX +1DV/-1AP, + Called Shot +4DV/-4 to DP (16 base) which drops the force 7 spirit's armour to 12 against a 14DV. And he still has 12 dice in his pool.

Now I think I have it.

*shrug* White Knight is avail 12F, Gyro - Stabilization is 7, It has a Gas Vent 5 on it already, I just gave him APDS because it was the best and this wasn't their first run, but even Ex-Ex makes the White Knight do 7 with -2 AP, the net hit needed to hit makes you ignore hardened armor of 10 or more, and with that set-up you can full narrow burst for an extra *9* and not take any recoil. So, Force 9 spirits are ok out of the box.

Chris

...but a force 9 would have 18 armour the -2AP drops that to 16 so you need 10 net hits (6 if you use the called shot which with a reduced DP are not all that easy to get).

Frank, am I that correct that you double the spirit's armour before applying the weapon's AP modifier?

Hmm, I'm not even sure you SHOULD be able to call shot a spirit for extra damage - after all even in physical form a fire elemental might not have ekstra vulnerable areas to aim for...

But otherwise, APDS does the trick.

Where does it say that narrow burst doesn't effect the DV for the purpose of ignoring INW? I mean, if it doesn't then I really need to reconsider alot of mine and my players anti-spirit tactics.

Chris

Well, crap, I completely missed that. Multiple times. Huh. Well, that changes a LOT in my games. Suddenly spirits are alot more dangerous. Also, I don't really understand the idea behind it.

Chris

For hardened armor, use wide bursts, which make the defender lose dice, thus increasing your net hits (and thus DV).

*nods at kzt* especially with explosive or ex-ex rounds. Huh...

Anyway, my thinking is if this is supposed to be treated like "if one bullet doesn't penetrate then why would the others?" then each bullet should be truly treated seperately. So, a successful long burst would make someone resist 6P 6 times. If you are just incrementally adding to the DV then I personally saw that as a tight enough grouping to add to the penetrating power of the first or do more damage to already traumatized(and in the case of P damage maybe not existing tissue.) I guess I have a visualization and logic difference with the designers at this point.

Chris

The mechanics used by HERO for autfire have some advantages (every 2 under the required to-hit is another hit, each facing the full defense) but I can't think of a good way to apply them using SR's 'hits add to DV' approach.

if APDS working is not a problem, then what is your problem with tasers or called shots?

and anyways, called shots aren't going to help against powerful spirits if you're using a holdout... it will let you actually damage a reasonably powerful spirit (for example, a force 4), but it doesn't do much against a force 6 or a force 8 (would need 4 net hits against force 6, or 8 against the force 8 iirc) which is what i tend to think of when i hear people talking about "powerful" spirits.

not that force 4 is weak (indeed, compared to the average person they're quite powerful) but they aren't really going to be all that horribly rare either, whereas something like force 8 is imo much more likely to be considered a really powerful spirit...

I think a good example of a called shot on a spirit is when Wolf is trying to help Doc Raven fight that big golden kitty. Didn't matter if there were bones there or not, structurally it would be weaker.

Chris

Well I allow adding net hits to damage. Any more I think is unbalanced.

You do realize that it is only net hits which add to DV, right? So in your example, the average character with Automatics 6, Agility 9, and a Smart Link rolls nearly 6 hits. The Spirit rolls 10 dice or more as a defense pool and averages over 3 hits. Assuming it all rounds in the Street Sam's favor he gets 3 Net Hits on average. And that's not enough to penetrate the ItNW of the Force 8 spirit.

Your example actually demonstrates the very explicit need for people to be able to called shot spirits. Force 8 isn't outside the realm of possibility for a starting chaarcter, and you were already trotting out a ridiculously far fetched shooter - who still is insufficient without the called shot bonus that he is by the rules entitled to.

-Frank

Good point Jaid. So adepts with the elemental strike power get all the secondary benefits of their elemental attack as well as not caring about ItNW?

my point was not that electrical damage should bypass immunity to normal weapons entirely, but rather that it's not such a horrible thing that electrical (and other elemental) damage has a built-in mechanic that allows it to be much more effective against immunity to normal weapons.

which is why you need pitchforks *and* torches for a good angry peasant mob, just in case the enemy is immune to the pitchforks you have a backup plan (after all, that's the proper response to any sort of horribly unnatural creature attacking a village, is it not?)

(that being said, elemental strike has killing hands as a required power first, so adepts with elemental strike do ignore ItNW... but mainly because of killing hands, not because of elemental strike)

Doesn't mean they have to use killing hands.

IIRC Synner has laid to rest the Stick and Shock and Electrical Damage being usued against a Spirit.

No effect, spirits have no central nervous system, muscles to overload etc.

They also do not technically have vehicle type of armor, so APDS which is designed specifically for vehicle hardened armor and personal armor, will have little effect also.

WMS

I totally agree with Synner, it makes no sense for APDS and shock weapons to work on spirits (except with the Ghostbusters angle on shock weapons). So iIf APDS ammo and shock weapons have no effect on spirits, is there anything a mundane can do against a force 8+ spirit besides speed-dial his mage friend?