 Innate spell - broken?, Sunstaining.. drain... etc. |
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 Oct 8 2007, 07:04 PM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
Anti-vehicular rockets, explosives, hiding behind wards.
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Oct 8 2007, 07:08 PM
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#52
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Having actually written the Street Magic Spirit section, I am unaware of Synner ever having said any of that. I am aware that he said that a Spirit's lack of nervous system should make them immune to the disorientation effect of shock weapons. As far as I know, they still do damage. And AP rounds work fine against spirits. It's just another way to have a more damaging attack. If it makes you feel any better - AP rounds are probably made out of URanium in the future,a nd Uranium is confirmed to get "all screwy" with spirits. -Frank |
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Oct 8 2007, 07:27 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Mmmm..... DUDSAP rounds. (Depleted Uranium Discarding Sabot Armor Piercing.)
Chris |
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Oct 8 2007, 08:59 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
also, iirc, synner didn't make a ruling on anything, he gave a suggestion of how he would handle things. it wasn't a clarification, errata, and i don't think it's in the FAQ.
synner's words should really only be taken to be official changes when he is acting in his capacity as line developer... and sometimes, he's just another poster on dumpshock giving advice and such. (perhaps he should adopt something similar to the mod's colored posts to let us know when he's making an official statement =P ) |
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Oct 8 2007, 09:11 PM
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#55
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@FrankTrollman My mistake it was Rob Boyle from this thread http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=17939&hl=
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Oct 8 2007, 09:25 PM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
so, based on rob's ruling, spirits never have their armor reduced, except when it's ignored completely by magical attacks (because apparently normal means nonmagical)...
sounds like an absolutely terrible idea to me. may as well just throw APDS back into the trashcan if we're gonna do that... because hey, it's not regular armor, so why should APDS do anything to them? of course, by the same token, positive AP shouldn't be added in, so now let's bust out the new spirit hunting ammo... flechette! also, why should spirits even have stun tracks! may as well just make them like vehicles, because how do you stun something that doesn't have a nervous system? how are you gonna punch something into unconsciousness when it doesn't have a normal anatomy, it's just a blob of spirit material :sarcasm: (in case my sarcasm isn't coming through, i'd like to make it clear: that sounds like a spectacularly bad ruling to me, and i wouldn't use it in a million years, because of the implications attached to it. i wouldn't even use it if it *did* make it into the FAQ or even the errata, which it hasn't to my knowledge) |
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Oct 8 2007, 09:45 PM
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#57
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@Jaid
In that thread it was mentioned until it makes it way into a FAQ or Errata, no matter what a Freelancer or Developer says in forums or in email, it is still not official WMS |
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Oct 8 2007, 09:50 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Erhh... you mean APDSDU used today with tank guns? As for the electrical thingy, I don't see why spirits should be more vulnerable to nonmagical electrical attacks than anything else. Ruling out ALL kinds of armor piercing might be overkill, even though they may not make sense. And I don't like the "oh no a super powerful spirit! Let's dump our assault cannons for a minute and pull out our 100 nuyen handheld tasers, only they are powerful enough to take on a force 12 spirit!" I don't see why flechette shouldn't work as good on spirits as normal bullets though. Well, at least not if they actually have a magical reistance to weapons and not just extremely tough skin (like an armored truck has). And I'm not certain that out of the box starting character SHOULD be able to handle a force 12 spirit with only mundane weapons. Without armor piercing they could still beat off force 6 at least. And a GM that sends a force 12 spirit on a fresh group might as well send a bunch of Tir Ghost backed by snipers and call it a day. And you're forgetting an option: Attack of will. Suddenly the pornomancer becomes useful in fighting spirits! |
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Oct 8 2007, 10:06 PM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Wow, according to that ruling, a Force 8 guardian spirit is an incredible threat to a party no matter what. INW - 8, Willpower - 8, Counterspelling - 8. Have fun getting your stunbolt resisted by 16 dice.
Chris EDIT: The only time I've read about them, they were referred to as DUDSAP and used in anti-vehicle rifles, but I don't have a reference anywhere for that. I just remembered the DUDSAP because I thought it sounded cool. |
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Oct 8 2007, 10:33 PM
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#60
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Rob's ruling doesn't seem to be very considered or thought out in this case.
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Oct 9 2007, 06:12 AM
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#61
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
And considering that it didn't even get into the optional rules of Street Magic, I think it's pretty clear that he subsequently reconsidered. -Frank |
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Oct 9 2007, 06:27 AM
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#62
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Regardless, I'm at least making tasers not halve armor on spirits (unless worn armor on flesh forms of course). I'm still not sure about stick'n shock, after all they are expensive and probably deliver their current without penetrating.
But to you technical people, what really happens of you fire a y2k taser at a Bradley IFV? Or a typical sedan? If a normal car can endure being hit be lightening, why not tasers or stun batons? |
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Oct 9 2007, 11:55 AM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Depends on if you deliver the charge to the frame which would then ground out through the tires - worst case scenario melting your tires - or if you deliver the charge close enough to the on board computer to actually fry it and shut down the car, you would need a direct hit to the engine or something close to that.
Chris |
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Oct 9 2007, 08:27 PM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Sounds like a case of "hit right and it might work." Which basically is like shooting someone with a light pistol. Thus I think I don't want to halve armor before seeing if it penetrates hardened armor, but afterwards I can let it halve it. To be fair I'd have to do the same to Lightning bolt/ball as well though! |
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Oct 9 2007, 08:44 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Not if you think about it, the jolt from your average taser is nothing even remotely close to the jolt from lightning. One might fry your nerves enough to knock you down, the other might not kill you. Lightning has enough energy to cleave O2 into free radicals and create ozone. It is CRAZY powerful no matter whether it kills you or not. People survive getting hit by lightning, people ignore getting hit by a taser.
Chris |
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Oct 9 2007, 09:34 PM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I haven't heard of many people who are able to ignore getting hit by tasers. They're able to walk away 30 seconds after the juice is cut off, but when hit they generally go down. |
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Oct 9 2007, 10:40 PM
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#67
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Ok, well, you know what I meant, and the one time I got hit by a police taser in class it hurt like hell but didn't drop me, but I am a complete freak of nature(literally, several one in a million genetic mutations) so I guess we can't go by me. Civilian legal tasers don't even bother me, neither does pepper spray... huh, I would be a really good mugger/rapist..... Anyway, ok, So, people survive lightning, and people are staggered by tasers.
Chris |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:41 AM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I know lightning is alot more powerful than a mere tasers in electrical energy, but as you said most cars are designed to simply divert the current into the their tires/ground. Which is why I said vehicles and drones could be completely unharmed by being hit by a magical lightening bolt. (drones might work completely different, but let's call it abstract - most drones doesen't have that much armor to begin with, and a normal taser (DV8) could easily penetrate armor 9 (a lynx) without halving anything. As could a Magic 5 mage casting lightening bolt. And don't you think a 150 nuyen taser should have a hard time taking on a 2.3 million nuyen thunderbird? If you let it halve hardened armor then only 2-3 normal grunts with tasers and SS could take it down in one round! |
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Oct 10 2007, 06:13 AM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Cars are not designed to, but the skin effect typically means the current doesn't travel through the passenger compartment. But any electrical charge that can cross miles of air can go damn near anywhere if it feels like it.
A taser won't do squat, way too little energy. |
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Oct 10 2007, 12:52 PM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
You're thinking of the Hardened Armor power, not the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. Those two powers are distinct for a reason. APDS and shock weapons do NOT affect creatures with Immunity to Normal Weapons. For people who haven't read the book in a while, here's the rule:
Now if you wanted to go Ghostbusters, you can houserule that you tweak your shock weapons to resonate with the psychoelectric ectoplasmic form of the spirit, thereby disrupting it. You can also houserule that your ammo is made from orichalcum or lunargent or some other exotic material that affects Immunity to Normal Weapons. |
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Oct 10 2007, 12:54 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Thanks, kzt. Yeah, cars are not designed to ground out through the tires, that is just what happens because it's a big metal shell with rubber on the bottom. Yeah, a taser in today's world would have no chance against a car unless you actually attached it TO a part of the computer or directly next to it. However, I've got to assume that tasers become alot more lethal in 2070 because it does double the damage of a light pistol. Now, I've never worn kevlar and then gotten shot with like a Colt 1911 or any other light-ish pistol but I've seen the bruising that results from it and heard stories of it penetrating anything. I've seen taser burns and taken a taser hit myself and several civilian legal taser hits. Not even remotely comparable. The only damage from the taser was a tiny burn spot and one guy bruised his knee when he fell down. No so with the whole getting shot in the vest thing so I'm assuming that to bring the tasers charge up to triple shock = fatal they ramp the power up on them a ton so I dunno.
Anyway, with todays cars and so many of them being plastic alloys and composites that don't conduct electricity, lightning would probably just melt a hole in a newer car till it hit a still metal part then ground out, but it would have a much better chance messing a new car up than an old one. Actually, come to think of it, can vehicles take stun damage? They don't have a stun damage track so shouldn't gel rounds, tasers, etc. bounce off no matter what? It doesn't make sense for them to convert up. Especially gel rounds, designed not to penetrate human skin they won't have a chance on even your average car window. Huh.... Chris |
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Oct 10 2007, 01:09 PM
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#72
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
If tasers have become more lethal then they are certainly less useful. Increasignt their intensity to compensate for a troll's mass is understandable (and may, as an unavoidable side-effect, harm human-sized targets more), but a taser is a very inefficient way of inflicting lethal attacks compared to a bullet.
You have an interesting idea of rating weapons if a .45 is a 'light-ish pistol. |
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Oct 10 2007, 03:48 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i'm thinking of both. if your definition of 'distinct' is that 'one explicitly uses the rules from the other', then i suppose you could call them distinct. i wouldn't. and like i said, i'm not advocating the removal of immunity to normal weapons from applying to electrical and other elemental based attacks, i'm just advocating that the AP modification from those attacks applies towards immunity to normal weapons. |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:44 PM
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#74
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so basically, nothing mundane, not even a Thor Shot™ can take out a spirit because it is not magically powered? Now that does make spirits a helluva lot nastier in relation to the mundane world, since only a very small segment of the population can deal with them. |
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Oct 10 2007, 05:53 PM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
see, the thing is, mundane weapons *can* hurt them. it's not really immunity, it's just extreme resistance =P a thor shot most likely does at *least* 50P damage, i'm sure (probably more likely in the 100s) which means that it can damage any spirit of force 25 or less, presumably =P |
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