 Innate spell - broken?, Sunstaining.. drain... etc. |
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 Oct 10 2007, 05:55 PM
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#76
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548  |
I've always thoughts that ItNW was in fact a level of resistance against mundane damage.
Such that one could take a gun and if one shot well enough, one *might* hurt a spirit. But if one were to physically attack said spirit with the same level of effort and success as was put into shooting the spirit, the spirit would be a world of hurt due to the "Attack of Will" that negates ItNW. |
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Oct 10 2007, 06:13 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I said light-ish. The one 1911 I ever fired had significantly less penetrating power than most of the other .45's we had available, maybe ours was faulty, I don't know. I'm not a gun expert, I just live in the southern US. I just assumed it had something to do with the modeling of the gun itself. Anyway
The thing is, in Shadowrun, it isn't. The only reason I can think of for that is that they significantly ramp up the voltage/amperage on them to the point where it is near lethal. Take this example - Average Joe Ganger in an Armor Jacket, Body 3, Armor 8/6. Shoot him 4 times with a Predator, we'll assume minimum skill needed to hit so 1 net success. Pred 6P AP -1 so Joe has to resist 6S(Armor 7 converts it down) with 10 dice, so average soak of 3, Joe takes 3 S 4 times and with a stun track of 10(willpower 3) takes 2 physical as he falls unconscious. Shoot him 4 times with a Defiance EX-Shocker, minimum skill. Defiance 8S AP -half so Joe has to resist 8S with 6 dice. So average soak of 2, Joe takes 24S damage, with overflows his stun track by 14, with a body of three it also overflows his physical track and kills him. This goes in the other direction with less armor, but the more armored a target is, the better a taser is than a bullet for killing it. So, since this is NOT the case in real life... They have done something in the next 63 years to change tasers from what we know. Chris |
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Oct 10 2007, 08:18 PM
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#78
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Well if a shooter is shooting a Ares SuperSquirt loaded with Narcojet 10S. Unless the target has chemical protection or chemical seal, he has to reduce the 10 stun, at best a average person can reduce it to 7 stun. Targets armor does not figure into the reduction on his resistance on the toxin test.
I seem to recall in previous edition of SR squirt guns that could fire in burst or FA, now that would be nice. To me electro stun devices/bullets etc will have no effect on a manifesting spirit, the same for APDS rounds. Yes a spell lightening bolt would effect them but none of the secondary effects would. What does that mean, you had better have a mage or two, in your part when a enemy spirit manifests to kick your hoop, or some serious firepower. WMS |
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Oct 10 2007, 08:34 PM
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#79
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...well taking "the letter" of the rule quote above into account, unless it there is some kind of magical component to the attack it would just bounce no matter how powerful it is. On the other hand Hardened armour is affected by APDS, EXEX and weapon AP. Just playing the "DA" on this to get a better understanding for I see two different theories at work here. @WMS: That would be the Ares Cascade Rifle 3rd Ed CC. |
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Oct 10 2007, 08:48 PM
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#80
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Of course, the quote is taken out of context and is only a tiny subset of the Immunity power. Immunity as a whole covers a lot of things, and gives Hardened Armor vs. the thing the critter is immune to. Two specific types of immunity receive special mention. Immunity to Age gets mentioned because you can't give armor vs time. Immunity to Normal Weapons gets mentioned not because it fails to follow the standard hardened armor rules for Immunity, but because they needed to clarify what is meant by "Normal." That is the part being addressed by the Immunity to Normal Weapons subheading, not the "Immunity" part, that part is made quite clear by the general description of the Immunity power. It's all on pg 288, and all relevant powers are on the same page, no flipping required. |
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Oct 10 2007, 08:59 PM
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#81
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so, if it in effect only grants a spirit hardened armour, then my Dwarf hunter can tag a manifested force 7 spirit with his EXEX loaded PJSS while making a called shot? Yes? No? Perhaps? Not in a million billion zillion years?
...put a lot of time & thought into the character concept. |
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Oct 10 2007, 09:53 PM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Assuming you meant materialized, then yeah sure why not? Even if AP modifiers from the weapon and ammo does not count, your base damage with 1 net hit is 13 (both barrels, thus you need 2 net hits to damage (or destroy) it. If you allow AP, then you'd only need a single net hit. Heck, pre errata you could take on a force 8 spirit this way. I'm still undecided wether to allow AP modifiers to apply to Immunity at all. Then again Spirits are tough enough already, and letting APDS etc. work will give even security guards a chance against spirits (well mid-force ones at least). |
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Oct 10 2007, 09:55 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I would definitely say yes. Apparently a few people disagree with me. It gives immunity against all non-magical weapon, and immunity gives you hardened armor = to 2*magic
So, if it works against armor I would say it works against spirits with the exception of electrical secondary effects. Chris |
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Oct 10 2007, 10:12 PM
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#84
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I just want to be sure that my GM is on the same page (or at least know where that "page" is) before I introduce the character.
@FriendoftheDork: BTW I would think that using both barrels would count as burst fire since it is the additional round that ups the DV by +1 (which is why I never brought it up it in my posts). So with EXEX the DV would be 10, not 12. Without AP & the called shot modifier ("hit him in his mojo centre") , that would be sufficient to take down anything up to only a force 4. The one advantage the character may have for being able to using the called shot are his Knowledge: Spirits 4 and Magic Background 4 skill. |
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Oct 10 2007, 10:27 PM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
base DV of 10 is enough to damage a rating 5 spirit, because one net hit (required for you to actually be checking armor in the first place) brings the DV up to 11. burst-based DV is not added, but net hit-based DV is. |
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Oct 11 2007, 01:44 AM
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#86
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so, with his pool of 16 in Longarms (Sporting Rifles), he would effectively be able to tag a materialised force 6 spirit with some regularity (based on an average of 4 hits which would give him 3 net hits making it a 13DV).
Okay, I guess can live with that even without the -AP and called shot mod coming into play. :grinbig: ...just have to roll real good for those occasional force 7s that might pop up. |
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Oct 11 2007, 01:59 AM
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#87
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Occam's razor suggest to me that it's most likely because the designers hadn't a clue. Lots of things in SR make a lot more sense when you assume that they were idiocies that you should fix rather than features you should treasure. |
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Oct 11 2007, 03:38 AM
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#88
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
OK, well, the only reason BESIDES assuming the designers are idiots where guns are concerned. KK is FotD your GM? I just ask because I'm curious. You seem to weight his answers heavier than most others and I was wondering if you just respected him or if he actually held some power over you.
Chris |
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Oct 11 2007, 03:48 AM
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#89
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Nope, nobody in my gaming group hangs out here. Though one or two looks around from time to time. It's probably just more of "great minds think alike". :D
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Oct 11 2007, 04:11 AM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Well, I meant Kyoto Kid(Hence the KK) but that is good to know. I am also the only one from my gaming group to hang around here. One is too busy on movie and video game forums, another is too busy writing english papers(english major that takes like 6 days to write a damn paper- poor bastard) and the other two are in Europe right now.
Chris |
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Oct 11 2007, 05:27 AM
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#91
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...only if I had billions of Frequent Flier miles. I believe he lives in Europe (judging by the location on his profile) and I'm half a world away here in Portland TT...er...Orygun (didn't see a response on the Demographics thread to confirm this). As to weighting his answers, I didn't realise I was doing so. He has made some pretty good points in the past, some of which have led me to rethink and research things more, and yes, I do respect that. :) |
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Oct 11 2007, 05:36 AM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
K, just wondering since I had no idea where exactly your location was and you mentioned asking your GM then seemed to agree with him when he responded. Just wondering, thanks for the information.
Chris |
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Oct 11 2007, 08:39 AM
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#93
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Could point about the secondary shot, I agree it should count as "burst fire" for the purpose of armor penetration. And BTW thanks for the respect ;) Yeah I live in Norway, so unless you guys want to spend 2k dollars to come here to play.... My players don't frequent these forums, and only one of them has recently become aware of it. And since I've banned him from reading my AAR (because of potential spoilers), there is not so much of interest for him here. Me, well I love discussing RPG rules, get ideas to my campaign and learn the rules better. This place is great, and I find the posters here alot more intelligent and mature than players on other RPG forums I used to hang out on (notably WotC). |
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Oct 11 2007, 08:45 AM
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#94
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I used to love in Norway, but it got too cold. :( |
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Oct 11 2007, 08:53 AM
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#95
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Actually loving keeps you warm over here ;) |
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Oct 11 2007, 09:00 AM
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#96
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
True enough, but since I'm not nearly good-looking enough to make a living out of it, there are times when the cold still applies. ;)
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Oct 11 2007, 02:58 PM
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#97
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...will be in Europe next summer, but alas, Scandinavia is not on the itinerary. :(
...would be kinda cool to drop in on a session though as I have pretty much everything in PDF format. :grinbig: |
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Oct 11 2007, 02:59 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Exchanges like that are why I am glad I found this place. You guys amuse the hell out of me.
Chris |
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Oct 11 2007, 03:44 PM
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#99
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Hey cool. Hmm, I think it's weird that you guys think of going to europe as if going to a bunch of homogenous nations :P Which country are you going to? There's a vast difference between say, Greece and Norway. Oh and it's not so cold here in the summer anyway, at least not in Oslo. |
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Oct 11 2007, 03:50 PM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Hey, the majority of Americans can't even find their own country on a map, much less the continent of Europe. *weeps for the education system* Hmm... new topic time, methinks. How well educated is the average citizen in the Sixth World? |
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